Brawl+ Stage Legality Discussion: Brawl+ 7.0 Gold Discussion (Go Discuss Everything!)

[Revven]

Walkoffs were banned primarily in Melee due to waveshining.

And... that wasn't the only reason though... which you admit when you say "primarily" meaning, the most important reason but, not the only one.

Walkoffs have always been bad, even before waveshining. Case in point: Smash 64, Mushroom Kingdom, left and right sides. Best strat ever: camp the blastzone and Bthrow. Banned in Smash 64 competitively.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Everybody else understands, you've drawn far too much attention and time to your incompetence. And we have more tools than they do. That's like saying "You can't give Falcon a reverse knee!" ten months ago. Because we couldn't.

*yawn* More boring words. Like I said, if you can do it better, show me. ¦3

Edit: The Port Town thing looks pretty awesome by the way. I'll have to try it. Good work on keeping the cars out completely rather than just weakening them. :3

 

[The Cape]

Cars is what makes it a counterpick.

Remove the stupid wall and put back the cars and make them weaker and its a great CP.

 

[VietGeek]

Alright, seems like I've involved myself into yet again too many things...

but New Pork City+, good news and bad:

- I can get spawn points to work, albeit somewhat awkward but it will be further polished later. Respawn points more or less work out too.

- If you reverse the stage, Ultimate Chimera will never spawn.

- I got the left boundary to an ideal spot, although the fact that half of the stage is over there shows how ghetto this solution is.

Now the bad news:

- The lower region of the stage's model data needs to just be eliminated period. Too bad I don't know. =/ But yeah, if you just try moving the death boundary up, it suffers BBrawl Spear Pillar Syndrome.

- The uppermost platform needs to go. Lower boundaries does not work as you can only die off the top if:

1. You are knocked into the top
2. You land on something passed the death boundary

- The boat is broken. Die.

- The camera is a little wonky.

TL;DR: The things circled in red need to be eliminated, everything else will fall into place afterward.

Depending on how easy it is to remove stage models, more or less Spear Pillar and NPC Plus can be attempted further.

Pictures are pretty cool I'll admit.

 

[MK26]

Depending on how easy it is to remove stage models, more or less Spear Pillar and NPC Plus, as well as Skyworld++ and a PTAD+ that's up to Cape's standards, can be attempted further.

the rest of your post is cool too

 

[VietGeek]

those two stages just need hurtboxes and hitboxes adjusted (by that I mean disabled sans cars), not really pure stripping

obv

 

[Shadic]

*yawn* More boring words. Like I said, if you can do it better, show me. ¦3

If words aren't enough for you, get the hell off the internet. Stop posting. Your words are worthless.

As for PTAD+, is it even possible to remove the wall yet?

And if anybody has the know-how to work with me on Spear Pillar Not Suck edition, I could work on that.

 

[Team Giza]

Why is the boat broken?

My final point:
A crappy level-

Capable of being a Neutral/CP -

I think it would be better if we removed the top ground instead of the bottom.

Actually I think it would be best to break off the sides of the top ground. Then make the middle piece one that works like a platform (remains breakable). Lower the other two moving platforms down.

I don't like the idea of freezing the stage or putting it in reverse. I would like the pokemon to appear and break the middle platform now and but not do much else. Also I would like the laser to be weakened but still remain on the stage.

 

[Shadic]

Again, anything similar to that would leave a loop in the middle of the level. Instantly, you've got extremely stalled matches.

 

[FrozenHobo]

liked neko's idea for the stage. why does everybody keep referring to the flat layout with platforms? you people complain about FD clones and then you jump on the idea of another... or another PS2.

what exactly makes this:

so much more unique than this:

 

[Shadic]

As I've said like, four times now. You have a loop there. You're going to see tournament matches stalled. It would never be tournament legal. Plus you still have that cave to tech in.

And the platform layout is unique. And they move.

 

[VietGeek]

Why is the boat broken?

Well, I typed that rather rashly, but until we can destroy the rest of the stage that will be left out anyway, it in its current moving form allows for a giant bridge to aid recoveries.

Of course it's a two way street, as it can also be used as edgeguarding. However, bordercamping is its most abused element.

