Brawl+ Stage Legality Discussion: Brawl+ 7.0 Gold Discussion (Go Discuss Everything!)

[FrozenHobo]

bah, details!

 

[RPGsFTW]

Exactly .

^This.

Now that I've had a chance to play on RF+, I see why it is a CP. It is quite big, but definitely has a cool layout. It also looks beautiful.

PTAD+ is one of my favorite CPs, but is often complained about from my friends. I, personally, think that it, along with maybe every other stage, should get their boundaries shrinked again, because they still look way too big.

And could someone, please, explain stage striking to me. I've only ever "banned" a stage, not striked. So when I see "Halberd/Delfino", I don't know if that's saying that you ban both, or one specifically for doubles/singles.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i just checked the download for 7.0.2 and i believe it has the wrong version of summit+ in it. the included version is much too tall and has the slippery plats. i can post the updated version, but this needs to be fixed in the updater/pac files asap.

edit:

this si the stage that was intended to be included:

Summit+ v2.0

Classification: Counterpick
Download
Changes:
~Smaller stage size
~Plats no longer slippery
~Closer top boundary/camera

 

[GP&B]

Does RF+ intentionally have very little horizontal air space off the ledges? It's something I wanted to change, but I wasn't sure if there were going to be any changes. Vertical air space is pretty much perfect IMO.

 

[GHNeko]

Ice presents general challenges for people. It's not so much a niche as it is a hinderance to tech skill. Summit+ has ice on the bottom and the platforms (unless the version I have is not updated as I have heard the platforms were not intended to have ice).

...the minimum amount of technical skill required to properly move around the stage is like .1 point higher than what you'd need to maneuver on a normal stage.

It's not hard to learn.

Spoiler

arbitrary numbs ftw

 

[JCaesar]

That doesn't really matter. It's just that it changes grounded gameplay pretty drastically. I could see charging fsmashes quickly becoming the dominant strategy there, since they slide automatically and don't require spacing, and so many fsmashes are safe on shield.

That said I still think it should be given a chance.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Isn't a stage making you change your playstyle a good thing?

You don't see too much smash charging on any other stages.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

how come yoshi's island brawl is not a neutral? i understand why lylat is not a neutral but yoshi's is fine

skyworld+ is perfect for a counter pick stage it has its little gimmick and its pretty fair.

halberd and DP should both be legal counter picks in both singles and doubles.

someone has to tell me what happened to luigi's mansion b/c the last time i played on it the house was still there and it was still a ceiling which made a cave of life so how was this fixed?

And wario ware is a great stage and its a fair neutral

 

[FrozenHobo]

someone has to tell me what happened to luigi's mansion b/c the last time i played on it the house was still there and it was still a ceiling which made a cave of life so how was this fixed?

the ceilings have been removed.

 

[GHNeko]

That doesn't really matter. It's just that it changes grounded gameplay pretty drastically. I could see charging fsmashes quickly becoming the dominant strategy there, since they slide automatically and don't require spacing, and so many fsmashes are safe on shield.

That said I still think it should be given a chance.

Grounded gameplay changes, but not by a huge amount, and it doesn't even affect the whole cast as such.

And sliding charged fsmashes would only become dominant when you're getting the hang of the stage and how your character works.

Sliding Charged Fsmashes still get ***** by spot dodges.

 

[lord karn]

If we use npc+, we really need to change the background and/or camera. When I played on that level it was really hard to see what was going on. Other than that, the level seemed pretty interesting.

I really like the new rumble falls level. We played with that as a neutral at HERB3 and it seemed to work out really well to me.

The ice is annoying, but I don't see it being overpowered at all. You just have to take sliding into account.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't think we should take out the background, it would make it look unprofessional

 

[MK26]

i honestly have had no problem with the background on npc+, iuuno what you guys are smokin, or if you test it out wihile drunk, or somethin...

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Yeah, I've always wondered how they get distracted by the background, and I've never come to understand why... (If anything would be distracting, it would be the background of Rumble Falls+, since it's so pretty... j/k [A friend of mine did pretty much spend the first minute marveling at the background instead of focusing on the match the first time he played on it, though... ])
But yeah...I certainly don't have the slightest problem with the background.

 

[Deleted member]

It's just the camera which makes the stage look funny. It's situated too high and zoomed too far out.

The background is fine... That's like saying Space Armada's background is too distracting due to ships and lasers and barrel rolls which has never been the case.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

One problem with the ice on Summit is that it makes shields completely useless for punishing. This makes it a whiplash inducing hard counter to characters that rely on good OoS options or characters that rely on shield pressure or stun to get their initial hits. (On top of already giving characters with high ground speed a hard time.)

