Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[KirbyKaze]

Fsmash is really good in some spots. Counter is generally the best when they have a lot of up B angle options but if you understand Fox's options well like Swift is saying there are times when Fsmash engulfs all options and it is good to know.

Fairing someone into the stage? At what percent is that techable? Not very high I don't think.

Why bother timing / spacing / setting up an F-smash to cover all options when, in any situation (where the opponent is below the stage, that is) that you could do that F-smash, you could also jump off and **** them? And you'd probably be invincible, so there's actually more room for error.

Fairing someone into the stage I dunno how high that is legitimate for. I would think it goes up to 60% (after the hit) but if I'm wrong and it's lower then whatever. At any rate, you can Side B anyway, after Fair becomes mediocre / useless, and even if they tech the Fair at certain heights, you can keep going anyway (because Up+B is fast and has a hitbox).

I'm also not sure why you'd F-smash over Jab in general, since Jab covers more, more easily, comes out faster, is easier to time, and forces a low recovery that you can then Up+B or do whatever you want against. And leaves you far less vulnerable for missing.

 

[DuckPimp]

what about when they are able to tech really well, you jab them, and they DI towards the stage?

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you jab them and they DI towards the stage, couldn't you keep jabbing them? I've seen Eggm in ancient videos get jabbed like 3-4 times as a result of him DIing really hard into the stage and then M2K would drop off, Up+B, and he'd be dead all the same...

 

[DuckPimp]

you mean out of the firefox/bird?

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's what this discussion is about and has been about for the last page or so, isn't it?

 

[DuckPimp]

yes. just making sure all the pretenses were being considered.

 

[SwiftBass]

early percents you can air dodge/illusion again. I think you have to be jabbing already to get him. i dun think jabbing on reaction is an option. I think m2k in those vids has an exceptional read on eggm. I've also seen many where he air dodges/side Bs and bests m2k on the exchange I think that perhaps its m2ks counter to eggms successful recoveries

 

[KirbyKaze]

Basically I think it's dangerous to start trying to punish low up B's with offstage edgeguarding on reaction. Side B needs a ton of attention, especially with people being amazing at shortening them these days, and the fact is if you get hit by a side B, you are getting *****. I really doubt people's ability to punish sudden low up B's where fox had all his options with offstage edgeguarding. You had to at least been leaning towards thinking he was going to do that. That's dangerous to do, because if you **** up and get hit by side B you are now getting *****. Prioritize side B, punish up B on reaction, and in low up B's case, the reaction tends to be punish with counter or fsmash if the angle suits it.

Almost every character edgeguards the space animals by preparing for the Side B preemptively (because it's the faster option) and then covering options of the Up B. The Up B has a massive startup time, and going low only exaggerates this weakness by limiting their recovery to only one direction (they can only go up). This allows a lot of reactionary edgeguards to work; the fact that you get ledge invincibility also allows for sloppy timing in a lot of these cases. With more characters than just Marth.

Furthermore, this talk about what one can and cannot do on reaction raises a few questions for me because I'm perplexed. If you have enough time to get positioned, ready, and poised for your F-smash, shouldn't you also have enough time to grab the edge and do something better? Grabbing the edge and doing moves from that spot, versus moving back to position for F-smash (and doing the actual F-smash) take a similar amount of time.

I will concede that Counter is braindead easy and only fails if the space animal does something amazing or you get poked in the tiny spot where Marth's shoe is vulnerable (which blows) but I'm still not buying the usefulness of F-smash (largely because I think it sucks and most Marths miss edgeguards by trying to do raw F-smashes like it's a good option).

 

[Niko45]

Can I get a link to m2k doing one of these edgeguards using the ledge on reaction?

Basically any time I've seen m2k using shenanigans from the ledge like side B into reverse up B or whatever he has already FORCED the spacie below stage.

You can get edgehogged off of trying to fair spacies into the stage with wall jump tech side b to ledge.

Fsmash is only good in certain situations, generally when they are farther away and you have solid time to react to angles.

 

[Winston]

I will concede that Counter is braindead easy and only fails if the space animal does something amazing or you get poked in the tiny spot where Marth's shoe is vulnerable (which blows) but I'm still not buying the usefulness of F-smash (largely because I think it sucks and most Marths miss edgeguards by trying to do raw F-smashes like it's a good option).

But the space animal doesn't even have to do something amazing. On FD and Dreamland, the angling is to get past it is pretty easy. On Yoshi's/FoD it's harder but still doable.

I mean you can get them with tricks like walkoff counter or edgehogging like you said, but still...

(Agreeing with you overall here; just wanted to stress this)

You can get edgehogged off of trying to fair spacies into the stage with wall jump tech side b to ledge.

You can just side B them a bunch of times until they lose too much height to do this. The side Bs into up B rinse and repeat is safe and reliable, at least on DL/Stadium when you can knock them under the stage with the up B.

And if we're talking about Fsmash as a good option, why is it better than dair?

 

[Niko45]

I was trying to get cute with not countering for a while but now I've just said **** it and gone back to countering and it's basically a 2 stock swing in my favor against every fox I've played...