If we freeze the stage, the boat will be at the furthest right, and essentially be another platform. However with all the pseudo-wavedashing and platform abuse there (especially with yummy ledge-cancels now), I don't think it's really necessary to have another odd element that could potentially be abused (the one I can think of now is characters with momentum-intense recoveries using their side-B or whatever into the boat as a ramp to fly onto the platforms, or say Falco is being pressured on the platform chains and he side-Bs to the boat for safety).

Also freezing a stage seems extremely unpolished imo. PSII and WW were at least reversed so their little animations could still go on. NPC has a lot of little things going on, it'll look just plain weird. Polish is key. <3

The boat aside, the stage seems to be built rather oddly. I noticed that opponents were dying a lot sooner from just pure knockouts.

Then I realized that the stage isn't huge.

It's that the platforms and characters are small.

This explains why knockback on this stage seems to be "stronger," you're being sent the same distance as if you were on say FD, but it looks like you flew farther from a character/stage to boundary ratio on NPC.

This means that NPC+ is definitely going to be Captain Falcon's other lovable stage. It also helps characters with killing bthrows as well (Ness <_<).

 

[FrozenHobo]

@ shadic:

the platform layout is the same as PS2, just farther apart. thats not even an argument.

i can see your point about the rock on the right, but just doing what BBrawl did (even with fixed bottom boundary issues) is just another copy of previous stages we've had. why would you want to have 100 replicas of the same layout over and over again?

 

[Alphatron]

It's funny how circle camping on SP is mentioned when everyone ignores the fact the hazards that keep this from happening have been disabled.

If anything, those Palkia/Dialga lasers should be strengthened in shield damage tremendously, and only nerfed in knockback. I agree with Giza's idea on having the two sides on the top broken.

Or we can give up on SP and leave Dialga and Palkia in uber tier instead of OU.

 

[Deleted member]

I think we can add a counterpick to the list.

Awesome. Keep up the great work

Depending on how easy it is to remove stage models, more or less Spear Pillar and NPC Plus can be attempted further.

Sweet, but the stages need to offer something which no other stages in the roster can.
With all these stage hacks there's so many choices to pick, but unfortunately only X number can be used in tourneys with stage striking, etc.

 

[Swordplay]

shadic. I like you idea more. I agree about the cave and circle camp especially circle camp) I think the other SP idea is stupid. HOWEVER. Shadic, your SP looks like its just going to be similar to PS2 with a bad lower boundary.

I am uncertain if that stage can truly be saved.

 

[Shadic]

shadic. I like you idea more. I agree about the cave and circle camp especially circle camp) I think the other SP idea is stupid. HOWEVER. Shadic, your SP looks like its just going to be similar to PS2 with a bad lower boundary.

That's why you remove the collision and the platform itself for the bottom part, and maybe move the boundary up a tad. There'd be no bad lower boundary.

As far it being like Pokemon Stadium 2, I disagree. I mean, I understand how it's similar, but it's far from the same. That's like saying that Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield are the same thing.

 

[Team Giza]

Again, anything similar to that would leave a loop in the middle of the level. Instantly, you've got extremely stalled matches.

Perhaps I didn't get the point across in my post enough. I said keep the center part of the top floor there but make it act like a platform. In other words, make it so you can move through it.

I thought I made that clear but meh.

Well, I typed that rather rashly, but until we can destroy the rest of the stage that will be left out anyway, it in its current moving form allows for a giant bridge to aid recoveries.

The boat makes the stage unique. I think it would be much better to try and move the boat to the center of the stage while removing the platforms that get in the way of its movement. The moving boat would make the stage stay unique but not aid recoveries or get in the way of much. Does the boat still work correctly in reverse?

 

[VietGeek]

Yeah it still does, but the plan was to ditch the entire left side of the stage and just try salvaging the right side, leaving the boat to be a problem.

The boat itself is really cool but it doesn't seem to mesh in well with the already chaotic platform placement which was the original reason why it be beneficial to attempt to salvage.

*shrugs* It seems it would take a lot more work to get the boat to work well than to get the right side to work well. Both aspects of the change are unique and chaotic in spirit of the stage; it's just that it might be one over the other.

