Brawl+ Stage Legality Discussion: Brawl+ 7.0 Gold Discussion (Go Discuss Everything!)

[FrozenHobo]

ok, modified version of what e have on the front page. these suggestions are based on the stages available to 7.0.2, so there would clearly be changes as future updates are made/distributed.

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
WarioWare (singles)/SSE Jungle (doubles)

Counterpick:
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza/Halberd
Frigate Orpheon
Brinstar
Pokemon Stadium
Castle Siege
SSE Jungle (singles)/WarioWare (doubles)
Luigi's Mansion+
PictoPlus
New Pork City+
Summit+
Rumble Falls+
Port Town Aero Dive+

Counterpick/Banned:
Skyworld
Jungle Japes
Distant Planet+ (assuming it was indeed included in 7.0.2)
Onett
Corneria

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Mario Bros.
75m (temp)
Bridge of Eldin (temp)
Temple
Spear Pillar (temp)
Big Blue (temp)
Flat Zone 2
Shadow Moses Island (temp)
Green Hill Zone (temp)
Hanenbow
Pirate Ship (temp)
Norfair (temp)
Green Greens
Yoshi's Island (Melee) (temp)

 

[RPGsFTW]

Neutral:
WarioWare (singles)

Counterpick:
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Rumble Falls+

My face when I saw WarioWare as a Neutral and not YI:B or RF+.

 

[FrozenHobo]

actually, that was decided by the wbr.

 

[MK26]

actually, that was decided by Supreme Leader Lord Veril.

tru fax

 

[Veril]

ok, modified version of what e have on the front page. these suggestions are based on the stages available to 7.0.2, so there would clearly be changes as future updates are made/distributed.

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
WarioWare (singles)/SSE Jungle (doubles)

Counterpick:
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza/Halberd
Frigate Orpheon
Brinstar
Pokemon Stadium
Castle Siege
SSE Jungle (singles)/WarioWare (doubles)
Luigi's Mansion+
PictoPlus
New Pork City+
Summit+
Rumble Falls+
Port Town Aero Dive+

Counterpick/Banned:
Skyworld
Jungle Japes
Distant Planet+ (assuming it was indeed included in 7.0.2)
Onett
Corneria

I do NOT endorse this stage list. I will modify this post with all the things wrong with that list... after dinner. brb

tru fax

WW being a neutral was decided by the old GSH group, which was the precursor to the current b+broom. Way to fail at knowing where a ruleset came from, and attempting to make it appear like I made a unanimous decision. I wasn't even in charge at that time. Don't use my name without knowing your facts.

 

[FrozenHobo]

cool, i was just getting this started. as for the neutrals list, i was just referring to your post listing the neutrals and how everyone agreed it was a good list (which it is).

 

[CountKaiser]

Wait, was the code for the waterfall included in 7.0.2?

Someone said it wasn't. @_@

 

[FrozenHobo]

it was not, which is why i don't feel that the pac should have been included...

 

[CountKaiser]

What was the verdict on Distant Planet+ anyway? Is it being used or not?

If it is, where's the permanent waterfall?

 

[FrozenHobo]

perma waterfall is a requirement for it, but i'm still working out some gameplay problems people have been mentioning. it needs a considerable amount of playtesting before it can even be considered for a public release.

 

[CountKaiser]

Oh, whoops.

Ah well, just make it banned for now.

 

[Veril]

My recommended stagelist

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
WarioWare (singles)/SSE Jungle (doubles)

The neutrals were carefully tweaked to work optimally with the stage strike method. In singles... I would still like to reduce the boundaries on SSE Jungle, as in their current form they are beyond excessive.

Counterpick:
Halberd (singles)/Delfino Plaza (doubles)
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Pictoplus
Rumble Falls+
Brinstar
Pokemon Stadium
Castle Siege (1st transformation)
Luigi's Mansion+
Port Town Aero Dive+
Rainbow Cruise

I am confident that all of these stages are suitable for competitive use in their current form. Warioware is not a suitable CP for doubles nor is SSEJ a suitable CP for singles.

Experimental CP/Banned:
New Pork City+:
Summit+: friction at the base affects every movement technique and makes fighting here very strange at times.
Skyworld+: hitlag exploits via the bottom platform keep this out of CP

Some of the stages that are in banned currently could be moved to counterpick or CP/ban with suitable adjustments. Most would need to be so radically altered as to become unrecognizable.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i can sort of agree on summit+, but i'd still like to hear your logic for its placement anyway.

otherwise, that seems like a good list.

 

[Veril]

Dash-canceling, pivoting, and nearly every movement technique function a lot differently due to the friction being different on Summits base. Like with Skyworld hitlag exploits, it is not certain whether this is a fatal flaw or an interesting and unique effect. Thus CP/Ban

Castle Siege has to be frozen btw. The second transformation is not competitive and neither is the transformation period.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Yeah, seriously, the x-axis on SSE:J needs to be shrunk a little. It's way too big, ATM.