Characters such as Ganon can stroll around the stage shielding everything because there's no way to properly punish him for it, assuming he knows how to use the ice.


It doesn't particularly over-centralize game play, nor does it have any random elements that would constitute a ban.
However, it does change game play pretty drastically and is a pretty mean counterpick for characters that benefit from it.

 

[Deleted member]

One problem with the ice on Summit is that it makes shields completely useless for punishing. This makes it a whiplash inducing hard counter to characters that rely on good OoS options or characters that rely on shield pressure or stun to get their initial hits. (On top of already giving characters with high ground speed a hard time.)

Characters such as Ganon can stroll around the stage shielding everything because there's no way to properly punish him for it, assuming he knows how to use the ice.


It doesn't particularly over-centralize game play, nor does it have any random elements that would constitute a ban.
However, it does change game play pretty drastically and is a pretty mean counterpick for characters that benefit from it.

Meh. Nothing will do any of the newly crafted stages any good whatsoever except playing on them and developing a metagame around them.

 

[Suic]

So assuming that a new SSS is in the works for the next major release, will SSE jungle be getting its own selection along with WWR. Also, could the third transformation from Castle Siege be considered for insertion as a CP in the new SSS as well?

 

[FrozenHobo]

So assuming that a new SSS is in the works for the next major release, will SSE jungle be getting its own selection along with WWR. Also, could the third transformation from Castle Siege be considered for insertion as a CP in the new SSS as well?

you're not really familiar with how this stuff works, are you?

 

[Suic]

you're not really familiar with how this stuff works, are you?

Obviously or I wouldn't be asking the question in the first place :/. I wasn't aware of what sse:j would be replacing if it didn't have its own place on the SSS, so I thought that would be worth knowing. It has already been said at one point or another that WWR would be getting its own place and I naturally assumed the same would be done for sse:j. If that is far off the actuality then excuse my ignorance of the subject.
If you are referring to the Castle Siege comment, then I can only assume you mean that it is beyond current hacking abilities to start things out on the third stage rather than the first as freezing it seems to be a matter of only a few lines of code.
Perhaps you mean my statement about insertion for CP consideration? I obviously don't assume that anything is actually done in game to define something as a N/CP/B stage; I was only meaning that it seems as if the stage would be a CP if it were taken as a separate stage from the rest of Castle Siege...perhaps the stage tilting and fireballs would warrant a B status?

 

[FrozenHobo]

no, i meant pretty much all of it. its a hell of a lot more complicated than you seem to believe it is.

 

[Suic]

Well I never actually stated that you meant only one of those things rather than multiple, but I suppose arguing semantics isn't generally worth the expense of either of our times. As a result of the lack of response with any number of informative answers, I can only infer that the following will hold true:
1. SSE:J will have its own space on the SSS along with WWR
2. a) It isn't possible to start the stage in the third formation, and thus that stage is out of the question
b)The stage would be most likely classified as a Banned if it were evaluated individually
Feel free to leave me in my pit of ignorance if you so choose

Edit: Ahh I had already posted before I saw the addition to your last post. I don't understand why it is you assume that I believe any of this hacking to be easy. If I thought it as such, would I not be trying my hand at it myself? My questions are purely me trying to become more informed on the subject. I realize that a massive amount of time and effort has already been put into every aspect of Brawl+ and that I couldn't even imagine having the dedication that most of you developers do. Please don't have any misconceptions about how much I appreciate everything
2nd Edit: Perhaps my posts sound arrogant? I have been told as such before, but am not really sure how I could change my writing style to be less so.

 

[FrozenHobo]

no, not arrogant. i've just heard these suggestions before and pretty much every time i have to explain that the process to do this stuff is much less straight forward/does not exist for the mot part. take SSE jungles for instance: it is a pac file running over temple. even if you made a second slot for temple, it would still be over ridden by SSE Jungle. similarly, if you made a pac for temple that overrode another stage, you would lose that stage as well. as of now, PW's code allows for the addition of stages based off of WWR. this means that we would need pacs built off of such.

as for CS, no. i do not recall a code allowing the stage to start at any stage, and pac files can only do so much (i.e. not what you want). we do have a file for the third form to go over WWR, but it is not animated, and even if it was, the stage is pretty much another FD/shorter deadlands.

i will state, however, that yeroc is working on our SSS right now, so he may, in fact, discover something of use for furthering some of these ideas. however, for the time being it is unrealistic to expect such requests to go through.

