Brawl+ Stage Legality Discussion: Brawl+ 7.0 Gold Discussion (Go Discuss Everything!)

[MK26]

...

dreamland 64 is the one with whispy...

its exactly the same as battlefiels bar the blastzones

and just so i dont do stuff for nothing, how do these sound?:

wwr: 60% stage size, 60% side boundaries, 75% upper boundaries
ptad: no evil wall, main plat has grabbable ledges, no cars (i'd love to get damage/kb edits for both, tho)
japes: no klaptrap, water moved down, inner ledges of outside platforms are ungrabbale
skyworld: all platforms are clouds, but bottom cloud is not pass-through and has ledges on both sides, while outside plats both have a ledge on the outside
ps1: rough melee windmill analog

all these are within the realm of possiblilty, but the ptad one will take a while to locate the model data for the wall within the 60000 (!) vertices of the ptad model (and that doesnt include cars...)

btw, are there any other stages that are "too similar"? Pictochat doesnt count

 

[bobson]

Sorry for quoting a long image...
I personally think that the "Regular" one in that image might already be good enough as a counterpick, without the need to move anything to fill the middle gap. I think the middle gap makes it all the more unique for a counterpick. But either way, I prefer using the left side of NPC for NPC+ rather than the right side (since a stack of 4, or even 3, platforms is just not going to work out that well, IMO).

The little gap in the middle looks really abusable. Think always being on a platform above your opponent. It looks like that configuration would be a neat stage on its own, but anyone with a good, fast uair like Metaknight's would have a huge advantage.

Edit: What's the problem with PTAD's wall in the first place? It always comes at the same time in the same place.

 

[Veril]

Nothing can fix WWR. Its a crappy FD clone. Pictochat does count as being too similar to FD. Saying otherwise won't persuade anyone.

I'm hoping someone responds to my "perfect world" fixes idea, seeing as that's what would actually make them viable.

No klaptrap on Japes is a stupid idea. Every time someone suggests that I eat a puppy.

 

[bobson]

Pictochat does count as being too similar to FD.

I really hope you're referring to frozen Pictochat or I'm going to have to escort you from the premises.

 

[Revven]

Edit: What's the problem with PTAD's wall in the first place? It always comes at the same time in the same place.

It's just that for what it is, when you get hit by it, it shouldn't be such a HUGE thing to you. Like you shouldn't get semi-spiked like you do JUST for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hell, if you get grabbed and that wall is there, it's a free semi-spike. It's part of the silliness of the stage and it doesn't need to be so ridick like the cars are.

I was saying to remove it because of the above reasons and if you can't simply tone down the KB and other properties of it.

 

[FrozenHobo]

gonna address only certain ones on this list:

japes: no klaptrap, water moved down, inner ledges of outside platforms are ungrabbale

i thik making the water intangible (like in melee) could possibly work instead of doing all of that. keep in mind, n klaptrap makes circle camping safe and, subsequently, turns falco into a god.

lower water sounds like a fine idea, but making the outside ledges ungrabbable is ridiculous and wholly unneeded.

skyworld: all platforms are clouds, but bottom cloud is not pass-through and has ledges on both sides, while outside plats both have a ledge on the outside

skyworld+ is fine right now except for the auto snap which should be fixable by making the platform intangible.

ps1: rough melee windmill analog

keep in mind, fire and rock create walls that stop the flow of the match whenever they appear. if we could keep it just grass and water (with fixed windmill) then that could be fine.

 

[MK26]

youre forgetting that lowering the water significantly will prevent or seriously hinder circle camping (if worst comes to worst we can just double the speed of the stage)
and its the inside ledges, not the outside

and all plats gone means we dont have to edit the autosweetspot on hit
+ i can prolly edit the fire and rock models too, come to think of it

oh, and @veril, you ban fd and cp kirby. done.

 

[FrozenHobo]

ah, i read that wrong. my mistake. inside ledges could be fine. i'm not entirely sold on the idea of no klaptrap, but i am willing to see what you can do with it.


can you actually edit the main cloud so it can't be fallen through?

can you PM me a brief tutorial on how to make certain ledges grabbable? would really help on another stage edit i'm looking at.

 

[Veril]

"facepalm"

Japes without the klaptrap is a stupid idea. I posted exactly what needed to be done to Japes. EXACTLY. But by all means continue to completely ignore my suggested edits. What would I know, Jiggs mains never play on Japes. I didn't discover stage specific techs there or anything either...

