Social C. Falcon Social

[gravy]

What about really low uairs?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Lag/Stun/Total
NAIR(1st): -7/+4/-3
NAIR(2nd): -7/+5/-2
BAIR: -9/+8/-1
WEAK BAIR: -9/+5/-4
UAIR: -7/+7/+0
KNEE: -9/+10/+1
WEAK KNEE: -9/+4/-5
STOMP: -12/+9/-3

"Lag" is the l-canceled landlag.
"Stun" is the shield stun (not including hitlag which iirc affects both characters equally).
"Total" is the sum of Lag and Stun but does not include the time between the end of the hitlag and you actually landing (AT LEAST 1 frame). Taking that into consideration, Falcon doesn't have frame advantage with any of his aerials and only has frame neutrality with strong knee on shield. Also keep in mind that these are all "unstaled" values--the shield stun decreases as the moves stale and deal less damage, but l-canceled landlag stays the same.

Strong Bad or someone should verify these numbers before anyone accepts them as factual information.

Shieldgrab takes usually around 7 frames and jab takes 3, so theoretically you have frame advantage or neutrality in the jab vs. shieldgrab scenario on every aerial except weak bair/weak knee/stomp if you can manage to land on the frame after hitlag ends. However, the jabs themselves have frame disadvantages on shield (pretty sure--someone check me on this), so it only really works if they try to drop their shield. Furthermore, characters like Fox (shine oos on frame 4), Falco (shine oos on frame 5), Samus (upB oos on frame 8 but invincible from frames 5-8), Pikachu (nair oos on frame 6), and prob several others that I'm too lazy to look up have fast enough moves to trade with or straight-up beat out the jab after most or all aerials on shield. Safest bet is to either land behind them or space the aerial so that they cannot shieldgrab you after. Note that they can shield-DI moves to sometimes shieldgrab you even if your spacing appears "correct" (Hax said Darkrain was doing that to shieldgrab nairs), and also that some players are smart enough to tilt their shield in order to mess up your l-cancels, in which case you are ****ed.

All this goes to show that, theoretically, shield pressure is just a guessing game where the risk vs. reward typically favors the shield pressurer. In practice, you're usually safer than the numbers indicate. Just experiment with different stuff on different people of different skill levels and see how it turns out, I'd say.

 

[gravy]

Yah I can agree with you ferrish, I don't want my style to stagnate anyways, so I'll just keep trying different things. On a different topic, does anyone know if there's an extensive thread on all of the platform mechanics?

 

[bertbusdriver]

Yah I can agree with you ferrish, I don't want my style to stagnate anyways, so I'll just keep trying different things. On a different topic, does anyone know if there's an extensive thread on all of the platform mechanics?

Like shield drops, etc?

 

[Wenbobular]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=322062
Decent thread

 

[Windrose]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=322062
Decent thread

I want to see pros apply this.

 

[oukd]

There's also this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMxgGtMLEfw which is kind of old

accompanying thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=106622

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I want to see pros apply this.

You know most of them already do right?

 

[Tee ay eye]

i think all mid level falcon players could get a lot better by learning how to effectively manipulate aerial control and not fast-falling

 

[Twinkles]

Could you give an example of what you're talking about?

 

[ChivalRuse]

i think all mid level falcon players could get a lot better by learning how to effectively manipulate aerial control and not fast-falling

Wow I just had an epiphany. Thanks!

 

[Tee ay eye]

Could you give an example of what you're talking about?

hrm... this is a lot harder to explain than i thought

well, i guess i'm trying to get at 2 things:

1. by not fast-falling, you're able to float outside of your opponent's effective range in an awkward way that can throw them off. you can also kinda see what i mean here when johnny floats above/outside of fox's ledge attack range and then punishes with a uair the instant he sees toph do something

2. by not fast-falling, you usually end up delaying your aerials too. this pretty much gives you a little bit more time to wait around and react before committing to something. i can't find any really good examples, but there's a decent one here. after johnny hits the bair and knocks toph down, he jumps at him. instead of going for a hard read with a dair or a knee, he does a uair. the setup kinda allowed johnny to punish the tech-in-place/non-tech on reaction. if toph teched away, johnny could've seen that, not done the uair, and followed up in some other way (whether directly or indirectly). it's not just with fast moves like uair either. with falcon, you can do this with moves like knee and dair, too. instead of always going for hard reads and committing with a knee/dair in one place ASAP, you jump to where your opponent was knocked down and slowly float down (well, as slowly as you can). if they, for example, don't tech, then not fastfalling has given you enough time to input your knee at the very last moment and still punish their non-tech. and if you're not able to punish them with that, you're still in a better situation (than the hard-read) because you have not yet committed to a laggy move like dair or knee, so you're a lot more able to follow up on whatever else they end up doing.

