Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[Scufo]

Awesome.

I support anything that counteracts the stupid design decisions in Brawl that just make the game way too forgiving...

 

[Magus420]

Has it actually been tested and the results posted somewhere that it's really the launch angle itself that increases and not just the apparent angle you follow in the flight path? As in it's measured to be significantly lower than an equal launch powered 45 angle (or 40, 50, etc) when the KB is weaker (above tumble though!), but higher angled on an equivalent powerful KB. The flight path you take always appears "higher" than it does when the KB is weaker, even on normal angles. I do know that the 169 angle keeps you grounded if it's not strong enough to cause tumble though.

 

[CountKaiser]

Stage boundaries are happening.
It's likely that a portion of moves will have the Sakurai angle removed, and be given an angle that actually suits its purpose.
Blind came up with a list of moves that use the Sakurai angle in the BR, and it is frighteningly large.
WAY too many moves have that stupid angle/auto DI attached to it.

I have a question.

Is the sakurai angle useful for anything? It's abundance must indicate some usefulness for it.

 

[Gardevior]

Just because a game designer puts something in a game that shows up often doesn't mean it's useful. eg, tripping. It's probably just an effort to make the game easier to play.

 

[sffadsad]

I have a question.

Is the sakurai angle useful for anything? It's abundance must indicate some usefulness for it.

Like Magus said, the angle keeps opponents grounded if it's not strong enough to send them into tumble. If I remember correctly it helps gives some attacks that little trip effect.

 

[CountKaiser]

That's nice.

Is that all it's good for?

What is the purpose of this angle, anyway?

 

[JCaesar]

To piss off countless smashers.

Btw, there is a B+ tourney in MD today and there will be a livestream. I'll keep you guys informed.

 

[Alphatron]

Maybe I'll actually be able to watch the livestream today and get to see Bandit win some matches...

Can we get the list of moves that use the Sakurai angle or no? I know Kirby and King Dedede's bairs use it. Link's fair second hit uses it(I mean, just holy ****). Bowser bair does not use it, but fair apparently does. I think Jigg's fair uses it too.

 

[JCaesar]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jcaesar-brawl

It'll be on all day. We haven't started the tourney yet though.

 

[Veril]

Can we get the list of moves that use the Sakurai angle or no? I know Kirby and King Dedede's bairs use it. Link's fair second hit uses it(I mean, just holy ****). Bowser bair does not use it, but fair apparently does. I think Jigg's fair uses it too.

When Blind finishes the list I'll post all the moves that are getting altered.

Bowser's weak bair DOES have the sakurai angle btw.

 

[VietGeek]

That's nice.

Is that all it's good for?

What is the purpose of this angle, anyway?

forced get-ups, the auto DI usually helps you combo better, in conjunction with trip rate means you can dictate at what %'s the move can actually trip by tinkering knockback growth accordingly, etc.

it's actually good on moves that have follow-ups. however it's just terrible to have on general kill moves...at least from what has been observed so far.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I think you guys should take it one step at a time. Remove the sakurai angles before you guys make the stages smaller. You might end up with people dying a little too early.

 

[Veril]

There are two big reasons that reverting some moves with the Sakurai angle is nowhere near as effective as altering the boundaries.

1. There simply aren't enough strictly KO moves with the angle for that to be effective across the cast. Sure there are characters like Bowser who have a really prominent KO move with the Sakurai angle that can't ever combo, but there are also characters like Kirby and Jiggs who have substantial overlap with KO/combo moves that have this angle (Kirby's bair and Jiggs fair). Some characters have very few KO moves that have this angle period. It just isn't an even distribution.

2. Taking away the Sakurai angle will emphasize KOing off the side (with average DI), except in the case of more advanced survival DI (like quarter circle DI or double stick DI). The ceilings are being brought lower to a greater degree than the sides are being moved inward. So the effect of removing the Sakurai angle and reducing the ceilings aren't complementary when people are getting optimal trajectories for survival. And if they aren't the only effect is that they no longer get the added benefit of auto-DI.

Hmm, how can I explain this better? Basically if you are DIing a formerly "sakurai angle" move perfectly the stage boundary changes are going to have a more pronounced effect than than if you aren't DIing, in which case the removal of auto-DI would have more of an effect.

tl;dr I'm doing both, but stage boundary change is a much more important fix than the removal of the sakurai angle. Taking away the Sakurai angle is meant to emphasize skill with DI moreso than substantially reduce KO%. The boundary adjustments also are geared towards lowering the ceilings than making side KOs earlier (though they will be somewhat earlier on several stages)

 

[Magus420]

Again, may I ask what is really known about this concept of "Auto-DI"? Can you quantify it? I'd be interested in knowing more about it. I would assume the details are pretty well understood if you guys are willing to possibly make dozens of changes to moves, and would need that info to know what "normal" angle would make the best replacement. What would normal angle 'X' be to match the flight path of the sakurai angle when both are at 70 BKB? This would best be done by directly comparing a normal angle's flight path to the sakurai angle's flight path at a given KB, and not attempting to measure the sakurai angle on its own. At 100, 150, 200 BKB? Is the capacity to alter the angle with DI any different?