Look, Japes ideally would have these changes:
-no inside ledges
-water replaced with moon gravity, no current.
-klaptrap always the jumping variety
-klaptrap dmg reduced to 10, kbg removed, weak meteor (cancelable early enough so the klaptrap isn't a death sentence)
-klaptrap appears 1/3 as often and moves more slowly. ie, appears every 30 seconds
-lower ceiling.

@MK26: don't be an idiot. CP character X to win is a weak a** argument that I'm not even going to bother responding to. Think of something better and try again.

I really hope you're referring to frozen Pictochat or I'm going to have to escort you from the premises.

Any variant of Pictochat other than full on balls-to-the-wall stage-hazards filled inevitably banned Pictochat effectively is FD for CP purposes. With more Kirby...

 

[ValTroX]

You know what stages are actually worth fixing? Stages that actually would be totally legit CPs even using a conservative approach.

-PSI: freezing it in the grass transformation
-Castle Siege: freezing it in the final "Hell" transformation.
-Japes: moon-gravity, no current, Klaptrap damage to 10 from 30, no kbg, comes every 30 seconds instead of every 10, is only the jumping variety as opposed to the floating one, moves more slowly, non-grabbable inner edges on the platforms.
-Orpheon: stage only flips every 2 minutes on the 30 second mark, non-grabbable right ledge is now grabbable, side platforms do not appear.


This is in a perfect world where all that is possible.

not bad

...

dreamland 64 is the one with whispy...

its exactly the same as battlefiels bar the blastzones

and just so i dont do stuff for nothing, how do these sound?:

wwr: 60% stage size, 60% side boundaries, 75% upper boundaries
ptad: no evil wall, main plat has grabbable ledges, no cars (i'd love to get damage/kb edits for both, tho)
japes: no klaptrap, water moved down, inner ledges of outside platforms are ungrabbale
skyworld: all platforms are clouds, but bottom cloud is not pass-through and has ledges on both sides, while outside plats both have a ledge on the outside
ps1: rough melee windmill analog

all these are within the realm of possiblilty, but the ptad one will take a while to locate the model data for the wall within the 60000 (!) vertices of the ptad model (and that doesnt include cars...)

btw, are there any other stages that are "too similar"? Pictochat doesnt count

Please, do the ones in bold, they just sound great, about wwr, it's not bad for doubles, though i do agree to make blast zones smaller, and I still think there MUST be something you guys can do with SP, cm'on guys!, it's one of the greatest looking stages and those moving platforms are sexy. On Japes idea, i gotta be honest, i like veril's more, but you guys should work on both and see which one turns out better

 

[Veril]

I'm extremely familiar with Japes and I generally perform very well on that stage. I know how to do all of the weird techniques here, and invented several myself (lightstepping on Japes ftw). I love Japes. My motivation is getting Japes to the point where it is tournament legal. I've spent a LOT of time thinking about this stage in particular. Literally the only people I wouldn't take here are falco mains cause Falco just wins on Japes atm.

The klaptrap, specifically the "evil shamu" jumping variant (as opposed to that lazy swimming b****), is needed to weaken the stalling techniques possible on this stage. Removing the effects of the stage size, water, etc will make it much more balanced. Making inner ledges non-grabbable and weakening the klaptrap (to the point where it serves as a deterrent but not able to KO) will remove the conventionally ban-worthy qualities.


In its current form, Japes isn't gonna be legal

If someone actually implements all those changes successfully... I will get them advantage on hit for their main's entire moveset. Think about it.

by "removing the effects of the stage size" do you mean make it smaller?

Lowering the ceiling... its ludicrously high atm.

 

[FrozenHobo]

by "removing the effects of the stage size" do you mean make it smaller?

 

[bobson]

full on balls-to-the-wall stage-hazards filled inevitably banned Pictochat

Normal Pictochat is not "inevitably banned." The majority of regions have it unbanned; only the exceptional whiners like the EC have it banned.

I agree that purposely ruining the stage by freezing it is pointless.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

The little gap in the middle looks really abusable. Think always being on a platform above your opponent. It looks like that configuration would be a neat stage on its own, but anyone with a good, fast uair like Metaknight's would have a huge advantage.

Then perhaps just remove that little bottom platform in the gap? Should be easier than filling in that space with something, as well as make it more unique.