 

[Suic]

Ahh well then my assumption was due to misinformation I had already received on another thread. I had asked if the custom SSS would allow for each of the new spots to have 26 unique alternate stages loadable with Dantarion's code. The answer I got was that that indeed was the case; when, based on what you have just said, it obviously is not. The new slots then have to be already defined stages, even if that stage then gets overwritten by a stage loading over it. That is indeed good to know then. I appreciate the answer and, though I am somewhat sad that the third transformation can't be played on as is; I understand that there are limitations to the hacking that can be done. I'll be looking forward to that SSS whenever it is released

Edit: also as a quick aside, what were the reasons for using sse:j as opposed to the top left section of temple? Could the rest of the level not be adequately removed (again this may prove my ignorance of the level hacking process, but I apologize in advance if so) enough to isolate that section; or were there viability issues aside from that?

 

[MK26]

no, not arrogant. i've just heard these suggestions before and pretty much every time i have to explain that the process to do this stuff is much less straight forward/does not exist for the mot part. take SSE jungles for instance: it is a pac file running over temple. even if you made a second slot for temple, it would still be over ridden by SSE Jungle. similarly, if you made a pac for temple that overrode another stage, you would lose that stage as well. as of now, PW's code allows for the addition of stages based off of WWR. this means that we would need pacs built off of such.

Wrong, actually. You've got 9 extra stage slots, and though PW packaged his code with files for use with WWR-based stages, you can replace those to make the code work with other stages as well.

Ahh well then my assumption was due to misinformation I had already received on another thread. I had asked if the custom SSS would allow for each of the new spots to have 26 unique alternate stages loadable with Dantarion's code. The answer I got was that that indeed was the case; when, based on what you have just said, it obviously is not. The new slots then have to be already defined stages, even if that stage then gets overwritten by a stage loading over it. That is indeed good to know then. I appreciate the answer and, though I am somewhat sad that the third transformation can't be played on as is; I understand that there are limitations to the hacking that can be done. I'll be looking forward to that SSS whenever it is released

To answer whether or not the new slots allow 26 unique stages: yes and no. You can have 26 new stages on each of those slots, but you are limited in that each of those 26 stages must share the same .rel file (and therefore must be based off of the same stage). Furthermore, though we do have 9 new slots to work with, we don't have 9 empty icon slots to replace with custom pictures, so we're limited in that regard as well.

Edit: also as a quick aside, what were the reasons for using sse:j as opposed to the top left section of temple? Could the rest of the level not be adequately removed (again this may prove my ignorance of the level hacking process, but I apologize in advance if so) enough to isolate that section; or were there viability issues aside from that?

Presumably, in the future you'll have the option to play on both the Temple Ruins (my personal name for that Temple hack) and SSE Jungle at the same time.

 

[Mattnumbers]

SSE Jungle is an amazing teams stage imo

 

[Suic]

To answer whether or not the new slots allow 26 unique stages: yes and no. You can have 26 new stages on each of those slots, but you are limited in that each of those 26 stages must share the same .rel file (and therefore must be based off of the same stage). Furthermore, though we do have 9 new slots to work with, we don't have 9 empty icon slots to replace with custom pictures, so we're limited in that regard as well.

Great, that's pretty much what I was trying to get at with my comment; though the wording was a little heavy-handed.

Presumably, in the future you'll have the option to play on both the Temple Ruins (my personal name for that Temple hack) and SSE Jungle at the same time.

Ok then the Temple Ruins configuration has only not been done for time's sake then? I had for some reason just assumed the idea had been disregarded for tournament viability issues. With the use of Dantarion's code I suppose there isn't anything stopping someone from doing it right now (though it wouldn't be a separate SSS entry for the time being). I know the camera and death boundaries can be edited without too terribly much trouble through BrawlWall/Box, but is the outright removal of the rest of the stage a reasonable work load? or even possible? It seems like that, in the case of Temple Ruins, other parts of the level are so close that they would have to either be removed or moved into the background similar to the middle section in summit+

 

[Che_Lab]

we should hack brawl to make a giant dildo come **** our *** every time we play it

 

[JCaesar]

You don't need to hack Brawl for it to do that.

 

[iLink]

I honestly lol'd irl when I read this

 

[Aceplayer]

There's too many edit stage lists, which one is the current? I'm confused.

 

[Deleted member]

There's too many edit stage lists, which one is the current? I'm confused.

Go to the 1st post and look at the 1st stage legality list by Cape. Your tourneys should use that as a base for legal stages. I'd guess your CP's are disputable by your general state's community and TOs.


Battlefield (BF)
Final Destination (FD)
Smashville (SV)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (PS2)
Yoshi's Island: Brawl (YI:B)

Would be in your best interests as starters with customizable CPs.

Also, its near impossible to make a stage list thats consistent when new stages can be created and the list of viable stages just keeps getting bigger. The B+ BR will prob organize a legit list for 7.0.3 some time.