I'm open to suggestions, etc. Although I'm still fairly limited in how to make either present ideas happen.

 

[Shadic]

Any chance the boat could be moved? If so, you could get a pretty good stage on the left-hand side. I'd have to photoshop up the details, though.

 

[Deleted member]

As far it being like Pokemon Stadium 2, I disagree. I mean, I understand how it's similar, but it's far from the same. That's like saying that Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield are the same thing.

Agreed that they're not clones and operate on different dynamics, but I think that there's an issue on the amount of stages being made viable to play on. Everybody and their mother wants w/e their favorite stage, franchise, music, scenery, etc to be playable when a certain amount of stages can only be used in competitive play. Myself included =/

The boat makes the stage unique. I think it would be much better to try and move the boat to the center of the stage while removing the platforms that get in the way of its movement. The moving boat would make the stage stay unique but not aid recoveries or get in the way of much. Does the boat still work correctly in reverse?

The boat would be interesting to play on a viable stage version of NPC+. There's nothing else like the dynamic except for that hinged swinging platform on Rainbow Cruise.

Edit: If youre going for the right side of the stage with the sloped stone platform with 2 edges being the base of the level, you could keep the boat approximately where it is. Because when it swings to the left, it extends over the left of the stone base and provides a platform to recover on as well as making juggling and edge guarding more interesting and different. Then add a small platform on the right side of the stone base.

 

[FrozenHobo]

That's why you remove the collision and the platform itself for the bottom part, and maybe move the boundary up a tad. There'd be no bad lower boundary.

As far it being like Pokemon Stadium 2, I disagree. I mean, I understand how it's similar, but it's far from the same. That's like saying that Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield are the same thing.

the point being you're still just making the same layout on multiple stages which defeats the purpose of having multiple stages in the first place. we want different layout/strategies, not repeat layouts.

 

[Team Giza]

Yeah it still does, but the plan was to ditch the entire left side of the stage and just try salvaging the right side, leaving the boat to be a problem.

I meant get rid of everything on the left of the stage. Keep the stuff on the right that wasn't circled, then move the boat over to be centered on that part of the stage. Delete all platforms that that boat would collide with. It would still leave the stage being unique but wouldn't cause any functional problems. Perhaps you did address this. If you did then I am sorry it went over my head.

 

[Shadic]

the point being you're still just making the same layout on multiple stages which defeats the purpose of having multiple stages in the first place. we want different layout/strategies, not repeat layouts.

Are you saying we should only have one of the following?
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville

 

[FrozenHobo]

Are you saying we should only have one of the following?
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville

except, you know, the fact that all of those has different platform layouts? you know, just a minor point that makes you sound like a ******... nothing big.

 

[Sails]

except, you know, the fact that all of those has different platform layouts? you know, just a minor point that makes you sound like a ******... nothing big.

No seriously? I need some answers...

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, and the platforms in Spear Pillar MOVE. Meaning, you know, there's only a very short time in which they'll be the same as Pokemon Stadium 2 at all.

And the fact that it's a different size. And has better ledges.

Just a minor point, you shouldn't make yourself out to be an asstastic prick, just saying.

The main feature of FD, Smashville, and PS2 is that they're all flat, boring stages. Sure, FD has the moving platform. But it's not a big factor on the stage except when off stage, and PS2's platforms aren't the big feature either.

Again, do you honestly think Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield were the same in Melee?

 

[FrozenHobo]

Yeah, and the platforms in Spear Pillar MOVE. Meaning, you know, there's only a very short time in which they'll be the same as Pokemon Stadium 2 at all.

it still has the two platform layout and is still essentially a "flat, boring stage" just like the rest of them.

i'll go ahead and ignore the fact that the stage is frozen to remove the pokes in the first place which completely negates the moving aspect.

And the fact that it's a different size. And has better ledges.

by that logic we should go with GoG's idea of switching out FD for SSE stadium. same layout, better ledges, right?