 

[MK26]

****

i just erased the water

and klaptrap

its actually pretty sick

like

the water is still there

but it doesnt do anything

so yeah veril

teh difference between your ideas and mine

are that mine are possible

right now

while yours

are theoretical

and demand perfection

youre mixing up the words 'viable' and 'perfect'

a stage doesnt have to be perfect to work

and anyway, i dont think we can edit the properties of teh water (ie moongrav)

and i dont think we would want to, even if we could

see: the BBrawl pirate ship escapade

and feel free to not respond to this

im not expecting a response

but teh good news is that removing ptad's wall is like 20000x easier now

so yall can expect that in a few

EDIT: just throwin this out there

clearing miscdata[20] of ptad freezes teh stage at the first stop

and the floor still does damage

so lol

 

[FrozenHobo]

that was the most annoying thing i've ever had to read. honestly, you could have written it normally, gotten you point across and not made yourself look an idiot. just fyi.

 

[Alphatron]

If klaptrap can't be weakened, then leaving it in is still better than removing it. It's like the Spear Pillar pokemon in that it hurts camping badly...but its not as overpowered.

I agree with Veril in that removing the klaptrap is silly actually.

 

[VietGeek]

that was the most annoying thing i've ever had to read. honestly, you could have written it normally, gotten you point across and not made yourself look an idiot. just fyi.

its pretty obv that hes trying to mimic the mulberry tree

he still has much to learn

but no hate bro

just saying~

 

[Slashy]

New idea for Onett and Mario Circuit:

Camera extends to show the bubble boundaries Bubble damage still occurs if you try to camp near the death boundaries. Bubble boundaries are identified by a change in lighting. Bubble damage raised to 2%.

 

[RPGsFTW]

MK26, the Jungle Japes thing sounds interesting. But I'm most excited to hear you mention that PTAD+ is getting more possible.

Was the first part of Castle Siege debated on anymore recently as to why we should freeze it and keep it that way? I like the idea so far, and the stage. Popo gave me the code for it frozen, and I like it.

Oh, and freezing Stadium 1 at the grass stage sounds really cool. That has the best, imo, platform layout.

And about that Sky World+ with intangible ledges???

 

[iLink]

Just out of curiosity, was the Pirate Ship idea we had going on a while back just completely scrapped or could we just not do it?

 

[The Cape]

New idea for Onett and Mario Circuit:

Camera extends to show the bubble boundaries Bubble damage still occurs if you try to camp near the death boundaries. Bubble boundaries are identified by a change in lighting. Bubble damage raised to 2%.

We actually had this idea awhile back.

Basically make the KO points a good deal farther out without changing the camera. It might work, but it does not solve the issue of boundary camping itself being so ******** and a solid strat.

I love Mario Circuit and Onett V.V

 

[ValTroX]

Just out of curiosity, was the Pirate Ship idea we had going on a while back just completely scrapped or could we just not do it?

What was it if you don't mind me asking? I think pirate ship should be frozen and get it's water removed.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, it would be kinda like a frozen rainbow cruise xD.

 

[Slashy]

We actually had this idea awhile back.

Basically make the KO points a good deal farther out without changing the camera. It might work, but it does not solve the issue of boundary camping itself being so ******** and a solid strat.

I love Mario Circuit and Onett V.V

But now it is possible to tech chase and read DI in those areas, making it possible to easily combo further into those zones.

Mario Circuit and Onett have some small nuggets to help stop camping, if added.

Cars doing extra shield damage (maybe have a wind effect too?)

Damaged karts having hitboxes.

 

[iLink]

What was it if you don't mind me asking? I think pirate ship should be frozen and get it's water removed.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, it would be kinda like a frozen rainbow cruise xD.

That was the idea more or less, or just make the water function different instead of removing it completely.

 

[FrozenHobo]

the pirate ship idea proposed was to make the water intangible while weakening the hazards. it should be doable, but probably time consuming.

 

[MK26]

yes, i need mulberry tree practice

with that said, i have no idea what you're talking about, veril...i dont see a lazy swimming ***** animation for klaptrap anywhere, neither in the game's files nor in actual gameplay...he just jumps twice and disappears

unfortunately, i have absolutely no clue where hitbox data is contained in the stage files
this is starting to piss me off

i get ideas, i follow through, and everyone's like 'not good enough, we're content with waiting for Phantom Wings' or some ****

 

[Alphatron]

Neko gave the idea to make Onett x2 as to make the cars come more often and make boundary camping less effective.

There's still the rooftop edges...and its a walkoff.