They seriously don't get around counter (consistently) and I don't care who it is.

 

[SwiftBass]

I was trying to get cute with not countering for a while but now I've just said **** it and gone back to countering and it's basically a 2 stock swing in my favor against every fox I've played...

They seriously don't get around counter (consistently) and I don't care who it is.

counter is soo good and such an end all type deal.. smash DI'ing the hit and teching are soooo jank that the odds are GREATLY in foxes favor. Using counter is probly my fav thing to do with marth. such control.


and yeah I thought that in the post i was disagreeing with you were talking about counter on reaction, not dropping below the stage etc etc. droppping below the stage is pretty tough on reaction even on falco. I can get it on falcos every once in a while but fox, for get about it, unless I make the read.

 

[Ryucloud]

For some reason i think MArth on fox is even on pokemon stadium not only because of the platforms can be easily take all there options because of the edges is just like the ones on battle field and limits there recover options from when they go low i rather that a fox there than battle feild when they can run around for ever the less room the better

 

[crush]

I like dream land way better than stadium for Marth vs fox because on dl the ceilings uber high and edge guarding is super easy for me on that stage but on ps I die super early and I can't even see past the ledge so if theyre up-bing from under I just blindly walk off retreating Dair and if I mess cc d tilt

 

[Teczer0]

If you jab them and they DI towards the stage, couldn't you keep jabbing them? I've seen Eggm in ancient videos get jabbed like 3-4 times as a result of him DIing really hard into the stage and then M2K would drop off, Up+B, and he'd be dead all the same...

early percents you can air dodge/illusion again. I think you have to be jabbing already to get him. i dun think jabbing on reaction is an option. I think m2k in those vids has an exceptional read on eggm. I've also seen many where he air dodges/side Bs and bests m2k on the exchange I think that perhaps its m2ks counter to eggms successful recoveries

It never truly matters, I doubt tbh m2k had a good read in the way you say it though swift.

If they're in a position where they already firefoxed into a jab its really all up to the marth in that situation.

For instance say I've jabbed you out of firefox and you're at low percent. My initial reaction if I was playing would be jab the firefox then immediately crouch then jab again.

This will force one of 2 things, either Fox gets hits twice and falls below the stage. Or fox will airdodge onto the stage in attempt to stay alive.

The prior is easy as I feel most of us agree. The latter isn't much harder though. Its just that you'll whiff the jab then you can turn around or simply just grab in front of you to repeat the process.

Actually I find it funny you mention the lower percents. I feel its a much harder ordeal at the higher percents using jab. Imo the higher percents are where fsmash becomes a much better answer.

 

[Ryucloud]

I like dream land way better than stadium for Marth vs fox because on dl the ceilings uber high and edge guarding is super easy for me on that stage but on ps I die super early and I can't even see past the ledge so if theyre up-bing from under I just blindly walk off retreating Dair and if I mess cc d tilt

Different stages are just different strategies of getting the kill i agree dreamland is good to escape fox up air but to me at least i feel it takes more from marth he loses his combo platforms and gives more room to fox to run around and more approach options but that's just me. but for the edge guard situations i feel like marths need to remember the turn around back forward smash edge guard it better than the pretty counter edge guard

 

[SwiftBass]

Actually I find it funny you mention the lower percents. I feel its a much harder ordeal at the higher percents using jab. Imo the higher percents are where fsmash becomes a much better answer.

u mean fsmashing Firefox as opposed to jabbing it? not sure I understand.

 

[Wenbobular]

stuff stuff stuff

the spacy can on occasion sweet spot and dodge counter or even more rare tech counter.

stuff stuff stuff

The face that you think that it's "on occasion" means most spacies still blow at recovering

I give up, even the good Foxes seem to suck at angling / recovering anyways, so whatever -_-

Just don't be like "wtf how is he doing that" when you find a Fox that is consistently angling past ****ty onstage counter / Fsmash attempts on FD / FoD / DL64 because it's really not that hard

 

[Niko45]

if it ain't broke don't fix it

 

[Wenbobular]

Eventually I assume Foxes will be competent enough to do it consistently (considering I'm bad and I can do it pretty consistently <_<)

What will you do then when your most relied upon tools for edgeguarding Foxes from below is now broken <_<

Although I still can't fault you because Foxes suck
Godammit.

O hey I have premium again

 

[Teczer0]

u mean fsmashing Firefox as opposed to jabbing it? not sure I understand.

Using jab as an edgeguard vs spacies at high percents as opposed to using it at low percents.

lol

 

[Strong Badam]

when m2k was at my house he would always counter firefox, walk off, then hit me with a fair regardless of what i did then edgehog.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just be aware that if they DI the Counter well, they can Illusion to grab the edge after being hit. So be prepared to D-tilt, Jab, etc.

But once you know about that and prepare for it (since the low recovery is awful, easiest thing to react to ever, etc.), unless they sweetspot through Counter or tech it (or get lucky with Marth's foot), there's really no reason to drop an edgeguard after countering a Firefox.