 

[Gardevior]

A little off-topic, but how did you get those animation swaps in your signature, Magus?

 

[GHNeko]

Action Replay / Gameshark

 

[zaf]

Is it possible to get some character pacs who are said to be done? I would really like to see how the new MK pac is. I want to also see how the downB was changed. Will a beta be released soon or will you guys be waiting for the stages to be changed first?

Also, i looked but i cant find any list or anything, but i was wondering what all the new changes to the game mechanics are ? ( I.E: stage killboxes, ledge invincibility decreasing over time)

 

[CT Chia]

when is gold happening?

 

[Scufo]

There are two big reasons that reverting some moves with the Sakurai angle is nowhere near as effective as altering the boundaries.

1. There simply aren't enough strictly KO moves with the angle for that to be effective across the cast. Sure there are characters like Bowser who have a really prominent KO move with the Sakurai angle that can't ever combo, but there are also characters like Kirby and Jiggs who have substantial overlap with KO/combo moves that have this angle (Kirby's bair and Jiggs fair). Some characters have very few KO moves that have this angle period. It just isn't an even distribution.

2. Taking away the Sakurai angle will emphasize KOing off the side (with average DI), except in the case of more advanced survival DI (like quarter circle DI or double stick DI). The ceilings are being brought lower to a greater degree than the sides are being moved inward. So the effect of removing the Sakurai angle and reducing the ceilings aren't complementary when people are getting optimal trajectories for survival. And if they aren't the only effect is that they no longer get the added benefit of auto-DI.

Hmm, how can I explain this better? Basically if you are DIing a formerly "sakurai angle" move perfectly the stage boundary changes are going to have a more pronounced effect than than if you aren't DIing, in which case the removal of auto-DI would have more of an effect.

tl;dr I'm doing both, but stage boundary change is a much more important fix than the removal of the sakurai angle. Taking away the Sakurai angle is meant to emphasize skill with DI moreso than substantially reduce KO%. The boundary adjustments also are geared towards lowering the ceilings than making side KOs earlier (though they will be somewhat earlier on several stages)

I'm a bit confused as to why comboability is being considered for whether or not to remove Sakurai angles. Doesn't the angle only really "kick in" at higher percents, when comboing is pretty much out of the question anyway?

 

[CountKaiser]

Scufo has a point. Theoretically, you could replace all sakurai angle moves with an actual default angle and not have the moves lose their purpose, but still work better.

Since the sakurai angle raises to a maximum of roughly 40 degrees, something along the lines of 35 to 30 degrees may be a place to start.


EDIT: Though after playing with the angle for a while, I think I also understand what Magus is getting at.

Characters, by default, don't rise to the actual angle that a move sends at until they are at a high enough percentage, regardless of the angle. I think this is due to simple character weight and fallspeed and such.

As for the fact that the Sakurai angle can be DI'd nearly straight upwards, that just seems to be an effect of the 40 degree angle it gradually rises to. Lowering this angle reduces the effectiveness of the DI upwards.

Which means that the sakurai angle is simply a 40 degree angle that has a chance to trip people, from what I can tell.

This means that the 40 degree angle is a terrible angle altogether for kill moves, it seems. For combo moves, though, I'm not sure. lowering the angle to 35 seems to preserve combos as well as reduce the effects of DI.

Either way, I think Sakurai just trolled us all. Hard.

 

[wowoduend]

Makes me curious how Sakurai was able to make up 3 different engines or physics for Smash. He put so many stupid things in Brawl but not the other Smash games.

If SSB4 was made, i wonder what kind of engine will it be or feel like. More stupid mechanics is a chance.

 

[Dai Tian]

If you're designing for casuals/making a game not intended in any way to be competetive, you can get away with lots of things. It's not like they'll ever care.

 

[BEES]

the joke is that 64 is better for casuals than brawl

almost nobody likes tripping

 

[Dai Tian]

Hilariously, Brawl+ is also better for casuals than vBrawl.

 

[Alphatron]

Casuals got tired of brawl about two years ago if they didn't get into the hacking scene. It got to the point where people who vigilantly defended the game on gamefaqs would leave the board and then come back a few months later saying, "lol, people still play this crap?" I found the whole thing pretty funny myself...

 

[Scufo]

Scufo has a point. Theoretically, you could replace all sakurai angle moves with an actual default angle and not have the moves lose their purpose, but still work better.

Since the sakurai angle raises to a maximum of roughly 40 degrees, something along the lines of 35 to 30 degrees may be a place to start.


EDIT: Though after playing with the angle for a while, I think I also understand what Magus is getting at.

