Captain Falcon's Match-Up Database! | (General Discussion); UPDATED: April 18th, 2010

[lordhelmet]

c.falcon has no bad match ups why does this thread exist?

Willz, quit trolling and contribute. How the hell did you get a blue name?

 

[BigLord]

He's a smash director, he organized at least one tournament... and is still active. That's it lol.

 

[Willz]

I've hosted 4 offline tourneys. Get *****.

+

I'm the best C.Falcon.

 

[teluoborg]

Oh hey guise I got some input, some SRS (and by SRS I mean serious) input about the D3 matchup.

So I fought a D3 today and I chain Fthrew him all the way through Smashville.
I thought it was just a frame trap and laught at my opponent for not reacting accordingly.
But then I did it again. And again, and again and again again. Nothing he tried (jump, spotdodge, roll, attack) could get him out of it.

So this is official guys : Falcon has a chaingrab on D3 at low % (I'll get accruate data).
All you have to do is grab, Fthrow, buffer a dash, dashgrab, yell "Who's the ***** now ?" and repeat.

 

[Darky-Sama]

If it's guaranteed, then that's great. I haven't attempted it at lower percents, since well... sounds like a paradox. Chaingrabbing a D3, lol. This is great.

 

[teluoborg]

More info about the chaingrab :
-it's not a real chaingrab, DDD can escape it if he buffers a spotdodge or a roll.
-It's not perfect but still, it reduces DDD's reaction to 3 punishable options. And it's guaranteed as long as he doesn't buffer.
-It works from 0 to 50% (when DDD enters a tumble animation after the Fthrow)
-Chaingrabbing through FD from ledge to ledge does ~40% depending on how much Fthrow is stall and if you pummeled.

Examples of thing you can do to "tech chase" DDD after a Fthrow :
-if he spot dodges : hyphen smash (timing is strict), dash attack
-if he rolls backward : keep running and grab him again,
-if he rolls forward : down taunt. There might be a way to punish a forward roll but I haven't looked into it yet.
Funny thing is that even if it's the safest choice for DDD, good players learnt to not roll behind their opponent, so it won't happen often.

Again for it to work you must buffer the dash out of the Fthrow.
To do it just tap quickly forward during the end of Fthrow (the good moment is just after you see the star) and let go the control stick.
This is important because if you don't let go you'll buffer a walk instead of a dash.
Then once the dash is initiated you regrab or "tech chase".

TL;DR even if Fthrow is not a true chaingrab it's a **** good pressure tool on DDD.

 

[BigLord]

Holy crap that's AWESOME! Great find man! I wish I could practice it but the only DeDeDe main that I know of at the moment is kinda far away.

I've already done a pseudo-chaingrab with fthrow on other characters, though. It must rock doing it to a DeDeDe.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Great find, teluoborg. This is going to be very beneficial to the match-up. I'm actually eager to swipe through the MUs, just so I can post that on the main page of the guide.

 

[Black_Heretic]

I was reading the SNake Falcon matchup because I was bored, and noticed you said both Falcon and Snake have jabs that come out on the first frame. This is not true, Snake's jab comes out on frame 3 and so does Falcon's. The only characters with one frame jabs are Squirtle and ZSS.

Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I was reading the SNake Falcon matchup because I was bored, and noticed you said both Falcon and Snake have jabs that come out on the first frame. This is not true, Snake's jab comes out on frame 3 and so does Falcon's. The only characters with one frame jabs are Squirtle and ZSS.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Yeah, it was mentioned awhile back. I just never got around to editing it. Slipped my mind (again).

 

[Black_Heretic]

I figured it was something like that, but it was worth mentioning

 

[†Slader7†]

bump

So which character are we talking about or is this thread dead? (due to lack of updates)

 

[Darky-Sama]

Dedede, the Wario discussion should be just about done.
Already started the write-up for it, so it should be posted soon.

 

[Roderick]

I think this match is all about correct zoning. If CF zones correctly, he has a much bigger chance of winning. Falcon gets punished in every zone though, so he needs to adapt and place himself to take as little punishment as possible.

 

[lordhelmet]

Sorry I havn't been contributing here, I've been really busy. I'll try to post some stuff later =/

 

[Darky-Sama]

-Jab.
-FH Nair.
-Fastfall Uair.
-Raptor Boost.