 

[Twinkles]

I think your explanation was quite good. Thanks TAI

 

[Wenbobular]

Non fastfalled knee/stomp is also the classic spotdodge punish

 

[ChivalRuse]

Who spotdodges in this metagame though?

 

[iRobinhoood]

Who spotdodges in this metagame though?

Samus does

 

[ChivalRuse]

Spot dodging is a tool, like any other mechanic (rolling, shielding, etc.). The problem is that spotdodging tends to be a bad habit, which an observant player will pick up on.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

What do y'all think about crouch-canceling vs. Marth? Useful? I'm just trying to work CCing into my game in general.

 

[iRobinhoood]

What do y'all think about crouch-canceling vs. Marth? Useful? I'm just trying to work CCing into my game in general.

CC'd fairs. I'm not sure about fsmash though

 

[Tee ay eye]

What do y'all think about crouch-canceling vs. Marth? Useful?

crouch canceling is useful against every character, and marth is no exception

 

[iRobinhoood]

crouch canceling is useful against every character, and marth is no exception

Sweeeeet

 

[oukd]

cc'ing peach is absolutely useful...even on dsmash if you want to get the 2-hit reverse trajectory

its just that people are too scared to cc anything of hers in fear that it'll lead to dsmash...but i think it could come in handy for non-dsmash-followupable things

 

[ShroudedOne]

Crouch cancelling Peach is trickier than doing it against other characters, but things like her jab (if she likes jabbing after FC aerials), her nair at low percents, her DASH ATTACK (this is really important, btw, since this move beats Falcon's nair when correctly used) can all be cc'd to great advantage.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Generally I'd say CC every move that you're capable of. If they have the option of leading into Dsmash, just shield instead and knee OoS.

 

[Tee ay eye]

CC is important against peach too

ive heard scrubs cry about not CCing against peach in fear of her dsmash, but its just cuz they're bad and can't anticipate it

 

[Wenbobular]

Yeah .... not getting ***** by Dsmash is just a matter of knowing when it's coming
Although randomly taking 30+ because you misplace an aerial is pretty lame (although I think that's generally more of a space animal thing)

 

[S l o X]

i think all mid level falcon players could get a lot better by learning how to effectively manipulate aerial control and not fast-falling

I'm working on this as I type this.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Yeah .... not getting ***** by Dsmash is just a matter of knowing when it's coming
Although randomly taking 30+ because you misplace an aerial is pretty lame (although I think that's generally more of a space animal thing)

id rather take 35% for misplacing an aerial than taking 35%, dying, losing the set, and being demoralized from melee to this day because a vegetable hit your feet while i was running away for dear life

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Noooo, Tai, you are too good to quit! T.T

 

[Tee ay eye]

dont worry, im not gonna quit lol

 

[Wenbobular]

Are you talking about stitchfaces
I thought the best stitchface defense was attacking mercilessly because no Peach is just gonna randomly chuck it to get out of pressure so you get to attack willy nilly because they're not CC Dsmashing anymore

 

[Tee ay eye]

i was scared

 

[Wenbobular]

Fear -> hit by stitch -> lose stock -> lose match -> lose set -> quit Smash

Never fear!!!
It's only a rotten veggie

 

[Tee ay eye]

it's not enough to make me quit smash. i think (and probably always will think) that melee was the greatest game ever made, but every time now that i try to get "into" the game, that stitchface always pops into my head and begins a chain reaction of "you have school, a job, friends, and other things to concern you outside of smash"

 

[Dr Peepee]

then change what happens when you think of a stitch. it's perfectly doable you just have to want to change it.

on topic of falcon: I demand more falcon sh bair DJs and ACs!

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Tai, you should conquer your fear of stitchfaces by dressing up as a stitchface for Halloween. As Batman put it, "It's time my enemies shared my fear." Or something like that ...

 

[Wenbobular]

AC Bair is mad fast and good at stuffing approaching aerials in a relatively safe manner, especially if you retreat while doing it ... gives up ground though so you have to keep that in mind
Middlehop Bair is kinda goofy and I can't do it without concentrating on hitting the timing, so I haven't found any good applications for it <_<

 

[RFrizzle]

Excuse my ignorance but what does AC stand for?

 

[oukd]

autocancel

your move animation finishes before you land so you don't have aerial landing lag

 

[It's me Q]

autocancel

your move animation finishes before you land so you don't have aerial landing lag

So when can this happen? Ive obviously experienced it alot, but not enough to not bother attempting to l-cancel because I know it's coming.