Breaking Pika's Cg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Uzima (Uzi)]

lol, the 60% handicap seriously isnt a bad idea..

 

[mountain_tiger]

Well, if this turns out to be true, fox will be a hell of a lot more viable than he currently is. He will only have to worry about sheik for super hard matchups, which isnt a huge concern since several people have to worry about sheik, and many other characters have 1 super bad matchup

Actually, he has more than just Sheik to worry about. There's also the Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, Mr. Game and Watch, and ZSS (to a lesser extent).

But yeah, I'd imagine most good Pikachus would buffer the grab. I feel sorry for you Fox mains. If it weren't for the matchups listed above and Pikachu, he'd be so much higher....

 

[Toronto Joe]

that 60% idea is ****...

 

[Area_6]

the 60% idea where do we go to ask such a question?
That would be fine with me
its already handicap as ****

 

[Fenrir VII]

Actually, he has more than just Sheik to worry about. There's also the Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, Mr. Game and Watch, and ZSS (to a lesser extent).

Fox has no trouble with MK or GW... ICs, sure, but that's not as bad a match as previously thought... he's pretty good against them, actually...ZSS has been discussed thoroughly, and yeah, it's not bad...


remove Pika and possibly Sheik, and Fox becomes a hugely viable character...


So wait... setting a handicap to 60 eliminates the CG, correct? so basically, you get a 20-30 % boost here? (seeing as how Pika would do around 80-90 with the cg)...

I wonder how tournament legal that would be...lol

 

[CO18]

If thats tournament legal that would be sweet lol

 

[§witch]

It isn't. Otherwise every character would set their percent to 45 to avoid falco's chain spike.

 

[Conviction]

It isn't. Otherwise every character would set their percent to 45 to avoid falco's chain spike.

Lol true ^

 

[RPK]

Best stage against Pika is Smashville. I swear to god. My friend is basically a god when it comes to grabs since he knows all of his grab stuff. All of his **** is perfectly buffered. Anyways, Smashville. Camp the moving platform. If its going left, and Pika gets on, stay on the right side. If its going right, and Pika gets on, stay on the left side. The moving platform with basically **** up the chain grab. Thats the only way I know of legitimately breaking Pika's CG.

 

[Zeton]

It isn't. Otherwise every character would set their percent to 45 to avoid falco's chain spike.

I think in certain situations, you should be able to select your handicap, even if it eliminates falco's meta game of chain grab to spike...especially if the matchup is LOL or is by far the worst match up in the game.

Let alone if you had a choice to select ur % it will open the metagame to all characters. For example

IT WOULD FORCE A PIKACHU TO ACTUALLY LEARN THE FOX MATCHUP....

Also, it could make some other characters more viable...

there are tons of other match ups out there like this probably. We'd probably see more of Wolf and such like him.

I mean...I'd like to see a Wolf take on a Falco...that be freaking sweet.

and honestly switch, if your Falco meta game is only consisting of that chain grab to spike, the Falco boards have a looong way to reaching the meta game level of the god tier Meta Knight. This goes for all the characters that consists on 1 meta game of "gayness" Pika's new discovered cgs, snakes camping, d3 cgs, etc. I could go on forever...

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i support this. less gay, and less hating myself for cging fox lol. falco can go to hell though

 

[DarkAura]

Best stage against Pika is Smashville. I swear to god. My friend is basically a god when it comes to grabs since he knows all of his grab stuff. All of his **** is perfectly buffered. Anyways, Smashville. Camp the moving platform. If its going left, and Pika gets on, stay on the right side. If its going right, and Pika gets on, stay on the left side. The moving platform with basically **** up the chain grab. Thats the only way I know of legitimately breaking Pika's CG.

i read this and then 30 minutes later i had a fox pika match on smashville... mind you this pikachu is fairly good and i won by quite the margin

 

[Red Arremer]

Actually, he has more than just Sheik to worry about. There's also the Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, Mr. Game and Watch, and ZSS (to a lesser extent).

I think I already told you that you shouldn't post if you haven't got your facts straight, didn't I? lol Game and Watch...

 

[mountain_tiger]

I think I already told you that you shouldn't post if you haven't got your facts straight, didn't I? lol Game and Watch...