Probably the best options you have at avoid Dedede's ridiculous grab game.
Jab can usually hit him quicker than a jab will connect, FH Nair can be combo'd into something else while keeping you out of his grab range (ex. Ftilt, up+b), Fastfalling a Uair is good because it provides decent range and his best auto canceled aerial for shield pressuring (or knocking them back, like you want), and Raptor Boost is 'so-so'. I tend to abuse it in this match-up for the fact Dedede is most vulnerable when he's directly above you (like most characters when against Falcon). Raptor Boost is good for shield pressuring as well, because you can use a jab after it hits. Chances are they'll buffer a shield grab, but it's not your 'worst' choice of an attack in this match-up.

 

[Roderick]

I think Raptor Boost is too punishable. SH FF Uair is much better. And if you miss you can escape, because it has so little lag.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah never end something in front of DDD's shield, hig grab range is too ridiculously good. The only moves that I landed on DDD's shield without being punished (yet) are Bair and Ftilt.

Else jab is a good move. Jab jab then run/jump toavoid the grabbing attempt and punish.

And for DDD's moves beware of Utilt and Bair, for they are both utterly broken. Bair can be FF'd (and DDD FFs like an anvil) to screw your vertical spacing so be careful when you're below him.
Utilt has a V shaped hitbox which has wide and high reach above DDD's head but not-so-good reach at ground level. So be careful when you're at 100+ %.

Then the waddle toss is a great projectile if DDD wants to camp but there are 2 ways for you to exploit them :
-jab them a lot to refresh your moves
-when DDD is next to them every A move that he does will transform into rethrowing the waddle. Use it to screw with his ground game.

Now about zoning :
1-do not try to control the center of the stage. Fight between D3 and the closest ledge, so that his CG hurts less.
2-Get him offstage. Seriously D3 is such an obese pinguin his offstage game is litterally brought down by his falling speed, by his abysmal drift speed (the worst of the game) and by a predictable up B.

Get him offstage and edgehog, then Uair/Bair his recovery attempts until he's forced to use his upB (which you can't stop because it has SA frames on the way up), let him land on stage and punish the 3 years long landing lag. If you can, try to punish it with a knee so that you can repeat the whole edgeguard process on the other ledge.

Here's a stub. I hope I can get more infos this week end.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In theory I really don't see DDD winning more than 65/35 if you can just learn to be extremely patient and avoid jumping into the **** and powershielding his Waddle Dee/F-tilt camping. And if Falcon does ever get a lead, it's probably possible to camp him, since he just sucks at rushdown and approach in general.

Probably the worst part of this matchup is Falcon's bad recovery.

I don't remember if Falcon can fullhop aerials on DDD, but if he can, it's a good strategy to do since DDD's punish options against fullhops are very limited if you're not Ike or Snake basically.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Dedede can grab Falcon out of the Raptor Boost anyway. Before it even hits him, actually. Which is why I'm saying it's so-so. I still use it against Dedede for the sole reason that having him in the air space above you is much better than keeping him on the ground. If he shields your Raptor Boost, you can still use a jab out it with very little cool down time.

Falcon is limited on approaches without getting punished on the ground, though.

The best thing about this match-up is that finding an opening isn't all that difficult. Approaching him on the ground is stupid, obviously. His grab range can pull Falcon out of just about anything you throw at him before it comes close to hitting. Battering at him from the air is your best option, especially if you know how to space your back airs and up airs while staying close to him.

Air camping isn't that bad of a choice in this match-up either, actually. Wait to see how a D3 reacts to air camping close to him and if he tries to go into the air space, punish him for it (just watch out for Dedede's back air, it demolishes majority of our attacks with it's range). Other than that, Dedede's moves are fairly predictable and punishable. A missed attack can often be punished by a Knee of Justice or whatever you choose to hit him with while his attack is cooling down.


Approaching him with Falcon's jab and grab game isn't too bad of a choice either, judging that you know what you're doing and are purely confident that you won't get yourself grabbed in the process. If not, you can count that as another 30%+ to your stock from the chaingrab. I usually just stick to the air game 75% of the time. He's not hard to out maneuver, you just have to be patient and punish. Being too aggressive when Dedede isn't in the air will get you owned.

 

[teluoborg]

Hey look at this :

His grab box is grounded, which is why SH aerials are safe on block if you pass through it and land behind him. The problem is that you mustn't be predictable because of Utilt...

Oh and how about inviting the DDD boards to the discussion ?

 

[BigLord]

teluoborg, I know it's a new AT but... you guys forgot about the pseudo-chaingrab on DDD?

If someone can learn to do it on instinct, it will really surprise a DDD player.

 

[Player-3]

i tried it on my friend and the buffering is really weird...

 

[lordhelmet]

The "cg" on D3 isn't a very good idea to do more than twice on the same person.