The main feature of FD, Smashville, and PS2 is that they're all flat, boring stages. Sure, SV has the moving platform. But it's not a big factor on the stage except when off stage, and PS2's platforms aren't the big feature either.

uh, yes they are. SV isn't anything like FD and if you think that it is you probably shouldn't even be in here arguing. that single moving platform changes how that stage is played considerably from FD. same goes for PS2. those platforms are indeed a huge feature or that stage. seriously, do you just see a flat stage and instantly dismiss any other aspect of it besides the ledges? you must be god awful at CPing if you take that mindset.

Again, do you honestly think Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield were the same in Melee?

no, they aren't the same. both play differently because of the vast differences between them: size, ledges, wind, and, oh yeah, size.

FoD is HUGE. its a campers paradise with convex sides. BF, alternatively, is a small, impersonal stage where you'll be in each others faces for most of the match most characterized by its god awful ledges that kill falco.

now, lets apply this to SP and PS2:
SP is a medium to large sized stage that still has enough open room to encourage aggressive approaches and actually be awarded for it. The platforms (frozen or moving) are somewhat larger than PS2s, though this can barely be considered a major difference as 1) the size of the platforms is not considerable enough to be game-changing, and 2) the movement (if kept) isn't as big a difference as, say, the moving platform of SV which moves horizontally and can aid in recoveries. The vertical movement of the platforms only aides in running away/ avoiding the opponent which promotes camping (and nobody wants that, right?).

PS2 is a medium sized stage characterized by two raised platforms, out of the range of most utilts, and some usmashes. Additionally, this stage's ledges are fairly annoying, but have a larger sweet spot than PS1 making them considerably more reliable than its predecessor.

looking at these two stages side by side we see SP has a larger size and convex sides which eliminate accidental deaths by hitting the ceiling. Furthermore, we see SP has larger platforms that move up and down, moving players out of the range of tilts/smashes as well as most single jumped aerials when at its full height. This behavior can be seen as a way to promote camping and/or running away. Compared to PS2's platforms which are stationary and provide no real safety when camped (actually, you generally get ***** when you stay on them). Finally, we come to ledges, where SP's design makes recovery easier and PS2s require some practice to land correctly.

by looking at these two stages side by side we see SP suffers from the same problems as FoD (campy, large, easy to recover) while PS2 shares some of the problems of BF, albeit to a much lesser extent (wonky ledges and close quarters combat).

both are interesting stages, but if given the ability to change one, why would we strive for similar layouts with so many possibilities?

 

[Veril]

FD, SV, and PSII are fundamentally different. Frozenhobo is so right it hurts.

Take FD, Pictochat, and WWR, which all have the same crucial element of being platformless, even, and flat. The platforms DO make a huge difference. For CP purposes those stages are nearly equivalent, this is not my opinion alone btw, its the general educated concensus of every good player I've spoken to.

This whole discussion misses the point of the stage list, which is to provide the most fair and balanced given the gestalt of character matchups. So the goal is to make sure a persons stage ban isn't pointless (say if you have both FD, Pictochat and WWR, and your opponent plays Falco... what's the point of having the stage ban?). The goal is balance, not inclusiveness. Wrap your minds around that. The list doesn't force you to stop playing a stage, it just means the stage isn't ideal for a tournament setting... which is what these rules are for. ;p

I mean, Japes and Orpheon are my favorite stages. They shouldn't be banned based on gameplay issues, but for balance purposes they aren't ideal. Am I getting through to anyone?

 

[Shadic]

i'll go ahead and ignore the fact that the stage is frozen to remove the pokes in the first place which completely negates the moving aspect.

So we can find a way to undo that. Maybe reverse it?

by that logic we should go with GoG's idea of switching out FD for SSE stadium. same layout, better ledges, right?

I already proposed replacing the FD platform with a better one, actually.

uh, yes they are. SV isn't anything like FD and if you think that it is you probably shouldn't even be in here arguing. that single moving platform changes how that stage is played considerably from FD. same goes for PS2. those platforms are indeed a huge feature or that stage. seriously, do you just see a flat stage and instantly dismiss any other aspect of it besides the ledges? you must be god awful at CPing if you take that mindset.