MK, I wholly appreciate what you're doing. But removing hazards isn't always the best thing. Spear Pillar for example. The stage still sucks.

 

[ValTroX]

Neko gave the idea to make Onett x2 as to make the cars come more often and make boundary camping less effective.

There's still the rooftop edges...and its a walkoff.

MK, I wholly appreciate what you're doing. But removing hazards isn't always the best thing. Spear Pillar for example. The stage still sucks.

the stage still sucks ONLY because of the cave of invincibility.
EDIT: I got to admit, it sucks as it is now butI want the platform to be able to move, slower if it's possible and somehow remove that darn cave , even if it means taking out the top floor instead of bottom one, and moving the bottom one up, but i think that will mess up with the legendary pokemon thing, since they appear on the top floor.

 

[Veril]

food for thought from stage discussion outside of this thread

removed due to my not wanting to argue a million points until an official set is out. By all means continue to pretend you know what you're talking about.

 

[MK26]

Veril, i've already responded to the 'banning a stage is supposed to be banning a strategy' argument, and haven't gotten a response back
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9156171&postcount=435
(not to mention that huge-*** post of mine a bit before that)

The gist of it is that, in a balanced game, half of the characters will be better than the other half on any given stage. The better and worse halves differ from stage to stage, but because all the characters are roughly even, any character will be in the better half and the worse half in about equal proportions. These proportions change constitution as you add stages, to make the list more liberal, or remove them, to make the list more conservative, but they still stay the same relative to each other. Regardless of the size of the list, you'll always find strategies that work on more than one. Does that mean Smashville should be banned because you can juggle characters easily there as well as on FD? Does it mean that Halberd should be banned because you can shark there as well as on Delfino? Does it mean that Lylat should be banned because it looks somewhat like SSE Jungle at first glance? No, no, and hell no.

Also, if I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: no stage is truly neutral. 'Neutral' is a misnomer; a better term would be 'simple' or the more literal 'starter', because that's what PS2, Battlefield, Smashville, etc. are - simpler stages that people feel more comfortable with because there are few or no outside factors they need to worry about. Now, this lack of outside factors doesn't mean that the stage is balanced. Some characters (read: characters with projectiles) thrive on the flat, featureless type. These stages are simply a subset of all stages, none of which are balanced.

And btw, Glick, that list is not liberal. At all. It doesn't even qualify as remotely liberal if I don't see Luigi's Mansion on it.

 

[Veril]

MK26, your argument is driven by the idea that stage bans should be for gameplay reasons only. I disagree, stage's play a pivotal role in balancing the game. Your statements about balance are in the above post likewise based on fundamentally false premises.

You may say a thousand times that no stage is truly neutral, and you will be pointlessly splitting hairs a thousand times. The neutral stages are not neutral just because people feel more comfortable on them... people are comfortable on them because they are neutral. You aren't an expert, but you write intelligently enough that people might be duped into thinking you are.

Matchups are far and away the least influenced by neutral stages. "Neutral" in this context is a stage that could be used in a random selection rather than stage striking. A "starter" would be fine if stage striking were applied. The distinction IS important.

Your statement on projectiles is fairly unsupported by... anything. That's true of FD, which you should note I did not list as a neutral.

Your idea of liberal does not reflect the general positions of nearly every competitive player I've spoken with. Glick is more aware of this than you are, beyond a doubt.

 

[MK26]

You aren't an expert, but you write intelligently enough that people might be duped into thinking you are.

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take that as a compliment or an insult - all I know is that that's 100% true. But just because I'm inexperienced doesn't mean you have the right to brush off my points. If I can maintain an intelligent discussion, you should do no less than return the favour. (EDIT: see: 3 posts up)

What it boils down to is a difference of opinion. That's all. I think stages should be looked at individually for their competitive worth, each one legal until proven ban-worthy. You (and, according to you, many of the people around you) believe a stage to be a part of the whole - better to discard something questionable to maintain the integrity of the list, rather than keep it and carry the risk of spoiling it all.

 

[Veril]

Well, I had suggested a large CP/Banned list, and a ton of ways to make banned stages legal. The size of the "conservative" CP list could double with some of those fixes.

That was a compliment btw. A backhanded one certainly, but a compliment nonetheless.

Here's my "perfect world" stagelist, using the stage striking method for starter and a single ban per player.