Because D3 can grab us out of our "cg"

 

[†Slader7†]

Falcon's "CG" should be used as a surprise tactic

so I guess staying in the air is the best option for falcon?

 

[teluoborg]

No he can't grab Falcon out of the Fthrow trap.
At least not before 40-50%.
And then even at this percentage it's a good frame trap.

And then again, even if he gets the trick to avoid the early Ftrap it's still forcing him into a spotdodge or a roll.

 

[Roderick]

Now about zoning :
1-do not try to control the center of the stage. Fight between D3 and the closest ledge, so that his CG hurts less.
2-Get him offstage. Seriously D3 is such an obese pinguin his offstage game is litterally brought down by his falling speed, by his abysmal drift speed (the worst of the game) and by a predictable up B.

Being close to the ledge allows DDD to just spam some Waddles, while falcon has no chance of doing any damage. I think falcon needs to stay close to DDD but not to close. Avoid his grab range, but don't go too far so he can throw his waddles at you. I agree with getting him offstage. That's his worst place to be.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

No he can't grab Falcon out of the Fthrow trap.
At least not before 40-50%.
And then even at this percentage it's a good frame trap.

And then again, even if he gets the trick to avoid the early Fthrow trap it's still forcing him into a spotdodge or a roll.

You're certain DDD doesn't have any "out-of-fthrow " attack options?

 

[lordhelmet]

Teluoborg, LightSide was able to grab me out of it consistently.

 

[teluoborg]

Hmm I looked at DDD's frame data :
spot dodge active on frame 2
Roll active on frame 4
Grab active on frame 6

So there are 2 possibilities :
-The person I tested with didn't know how to buffer grabs
-D3 doesn't have a 6 frames window during the Ftrap

Needs more testing...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Heavyweights are NOT the characters you want to attempt to F-throw chaingrab, since their weight makes your throw lag more and give you less frame advantage. Try it on a lightweight. It probably works best on space animals not named Wolf. Against D3, you want to either U-throw or D-throw him if your throw will not put him offstage.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I really don't find it smart attempting to outmatch Dedede in the one thing he's feared most for. Even if the chain grab on him was legit, Dedede still has superior grab range, he's a fastfalling heavyweight that would be able to react much quicker after being thrown AND getting grabbed by him would probably result in you taking 30%+ damage. Not really something worth risking IMO.

 

[teluoborg]

@A2ZOMG : I thought weight only added lenght to the animation, do you have a thread/post with the concrete data plz ? I'm very interested.
Oh and it's DDD's volume (lol) that makes the Fthrow chain easier. I quickly tested it on other FFers and it seems way less effective (except for bowser ofc).
I'm going at a double tourny tomorrow, I'll try to get a D3 main and have some tests with him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@A2ZOMG : I thought weight only added lenght to the animation, do you have a thread/post with the concrete data plz ? I'm very interested.

Exactly, weight adds to the animation and thus, adds to the ending lag of your throw. Like any other move in the game, throws are attacks that have startup, hitboxes, knockback, and ending lag. Unlike regular attacks, weight causes a variable change to the frame advantage you get from them.

Lightweights are usually easier to true combo or to string moves off of throws due to this. Your best bet for a legit chaingrab is against Fox, who falls extremely fast but is extremely lightweight at the same time.

Heavyweights might be put into a technically worse position sometimes due to not being sent as far, but actually comboing them off of throws is harder.

 

[Darky-Sama]

The problem with some lightweights is their ability to buffer a neutral air to break your combos.

 

[lordhelmet]

This is what I put in for my MG Guide:

Don't get grabbed, space
Utilize tilts, jab>grab, and uair
Keep D3 in the air and out space him
Punish his recovery with a Knee or up-B
Watch out for sheild grabs and bair

 

[Jim Morrison]

I really don't find it smart attempting to outmatch Dedede in the one thing he's feared most for. Even if the chain grab on him was legit, Dedede still has superior grab range, he's a fastfalling heavyweight that would be able to react much quicker after being thrown AND getting grabbed by him would probably result in you taking 30%+ damage. Not really something worth risking IMO.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Then we must assess the risk. If the Falcon player is in a position were there's nothing left to lose, he might as well try.

 

[lordhelmet]

The psuedo chaingrab is good as a surprise, but only as a surprise. Don't try it every stock, and I wouldn't try it if I was also at a low percent.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You're MUCH better off D-throw or U-throwing DDD, which actually has the potential to get you a safe followup since his options for dealing with those positional setups are limited.

F-throw is only optimal if it gets DDD off the edge, but if you're not close to the edge it's not that good vs him.