 

[makoforce]

Just be aware that if they DI the Counter well, they can Illusion to grab the edge after being hit. So be prepared to D-tilt, Jab, etc.

But once you know about that and prepare for it (since the low recovery is awful, easiest thing to react to ever, etc.), unless they sweetspot through Counter or tech it (or get lucky with Marth's foot), there's really no reason to drop an edgeguard after countering a Firefox.

is shield breaker edge guard any good now because i still do it. And you can charge it so it easier to time

 

[Winston]

when m2k was at my house he would always counter firefox, walk off, then hit me with a fair regardless of what i did then edgehog.

because you let him...

 

[DuckPimp]

m2k does the bare minimum required to beat people not in the top 5.

 

[Wenbobular]

I got past his edgeguarding a couple times vs his Marth on Yoshi's
Too bad he's still M2K <____<

 

[KirbyKaze]

is shield breaker edge guard any good now because i still do it. And you can charge it so it easier to time

You tell me.

 

[Orion*]

Is there an extremely specific percent based guide to Marths CG anywhere?
I know m2k has that **** all planned out, I'm curious if anyone else went through the effort of doing that but made it public XD

 

[Teczer0]

I don't think anyone made one.

I know very general things about it.

The most important part to know is when Uptilt becomes an option for the CG and the fsmash tipper percentages.

 

[Orion*]

I don't think anyone made one.

I know very general things about it.

The most important part to know is when Uptilt becomes an option for the CG and the fsmash tipper percentages.

My problem is I know generally from looking // just playing the game enough but I would rather have something numerical for reference. Practice like that and once it's internally memorized I will just forget it lol.

Where do I get the exact percents for utilt // fsmash then?
Also, what is the percents I have to pivot grab so I don't get shined? Sadly practicing vs. Computers doesnt tell me that lol


/sigh I have a feeling jason will not give me this list even if I begged him IRL loool

edit: Thanks

 

[.Chipmunk.]

My problem is I know generally from looking // just playing the game enough but I would rather have something numerical for reference. Practice like that and once it's internally memorized I will just forget it lol.

Where do I get the exact percents for utilt // fsmash then?
Also, what is the percents I have to pivot grab so I don't get shined? Sadly practicing vs. Computers doesnt tell me that lol


/sigh I have a feeling jason will not give me this list even if I begged him IRL loool

edit: Thanks

Basically, it's uptilt regrab once you get them into the 30s and then an uptilt/read DI follow up aftwards. You can tipper right after the second uptilt if think it will kill or you can follow up with...usually an uair to try to **** their jump. Once that is gone it should be easy to string together something ending in a tipper fsmash for the kill. Or at least, that's sort of what M2K does. I can get it sometimes, but I'm not consistent enough on it yet.

 

[FireFly]

CG 0-27/31 on Fox
Grab, uthrow, utilt 37-41 on Falco

 

[Beat!]

On Fox I try to do:
CG until ~28 (27-31 like Firefly said)
Uptilt
Regrab
Delayed uptilt
Regrab
Tipper f-smash

Sometimes I do some aerial shenanigans after the second uptilt.

Basically get the grab when Fox is at like, 50-75% (dunno exact %) and you should have a tipper.

And vs Falco you CG for a little longer, like Firefly said.

 

[Winston]

I don't think utilt is optimal if they DI the throw in the 30s range; you can just regrab again then. If they DI the throw away and then DI the utilt with the sword they can hit the ground before you can regrab. If they don't DI the throw though, utilt to hit them with the end of the swing has a pretty much vertical trajectory, so you get a regrab for sure.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Fox/falco can shine u out of uthrow at 19% thats when u must pivot grab. most spacies wont di the uthrow at 30% so you utilt them. they will hit the ground then. but u can still tech chase them. but its a gray area.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Fox/falco can shine u out of uthrow at 19% thats when u must pivot grab. most spacies wont di the uthrow at 30% so you utilt them. they will hit the ground then. but u can still tech chase them. but its a gray area.

It's not just shine they can do. It's simply a matter of not DIing the throw between 19 - 27? or so percent. It's important to read the lack of DI and pivot grab accordingly

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I don't think utilt is optimal if they DI the throw in the 30s range; you can just regrab again then. If they DI the throw away and then DI the utilt with the sword they can hit the ground before you can regrab. If they don't DI the throw though, utilt to hit them with the end of the swing has a pretty much vertical trajectory, so you get a regrab for sure.

34 is the "magic %" where I start utilting. I've never seen anyone DI utilt at that percent so that they don't get regrabbed. From 28-34 its really tempting to utilt because they are right in that range, but they can definitely make it so you dont regrab. From 16 to 34 I pivot grab like a boss.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Alright, this question is actually for Cactus.
Why did you stop maining Marth? Is it because you felt like you perfected him?
Do you think aspiring Marths like myself can make it big in todays metagame? If not, why?

 

[Wenbobular]

Why do you need Cactus to tell you if Marth is a viable character or not <_<
We have Marth/Mewtwo taking 3rd at Genesis, Doc at 5th place, etc etc etc ....