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[Niko45]

mad fake .

 

[SwiftBass]

ooh puff talk. P with teh marth?

I like fighting Jiggs with marth/fox

 

[Strong Badam]

And after looking at those hitbox/hurtbox animations, it seems like either marth should be grabbed or hit. And that's what I'm not getting. Marth's grab will hit towards the center of his body along with his dtilt. Height might be an issue for the grab, but I cannot see why Dtilt is not making contact.

Marth leans forward during his grab. Dtilt's hitboxes are only attached to the sword. I can make a GIF or something when I get back in town on Sunday.

 

[knightpraetor]

I played Hbox's Puff some with Marth yesterday and won more than I lost I believe(it was friendlies though so take it for what you will...we weren't goofing off though lol).

I dunno if anyone has any questions about the matchup but juggling Puff is amazing and as long as you're patient it's super ****. Also stage control is the entire matchup it feels like.

I always JC my grabs and didn't get punished for it too hard(never rested). It's definitely more of a when Puff is shielding type deal instead of when Puff's in lag because she can somehow crouch out of lag. <.<

Ftilt and Fsmash are amazing. The old school dash away then WD in Fsmash works well I've found and coming in harder with Ftilt is cool due to its range(especially while egdeguarding).

Dtilt is cool for catching Puff out of landing lag and conditioning her to shield. Dtilt also leads to grabs or popping Puff up for juggling(they have to jump away to avoid getting hit more).


Not sure if this is all common knowledge but Hbox asked me why my Marth was better than M2K's lol so I figure I'd share here if it can help Marth **** more. =)

hmm, are you saying you only start grabbing if you see them using shield too much?
and yeah dtilt ***** landing lag..it's just a really safe way to ensure that puff isn't staying on the ground too much

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well you typically have to grab Puff in landing lag or when she's moving around on the ground(aka OOS pretty much) but when I played Hbox I didn't try to grab all that much because he wasa always trying to get away from me. He cared more about jumping away than risking being scared on the ground so I just swung at him more. That's kind of the dynamic of the matchup as far as grabbing goes. Most Marths like to grab, so most Puffs would want to jump away or duck.

 

[Dart!]

Peepee gives good advice for marth, all the while being a falco player. i approve.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

What can I do about getting endlessly UThrow->Uair Juggled by Fox?

 

[knightpraetor]

Umm I very rarely dash attacked unless I knew he was gonna try to WD OOS or retreat right after landing with an aerial, and then it's great. That was incredibly sparing for me though.

Grab heavy game sucks vs her for sure.

Honestly I think the dtilt is crucial. Without dtilt they can just mix in crouch instead of shield and it becomes dangerous but if you mostly use dtilt to keep them off the ground it becomes manageable.

However, the thing that bothers me is the fact that you didn't dash attack.

I watched you play 4 hrs of marth vs jiggs against mahone when you were learning the matchup, and you used undershot dash attack so much to punish if they approached, but I'm guessing hungrybox never approaches/ doesn't use a heavy ground game but i dunno.

the great thing about undershot dash attack is that if you hit you get at least 2-3 hits, but at low percent the best the jiggs can do is bair and get one hit (which is often CCable), while there is no real danger of the jiggs running in and grabbing (undershooting dash attack gets you ***** if fox/falco are just standing out of range..they can just run in and grab so easily).

How would you describe hungrybox's style? does he tend to just single short hops/landing a lot? or does he use many jumps and try to just space aerials?

and does he approach and move out of shield a lot? Because it's when jiggs mix up shield and crouch approaches that i have difficulty if i start forgetting to dtilt..but the thing is if you dtilt from a safe range you can pressure her and force a jump /roll

I'm guessing that after you condition her to shield you just occasionally don't dtilt at the proper range for the landing and then wait a sec and do a dash grab/pressure if you see the shield.

However, what i remember was the most interesting when watching you was how you pressured jiggs in the air. I wish i had vids, I can do that kind of stuff on FD, but you were doing it even better with platforms than without them. I think FD was your worst stage honestly when I watched.

by empty short hops, do you mean just jumping near enough to jiggs that the jiggs feels pressured to attack?

The thing is when I think about theoretically, in that situation, marth can jump back on reaction if the jiggs jumps to attack and fair, hitting the jiggs if the jiggs came in...if you keep floating towards them, eventually you should hit the range where you can fair them with your second jump or just swing when you get too close since you outrange jiggs. Honestly in theory mode, I don't see why the jiggs doesn't always come on stage facing backwards. it seems to improve her options signifcantly. Oh, but it takes an extra jump to turn around. and they don't like getting gimped. which is the same reason they don't perfect sweet spot from below the ledge. They waste two or three jumps getting to that spot and then if they get dtilted or hit they have very few jumpts to get back.

but yeah, does anyone know if marth's fair has frame advantage on jiggs bair and fair if they both start them on reaction as they come into range? (although technically the fair doesn't have the range so it's kind of irrelevant)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What can I do about getting endlessly UThrow->Uair Juggled by Fox?

1) Don't get grabbed
2) Smash DI Uair
3) Mix-up DI on the Uthrow
4) Fair fox out of his jump at lower percents from the Uthrow.

 

[MasterShake]

I was told to DI the uthrow behind and sdi the opposite way.

Still need to try that.

 

[Jun.]

I have to agree that a grab based offensive vs Puff is very risky with very little reward.