TBF, he doesn't have as much trouble with G&W as with the others listed. And ZSS' is only bad if you get caught in that DSmash lock. That leaves the Ice Climbers and MK, and MK gives most characters a lot of trouble, so I shouldn't really have listed that one.

But yeah, if you got rid of Pikachu's chaingrab, Sheik's FTilt lock and he wasn't so easy to grab by the Ice Climbers, he'd definitely be considerably higher on the tier list.

 

[Fenrir VII]

TBF, he doesn't have as much trouble with G&W as with the others listed. And ZSS' is only bad if you get caught in that DSmash lock. That leaves the Ice Climbers and MK, and MK gives most characters a lot of trouble, so I shouldn't really have listed that one.

But yeah, if you got rid of Pikachu's chaingrab, Sheik's FTilt lock and he wasn't so easy to grab by the Ice Climbers, he'd definitely be considerably higher on the tier list.

Fox is only easy to grab because Fox players suck...

I said it.

 

[Zeton]

Fox is only easy to grab because Fox players suck...

I said it.

And this is why I'm up to figure some meta game for fox. I'm good in my eyes, but I know there is always room for improvement.

 

[Conviction]

I just abuse the back of thier shield since they can't grab behind themselves.

Makes sense doesn't it?

 

[Zeton]

I just abuse the back of thier shield since they can't grab behind themselves.

Makes sense doesn't it?

Yeah in my opinion the best place to attack is pika's back. and fox has a lot of methods at attacking the back part of characters...

 

[Fenrir VII]

MK is no worse than a 6-4 for MK, ICs aren't as bad as 7-3... neither is a terrible match.


btw, I just posted about the handicap rule on the discussion for the SBR ruleset... You guys should go discuss it. : )

 

[Affinity]

The Falco boards will hate you all lol

 

[crifer]

I feel like mk is like 65:35...
really it´s so hard... maybe I dont know the matchup, but I really get ***** against mk´s....

 

[Pikabunz]

I think Fox does extremely well vs MK. Just don't get gimped though.

 

[crifer]

I think Fox does extremely well vs MK. Just don't get gimped though.

And that´s the problem. Once above mk= shuttle loop and mk edgeguarding.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Dair, Shine stall, and airdodge all beat shuttle loop...it's really easy to see coming.

 

[2Sko]

it's 10x easier to break any cg on wifi, offline its almost impossible... ill try it though

 

[_X_]

Well, I did some testing on Pika's D-throw CG on Fox. This is what I came up with:


Frame 40 - The earliest Pikachu can buffer another grab

Frame 56 - When Fox gets grabbed by Pikachu's Buffered Grab

Frame 59 - The earliest Fox can Jab


Sorry Foxes :[

Thanks for the frame data.

Strong work.

Take that ENTIRE THREAD.

/thread?

 

[Jenkins]

Thanks for the frame data.

Strong work.

Take that ENTIRE THREAD.

/thread?

if they dont buffer it, then fox can jab before they regrab

 

[AvaricePanda]

They're going to buffer it though, given the fact that it doesn't work if they don't, and they have buffer CGs on other characters (Snake, MK, Falco).

And Fenrir, a lot of MKs try to bait an air-dodge so they can shuttle-loop by faking an U-air/shuttle loop/whatever. D-air starts on frame 5, as does Shuttle Loop I believe, but it'd really seem like Shuttle loop would beat D-air given their priorities.

MKs good at baiting and punishing air-dodges and any reaction, really. I'll agree that Fox has it easier than a lot of other characters to avoid a shuttle loop or gimp given his shine-stall/general fast-fall speed, you just have to be unpredictable and do it a different way nearly each time, otherwise lol punish.

I hate fighting MK as Fox. The problem isn't his off-stage gimping or anything; it's that there's very little you can do if he plays a solid rush-down game. It's an annoying matchup.

 

[Fenrir VII]

They're going to buffer it though, given the fact that it doesn't work if they don't, and they have buffer CGs on other characters (Snake, MK, Falco).

And Fenrir, a lot of MKs try to bait an air-dodge so they can shuttle-loop by faking an U-air/shuttle loop/whatever. D-air starts on frame 5, as does Shuttle Loop I believe, but it'd really seem like Shuttle loop would beat D-air given their priorities.