 

[FrozenHobo]

alright, sounds good. (this is why i've been asking for you guys to play test stuff...)

frozen CS sounds good. the first form is pretty good (with fixed ledges, of course).

 

[GHNeko]

Hitlag abuse on Skyworld is most definitely not a fatal flaw. It's an amazing exploit to catch people off guard and a ghetto way of extending hitboxes by a few frames. It also punishes spot-dodges something fierce. The platforms are well place and characters are never stationary. No joke. Then Add the moving platform understage which actually is on a timer ala Yoshi's Story in Melee and Klap Trap and this stage becomes the very essence of "Knowing your Stage"

People who honestly complain about the hittable bottom platform seriously need to learn to abuse its huge list of traits.

And with the boundary changes it got, this is probably going to be my number 2 CP, right under WarioWare.

This is an amazing stage.

 

[JCaesar]

Halberd (singles)/Delfino Plaza (doubles)

Out of curiosity, where on earth did that come from? The stages aren't really much different in size. They both spend about half their time in a passable medium-size layout and half their time in a large, solid/varied layout. Nothing about either stage really suggests it should be singles or doubles only.

If anything, I'd say Brinstar is too small and hectic to be a doubles CP, and you could make an argument that LM+ is too big and campy for singles. But Halberd and Delfino? No, they're both average, run-of-the-mill CPs.

 

[FrozenHobo]

the problem with skyworld+ was the ability to autosnap the ledge, not the hitlag.

 

[FrozenHobo]

the problem with skyworld+ was the ability to autosnap the ledge, not the hitlag.

as for your complaint, JC, the problem is that the two have similar strategies (i.e. sharking) that are highly prevalent on both. the split for which is legal in singles/doubles is not so much based on the aspects of the stage, but that we don't want 2 stages that offer the same strategy. if i ban delphino against a pit/jiggs, he can just go halberd and shark just as well. kind of defeats the purpose...

edit:
uh... i pressed edit, not quote.... yeah... ****.

 

[JCaesar]

And you can't shark on Brinstar, right?

 

[FrozenHobo]

you can, but brinstar is static in that its pieces are always the same. delphino/halberd have transformations/changes in layout that make them different from brinstar/similar to each other.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

the problem with skyworld+ was the ability to autosnap the ledge, not the hitlag.

This has been fixed since 6.0...

 

[FrozenHobo]

oh, i've never really played there.

in that case, i don't really see a problem with the hitlag. its just another gimmick of the stage.

 

[GHNeko]

oh, i've never really played there.

in that case, i don't really see a problem with the hitlag. its just another gimmick of the stage.

Exactly .

 

[MK26]

WW being a neutral was decided by the old GSH group, which was the precursor to the current b+broom. Way to fail at knowing where a ruleset came from, and attempting to make it appear like I made a unanimous decision. I wasn't even in charge at that time. Don't use my name without knowing your facts.

whoa, whoa, sorry
i was under the impression that you engineered the neutrals' stage boundaries to go with your list (which i assumed was, y'know, yours)
not to mention i didnt see any discussion on it anywhere, which led me to believe that...there was no discussion on it

GOD i fail at humour

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think that more stages should get their death boundary's altered (if necessary), we should at least get all the counterpicks.

 

[JCaesar]

you can, but brinstar is static in that its pieces are always the same. delphino/halberd have transformations/changes in layout that make them different from brinstar/similar to each other.

They both spend about half they time in neutralish, sharking form (though Halberd has closer boundaries most of the time I believe, depending on Delfino's transformation), but their other halves are vastly, vastly different. Not to mention that both of Halberd's forms have a single large platform, while Delfino's platforms vary greatly between transformations (and transforms much more frequently). The stages don't really play all that similarly. Delfino is much closer to PTAD+ (though with smaller boundaries) than it is to Halberd.

 

[Bandit]

Stage List

There's no reason to split Halberd and Delfino.
There's no reason to touch SSE Jungle. It's a doubles stage and it has a short ceiling. Learn to kill vertically.
PTAD is a really dumb stage. Randomly falling to my death is always how I want to play...
Skyworld plays fine.
Anything with Ice should be banned.

TO's are just going to ignore you and do what they want anyway.

 

[GHNeko]

Anything with Ice should be banned.

what is this i should even

there isnt even a good reason for ban a stage with ic

 

[Mattnumbers]

what is this i should even

there isnt even a good reason for ban a stage with ic

I should sig this...........

Anyways, Summit+ having ice on the bottom isn't a problem unless we discover some overpowered tactic or something. Its benefits to certain characters due to tricks using the ice makes it great as a CP imo.

Also I agree that DP and Halberd shouldn't be separated, you can't shark in the non-transition stages, and there are other great stages for characters like Jiggs (ie RC) anyways.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ganondorf can d-throw people through the clouds on Skyworld. It might catch a new player off guard or something but it is hardly banning material for the stage.