I don't think you were properly interpreting what I was meaning to say. You were saying that Spear Pillar would be the same because of the somewhat similar features. I'm saying that the amount of differences between Spear Pillar and Pokemon Stadium 2+ is the same as that from PS2+ to FD, SV, etc. Like what you said here:

no, they aren't the same. both play differently because of the vast differences between them: size, ledges, wind, and, oh yeah, size.

both are interesting stages, but if given the ability to change one, why would we strive for similar layouts with so many possibilities?

Because the other possibilities have flaws as well. Giza had a pretty decent idea, but it involves basically changing the entire level, so..

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Reversing Spear Pillar won't fix the platforms, FYI. It'll just make the platform continue to move upwards or downwards at the beginning, going through the solid stage when going down, until it's completely off screen.

 

[Shadic]

Really? That's.. Weird. Oh well.

Edit: Also, I had a different idea for NPC, but it takes a bit more editing:

(Ignore my crappy Photoshop work)

Also, if moving the ship is possible, it could go between the two center platforms. You'd have a pretty unique stage, and it'd still capture the NPC charm, I believe.

 

[ValTroX]

Well, if the platforms on SP are screwed beyond repair, the there's nothing to do for the stage, but removing the lower floor is still a most

 

[Team Giza]

Well, if the platforms on SP are screwed beyond repair, the there's nothing to do for the stage, but removing the lower floor is still a most

Removing the top floor is way easier.

 

[VietGeek]

We actually have codes to get rid of the top floor.

Unfortunately it conflicts with the freezing part though. You'll essentially have collision-less platforms.

oh hey maybe we can use that select code for the Cresselia version have make krazy combo videos on it instead

obv this new way of thought will not lead to increase stage viability in tournaments

but increased combo video stage viability obv

 

[shanus]

HypeM!? I approve.

 

[Veril]

You know what stages are actually worth fixing? Stages that actually would be totally legit CPs even using a conservative approach.

-PSI: freezing it in the grass transformation
-Castle Siege: freezing it in the final "Hell" transformation.
-Japes: moon-gravity, no current, Klaptrap damage to 10 from 30, no kbg, comes every 30 seconds instead of every 10, is only the jumping variety as opposed to the floating one, moves more slowly, non-grabbable inner edges on the platforms.
-Orpheon: stage only flips every 2 minutes on the 30 second mark, non-grabbable right ledge is now grabbable, side platforms do not appear.


This is in a perfect world where all that is possible.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I had a different idea for NPC, but it takes a bit more editing:

Sorry for quoting a long image...
I personally think that the "Regular" one in that image might already be good enough as a counterpick, without the need to move anything to fill the middle gap. I think the middle gap makes it all the more unique for a counterpick. But either way, I prefer using the left side of NPC for NPC+ rather than the right side (since a stack of 4, or even 3, platforms is just not going to work out that well, IMO).

 

[KOkingpin]

no, they aren't the same. both play differently because of the vast differences between them: size, ledges, wind, and, oh yeah, size.

FoD is HUGE. its a campers paradise with convex sides. BF, alternatively, is a small, impersonal stage where you'll be in each others faces for most of the match most characterized by its god awful ledges that kill falco.

just quoting this to tell you that you are talk about a completely different stage then FoD. Fountain of Dreams is the Three platform stage where the two side platforms move up and down and there is no wind. You were thinking about Dreamland 64. FoD is actually smaller than Battlefield.

 

[FrozenHobo]

just quoting this to tell you that you are talk about a completely different stage then FoD. Fountain of Dreams is the Three platform stage where the two side platforms move up and down and there is no wind. You were thinking about Dreamland 64. FoD is actually smaller than Battlefield.

oh, woops, you're right...

well, the differences between those two are even greater (3 stationary platforms with medium boundaries to 2 stationary, 2 moving and close side boundaries and iirc high top boundaries). if anything, those 2 stages are even less similar that DL64 and BF.

that being said, you can't do a comparison between these two and then apply it to PS2 and SP. the platform layout is completely different for the majority of the match whereas PS2 and SP always have the same number of platforms.

as far as the main stage size is concerned, FoD is only slightly shorter that BF lengthwise with the biggest difference being that you cannot go under FoD. other than this distinction, the actual length of the stage is irrelevant. SP has a noticeably longer main platform than PS2 making that comparison null.