Starter:
-BF
-FD
-Smashville
-PSII
-SSE Jungle (doubles) / Yoshi's (singles)

CP:
-Castle Siege 1st transformation
-Castle Siege 3rd transformation
-PSI grass transformation
-PSI water transformation with melee windmill
-Delfino Plaza
-brinstar (singles)
-Rainbow Cruise
-Skyworld
-warioware (singles)
-yoshi (doubles)
-SSE jungle (singles)

CP/Banned at TO discretion:
-fixed WWR (doubles only)
-Pictochat (doubles only)
-fixed Halberd
-Fixed Orpheon: make the non-grabbable right ledge grabbable, set "flips" to occur every 2 minutes at the 30 second point.
-Fixed Japes: Convert the water to just having moon gravity w/ no current, make the inner edges of the platforms non-grabbable, fix the boundaries, klaptrap is always the jumping variant, klaptrap damage reduced to 10 with no kbg hits as a weak meteor smash, klaptrap appears every 30 seconds instead of every 10 and moves more slowly. Also lower the absurd ceiling. Probably would end up CP/Banned at TO discretion.
-Fixed Aero Dive: no cars, no death wall, grabbable ledges
-Luigi's Mansion: if the bottom pillars could be destroyed before the top


The "gameplay related justifications for stage bans would be removed from these groups. individual TOs would have a ton of leeway with what stages were used, and every stage in CP/Banned is there for balance issues which deserve exploration, just not at large tourneys where a more conservative set could be adopted. You can see that a liberal TO would really be able to have a pretty large selection. I personally really like the idea of static versions of stage transformations. I'd love to be able to play on only the grass portion of PSI for example. And CS has 2 viable stages in it.


Also, I'm all for having more stages, and stage hacks in general, as long as these stages are structurally unique.

 

[FrozenHobo]

since neko was excited about the progress of this, i'll just put this here. feel free to say whatever (i know most of you think its stupid anyway):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDIk6TSz00Q

 

[MK26]

Sooo...I guess we're agreeing to disagree, then?

EDIT@FH: cool
i think i know why the right side loses its edge on steep slopes, and if my hunch is right, i can fix it. But that's for another day.

 

[Veril]

that's pretty cool.

Yes, we disagree on a fundamental point: Balance is the overall goal, not stage diversity.

The point I was trying to make was that its possible to have a stage-list with a lot of leeway for individual TOs especially if we can tweak a number of borderline stages. So smaller events could be more experimental and big events more safe. You can see the logic in that at least right? As evidence accrues over time we can adjust the list to reflect whether some stages are really completely fine and balanced or not.

 

[GHNeko]

do want

i also want MK 1-2 fixed.

MK26, i call upon thee.

more liberal stage list plz.

 

[MK26]

do want

i also want MK 1-2 fixed.

MK26, i call upon thee.

more liberal stage list plz.

please god no

itll take forever to locate the model data for that one part

dont make me torture myself, neko

EDIT: 111 vertices
a hundred and eleven
all contained in 2 objects
so i have no clue where to start, let alone finish
i best be gettin paid for this

 

[Veril]

more liberal stage list plz.

Here's my "perfect world" stagelist, using the stage striking method for starter and a single ban per player.

Starter:
-BF
-FD
-Smashville
-PSII
-SSE Jungle (doubles) / Yoshi's (singles)

CP:
-Castle Siege 1st transformation
-Castle Siege 3rd transformation
-PSI grass transformation
-PSI water transformation with melee windmill
-Delfino Plaza
-Rainbow Cruise
-Skyworld
-brinstar (singles)
-warioware (singles)
-SSE jungle (singles)
-yoshi (doubles)

CP/Banned at TO discretion:
-fixed WWR (doubles only): camera issue dealt with
-Pictochat (doubles only)
-fixed Halberd: hazards removed
-Fixed Orpheon: make the non-grabbable right ledge grabbable, set "flips" to occur every 2 minutes at the 30 second point.
-Fixed Japes: Convert the water to just having moon gravity w/ no current, make the inner edges of the platforms non-grabbable, fix the boundaries, klaptrap is always the jumping variant, klaptrap damage reduced to 10 with no kbg hits as a weak meteor smash, klaptrap appears every 30 seconds instead of every 10 and moves more slowly. Also lower the absurd ceiling. Probably would end up CP/Banned at TO discretion.
-Fixed Aero Dive: no cars, no death wall, grabbable ledges
-Luigi's Mansion: if the bottom pillars could be destroyed before the top

A liberal TO could run a tourney with 20 legal stages in singles/doubles. A conservative TO could stick to what is safest.