MKs good at baiting and punishing air-dodges and any reaction, really. I'll agree that Fox has it easier than a lot of other characters to avoid a shuttle loop or gimp given his shine-stall/general fast-fall speed, you just have to be unpredictable and do it a different way nearly each time, otherwise lol punish.

I hate fighting MK as Fox. The problem isn't his off-stage gimping or anything; it's that there's very little you can do if he plays a solid rush-down game. It's an annoying matchup.

Sure, they bait airdodges, but with shine stall, and the FF (as you said), they seem to have more trouble with Fox than normal.

Dair can beat up-B, unless upB is perfectly spaced, which depends on a lot of things, really... so it's a pretty good shut down sometimes.

Rush down really isn't a problem for Fox, given his good out of shield options...

 

[AvaricePanda]

Rush down really isn't a problem for Fox, given his good out of shield options...

wat.

OoS retreating N-air is like, the only OoS thing in this match-up that I can see as useful, and even then MK can just follow up with a tornado. He can hit your shield with almost anything and be safe. I'm not sure how fast OoS N-air comes out, but your U-smash connects at no earlier than frame 8. His D-smash and N-air both connect at frame 2.

He can connect with D-tilt or F-air on your shield and be safe, because in the time that it would take for you to drop your shield, dash, and U-smash/aerial, he'd be safe on the ground and be able to D-smash/tornado/shuttle loop, or use an extra jump and N-air. Once he's inside range, there's not much you can do to keep him out because of his priority and stupidly fast attacks. Retreat with OoS N-air, and MK can follow up with a tornado because of the horizontal range it covers. OoS upsmash is going to be beat by like everything except if the last hit of his F-tilt connects your shield (I think).

Also, B-air->U-tilt/Delux Sunshine Combo (lol, I think) don't work on his shield because of OoS shuttle loop/N-air. SH F-air doesn't work because of his short height, and if it connects he can just DI and shuttle loop out of it (although everyone can punish approaching F-airs when it connects, yay retreating F-airs??).

Lasers are a good option to get him to 100%, but there's nothing really stopping him from just rushing in and pressuring you to not laser.

MKs rushdown is really what helps him win in the Falco/Marth/Fox match-ups; they all have little options when MK gets inside.

Your lasers are a good option

 

[Exceladon City]

Fighting MK defensively is about the only smart thing you can do against him. I lost a MM because I got gutsy and went balls to the wall. Which got me gimped...hard.

 

[Conviction]

Gah the Delux Sunshine Combo works on MK, the HIEGHT of character does not matter. Unlike kirby MK shield come out farther than his than kirby's (lol kirby's shield is so small by the time you do the second JJC it hits him) which allows you to use the technique. You can't judge a new technique until you fully master it.

 

[AvaricePanda]

When I said the Deluxe Sunshine Combo doesn't work on MK (I think), I wasn't talking about the height, I was talking about OoS shuttle loop or OoS nair possibly letting him get out of it.

Does anybody know the frame data between the shine and N-air and the N-air and jab?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

There aren't many OoS options to stop the combo if done perfectly.

 

[a male platypus]

Yeah it won't work against the buffered CG and when I go to tournies they buffer lol. I'll stick to Snake for pikachu thanks

 

[TKD]

doesn't work on buffered Dthrow chaingrab.

They're supposed to buffer the entire chain. This thread is pointless.

And Fenrir, a lot of MKs try to bait an air-dodge so they can shuttle-loop by faking an U-air/shuttle loop/whatever. D-air starts on frame 5, as does Shuttle Loop I believe, but it'd really seem like Shuttle loop would beat D-air given their priorities.

MKs good at baiting and punishing air-dodges and any reaction, really. I'll agree that Fox has it easier than a lot of other characters to avoid a shuttle loop or gimp given his shine-stall/general fast-fall speed, you just have to be unpredictable and do it a different way nearly each time, otherwise lol punish.

I hate fighting MK as Fox. The problem isn't his off-stage gimping or anything; it's that there's very little you can do if he plays a solid rush-down game. It's an annoying matchup.

You're wrong and you don't know about Fox. Explaining the entire concept of Fox to you is too much for one post.

 

[RPK]

What about my little trick on Smashville? </3

 

[Lezz21]

whats a buffer chain grab... sorry i such a newb at terminology

 

[DarkAura]

you input the command before it can be done do its performed at the first possible frame