Characters, by default, don't rise to the actual angle that a move sends at until they are at a high enough percentage, regardless of the angle. I think this is due to simple character weight and fallspeed and such.

As for the fact that the Sakurai angle can be DI'd nearly straight upwards, that just seems to be an effect of the 40 degree angle it gradually rises to. Lowering this angle reduces the effectiveness of the DI upwards.

Which means that the sakurai angle is simply a 40 degree angle that has a chance to trip people, from what I can tell.

This means that the 40 degree angle is a terrible angle altogether for kill moves, it seems. For combo moves, though, I'm not sure. lowering the angle to 35 seems to preserve combos as well as reduce the effects of DI.

Either way, I think Sakurai just trolled us all. Hard.

So basically you're saying that, in Brawl, all moves gradually rise in angle as damage increases.

That's dumb. Did the other Smashes do that?

 

[Veril]

So basically you're saying that, in Brawl, all moves gradually rise in angle as damage increases.

That's dumb. Did the other Smashes do that?

moves WITH the sakurai angle. I posted a lot of these in my data thread (shffling the numbers)

 

[CountKaiser]

Which data thread it this? The only one I know of is the throw data thread.

And are you certain it's just the sakurai angle that does this? I've messed with other angles, mainly lower angles, and they never lifted a person off the ground until they could induce tumble, and when they did, the angle was largely horizontal until suitable KB was in effect to lift up the angle.

 

[Wind Owl]

Which data thread it this? The only one I know of is the throw data thread.

The one entitled, "Shffling the numbers," as Veril already stated.

 

[Magus420]

So basically you're saying that, in Brawl, all moves gradually rise in angle as damage increases.

That's dumb. Did the other Smashes do that?

The apparent angle of your flight path rises as knockback increases on all moves with an angle that's not straight up or straight down (where the pull of gravity is parallel to the launch angle). That's not new to Brawl, and it's simply the visual result of downward movement from fall speed after a given amount of time being constant on all knockbacks while movement from knockback is not. The angle appears to 'rise' on stronger knockbacks because there is less time for gravity to pull you downward over equal distances sent of weaker knockback. It's more apparent with faster fallers and as the launch angle is closest to horizontal (pull of gravity is perpendicular to launch angle).

If you use Jigglypuff's d-smash (0°/pure horizontal launch angle) on a fast faller with low damage at the very edge of the stage they appear to go diagonally down and away from the stage. If you instead use it on them at very high damage the path they follow is much closer to straight away than downward which is closer to the actual launch angle of the attack. As knockback increases, the movement from fall speed becomes less and less significant to the overall movement making the visual 'angle' of the knockback higher and more like the actual launch angle.

That said, some believe the sakurai angle actually alters the launch angle itself as knockback increases, which I'd like to see tested and proven as it sounds more probable to me that it's a misinterpretation of flight path as the launch angle itself and sakurai's obv a meanie out to make everything easier

 

[Shadic]

That said, some believe the sakurai angle actually alters the launch angle itself as knockback increases, which I'd like to see tested and proven as it sounds more probable to me that it's a misinterpretation of flight path as the launch angle itself

Well, it causes tripping at lower percentages, so I wouldn't be particularly surprised if the angle changes as well. I swear I've noticed it while testing PSA stuff. My brain could just be going wonky.

 

[Rikana]

Brawl+ staff, update the txt on the website for the gct please. I would like to have 6.0 with no dead frame on jump.

 

[Wind Owl]

It's updated, just lazily. They didn't update the version number but all the codes are up to date.

 

[CountKaiser]

Does it have the jump dead frame removal? I just checked and I don't think it's there.

 

[Wind Owl]

It's not. Shanus released that after 6.0 was released.

 

[grim mouser]

Is "Shield During Dashdance V2" meant to replace the original, or work alongside it? Both V1 and V2 appear in the text file.

 

[Rikana]

It's updated, just lazily. They didn't update the version number but all the codes are up to date.

Thanks for informing me. It would be nice to give it a quick update as I was wondering where I could get the 6.0 txt. It might help others that are confused as well.

 

[Yeroc]

Is "Shield During Dashdance V2" meant to replace the original, or work alongside it? Both V1 and V2 appear in the text file.

It was meant to replace it. You should take out the first code and just use the second.

Likewise, you should take out the old Dash Cancel code and use this one. It's been done for a few days, but I haven't had time to release it.

Dash Cancel v3.0 [Yeroc]
06586038 00000048
00000002 80586068
00000000 00000011
00000006 00000007
00000005 000003FC
00000000 00000004
00000005 00000C72
02010500 80586040
02000401 80FACC84
00080000 00000000
06FACE8C 00000008
00070100 80586038

 

[CountKaiser]

What's the difference?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

So does this new dash cancel code fix the end-of-match freeze problem without making it have the super-sliding effect? If so, then awesome!