Personally, I'd rather have Skyworld be a CP and remove Port Town. The stage was ***** of it's original essence with no cars and a lot of the transitions are massive. Plus, there is still some odd bugs when you hit the track where you get dragged around a turn or up a hill and either take massive damage or just straight up die for no real reason. Plus I think phasing through that wall looks really odd. The stage was a fine casual ****-fest, much like Spear Pillar before that got frozen and isn't worth playing on drunk or sober. Port Town+ is passable, but I think Skyworld+ is a better CP stage. Of course if we are just gonna add one more stage then both can stay.

I have little testing on Summit. I can see the merit of the ice adding interesting elements but it might be too radical.

NPC+ feels really awkward. I guess it might be ok but I really still hate it.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I like NPC+ because I finally get a viable MOTHER stage. And I think it's actually decent anyways.

 

[Alphatron]

PTAD is a really dumb stage. Randomly falling to my death is always how I want to play...

You can fall through the track? Is it similar to the glitch that occurs on Pokemon Stadium and Delfino?

Ganondorf can d-throw people through the clouds on Skyworld. It might catch a new player off guard or something but it is hardly banning material for the stage.

That's actually bad for Ganondorf since he isn't going to have any follow ups with dthrow on the top platforms. I agree with you on Spear Pillar being horrible right now in its frozen state, but that stage isn't left for dead just yet.

I like NPC+ because I finally get a viable MOTHER stage. And I think it's actually decent anyways.

You and me both...but the camera issues among other things hold it back. I like it way better than a random bunch of platforms that they decided to call a city.

 

[goodoldganon]

That's actually bad for Ganondorf since he isn't going to have any follow ups with dthrow on the top platforms. I agree with you on Spear Pillar being horrible right now in its frozen state, but that stage isn't left for dead just yet.

The reason I mention it is that he has the whole right platform to d-throw people on. There is no platform underneath. The computer just dies as do a few characters with terrible vertical recoveries. Even then, it is a simple pass through the platform into a wiz-truck or d-air that will usually kill people. Granted I have only play maybe 2-3 serious 1v1s with Ganon on that stage so I haven't done major testing. Someone else is more then welcome to.

Spear Pillar should be unfrozen till the stage is 'fixed' cause right now it is a waste of a slot.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i was pretty sure yeroc and i agreed it should be un frozen, but i think i saw its line in the level freezer.

either way, i'm sorry you feel that way about PTAD+. hopefully tourney results will help us determine where it should go in the future, but we can't really get that data unless its actually used. thus the following predicaments:

Summit+, Skyworld+, and NPC+ are, indeed, experimental and not entirely agreed on for their legality. but we can't exactly just ignore them because then we never get any input from actual players on how the stage's mechanics impact gameplay. for now, i think they should be put on as CPs, and then when we get some actual information on them we can determine where they fit on the list.

 

[Bandit]

Ice presents general challenges for people. It's not so much a niche as it is a hinderance to tech skill. Summit+ has ice on the bottom and the platforms (unless the version I have is not updated as I have heard the platforms were not intended to have ice).

PTAD+ was summed up by GOG. The hitbox from the track appears so fast and you either die immediately or bounce a few times or set yourself up to die. Also, the random parts with missing track are just really dumb to play on. The wall is hard to deal with visually too but at least it doesn't hit you.

Skyworld+ doesn't have to do with Ganon's dthrow which only makes this a great stage for him. The hitlag is a bit of a problem, but I put that more into a niche category. If it didn't have the hit lag, it would be a smaller stage with bigger boundaries and hard ledges to grab.

All my comments are coming from competitive smashfests with nothing but competitive players but are my opinions alone.

 

[CountKaiser]

I like PTAD+, it's just that the boundaries are a bit large. If there was a way to reduce KB of cars, that'd be awesome.

Summit+ isn't supposed to have ice on the platforms. While it does seem odd, I say try it out before banning it from existence.

People like Skyworld+, but I never really liked the stage for whatever reason. Not sure why, I guess the layout just bugs me.

Camera on NPC+ is too zoomed out, and the slants make it feel slippery.

While I don't enjoy having DP and Halberd separated to singles and doubles, I understand the sharking bit. Though that is all that the levels have in common. Halberd eventually goes to a a large stage with a long platform, while DP+ can go into several other things, some of which have walls and are walkoffs.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Ice presents general challenges for people. It's not so much a niche as it is a hinderance to tech skill. Summit+ has ice on the bottom and the platforms (unless the version I have is not updated as I have heard the platforms were not intended to have ice).

yeah... you need to play on the stage before you just make assumptions. the plats aren't icy in the most recent version. plus, with a slippery base, characters like ike with powerful attacks, but bad range/mobility suddenly can dominate the stage (dash -> crouch -> fsmash and you'll see what i mean).

the ice is only a hinderance if you don't know how the mechanics work, which isn't really a viable excuse. no johns.


PTAD+ is essentially mute city in brawl, but with ledges.

 

[CountKaiser]

PTAD+ is essentially mute city in brawl, but with ledges.

And a disturbing lack of cars. >.>