- We aren't even sure we can grab puff because of her (its?) crouch.
- If we whiff the grab we basically get rested.
- Options out of a throw are still limited even if we get the grab off

I would like to think that Marth has a clear advantage on most if not all stages when he's BELOW due to her subpar downward aerial priority however the majority of the matchup will probably be played face to face which basically makes puff unapproachable because of her damn bairs. Assuming that the Puff player doesn't make mistakes in the bair wall, the only vulverable time in my experience (which isn't that extensive) is the time right after the bair hitbox when Puff is not retreating back to her original position. The only issue is that Marth can't enter that zone with anything else other than a dash attack (which is very predictable) or a grab (risky). Because of this, the matchup is as Cactuar mentioned previously, Puff's bair vs Marth's Fair camping / retreating fairs until Marth has racked up enough damage to kill the atrocity with an utilt.

my 2c

This is how I generally view the matchup as a whole, feel free to constructively disagree so I can improve also:

From below: Advantage to Marth
On flat ground: Slight Advantage to Puff
Edgeguarding: Heavy Advantage to Puff (the determining factor)
Damage based Kills: Slight Advantage to Marth (due to stage selection)

 

[crush]

i was gonna attempt to di foxes uthrow behind and the first up air in the opposite direction, but the problem was i could never get grabbed. and i played like 4-5 different foxes at the tourney yesterday

 

[Wenbobular]

Either play better Foxes or like ... start winning tournaments haha
Being able to avoid grabs altogether vs Fox seems pretty **** <_<

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

I see some Marths just stand around and counter Fox's approaches with fair. My question is: How do you get the foxes to come to you?

 

[crush]

just ask them kindly

 

[Dart!]

LOL walk towards them then wavedash back. or dash to wavedash back. anticipate > create ****.

 

[Strong Badam]

apply pressure by being in range in general, if they retreating laser you and you predict it just **** them if you're close enough

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I see some Marths just stand around and counter Fox's approaches with fair. My question is: How do you get the foxes to come to you?

I like it when fox doesn't apply pressure. It's the super aggressive fox that I don't like.

 

[earla]

could someone explain this formula strongbad gave me? im not good with maths.

calculate frame advantage on shield with
shieldstun = floor{(4.45+damage)/2.235}

 

[Tee ay eye]

I see some Marths just stand around and counter Fox's approaches with fair. My question is: How do you get the foxes to come to you?

baiting them

getting close to them and them moving back

sooo like
dash dancing in a certain range
running into a certain range and then wavedashing back
shorthopping/wavelanding around in a certain range
whiffing a fair or nair in a certain range to bait them and then retreating when they try to approach
shielding in a certain range and then WDing back out of shield when they try to approach

 

[Strong Badam]

could someone explain this formula strongbad gave me? im not good with maths.

calculate frame advantage on shield with
shieldstun = floor{(4.45+damage)/2.235}

why did you post this in more than one character thread, instead of just PMing me? or posting it in one?

 

[earla]

had a look at dolphin slash's frame data.

hit: 5-10
invulnerable: 5

do we only get 1 frame of invincibility being on the 5th????

 

[Strong Badam]

yes, only 1 frame. since it's the first hit frame.... it's pretty significant.

 

[mers]

How much invincibility does Marth get from a perfect ledgedash? Can he safely shield? Buffer roll? Dtilt? Grab?

 

[crush]

I see some Marths just stand around and counter Fox's approaches with fair. My question is: How do you get the foxes to come to you?

You can offer the fox a treat or give it food and then when it goes to eat the food, run up and grab it

 

[MasterShake]

How much invincibility does Marth get from a perfect ledgedash? Can he safely shield? Buffer roll? Dtilt? Grab?

What I think is: Not much, I think so, I think so, no, and no.

 

[Jun.]

lol if Marth had an invincible dtilt or grab off a ledge dash, this game would turn into Brawl.

 

[Tee ay eye]

d-tilt comes out more slowly than jab, d-smash, and u-tilt

EDIT: d-tilt and grab come out on the same frame. jab, d-smash, and u-tilt, of course, are all faster.

Spoiler

but d-tilt has earlier IASA frames

 

[Dart!]

perfect waveland jab dashthrough pivot grab. do it.

 

[crush]

in marth dittos when they're at high percents i like to ledgedash reverse up b lol. otherwise i like ledgedash d smashing, ledgedash grab, ledgedash shield roll, etc

 

[Dart!]

ledgedash dsmash sucks vs aerial opponents...needs more forward b ledgestalling.

 

[Niko45]

dsmash sucks

yea .

 

[Dart!]

thank you...people need to lose the dsmash hype. if you can space the tipper on tech rolls then cool. if not. don't do it please.

 

[crush]

Lol when im hanging on the ledge marth isnt usually in the air

 

[OverLord]

I don't use DSmash. Ever. Period.

Never understood that hype thing about that.

 

[Divinokage]

Simple Mango used it and now everyone is like wtf dsmash.

 

[OverLord]

But Mango's Marth is like, I don't know. It's just Mango playing Marth.

 

[Teczer0]

I've seen Alu use it fairly well. It comes out really fast and KOs high.

But dtilt turn around regrab .... so yea... iunno.

 

[Dart!]

Simple Mango used it in recorded matches and now everyone is like wtf dsmash.

fixed for truthfulness

 

[Tee ay eye]

dmash *****
yall *****s are gay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaD_XQ2NyQc#t=14s