Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Rudra]

That brings up a god question, should we give brawl+ tech skill?

What can we add to the game that wont shift the current balance created too heavily?

 

[CountKaiser]

That can be addressed once we determine that the game needs something. But right now, I just want to know if it needs anything?

 

[Revven]

I don't seriously believe Brawl+ needs tech skill at all to be successful. It is too silly to try and create something on our own so I say '**** that' and we keep doing what we're doing.

It would only cause stupid arguments and debate and I think that's quite unnecessary especially if it is over something we are ADDING to the game. Not only that, but, creating something new mechanic wise with the two hackers we have? Probably not gonna happen.

Stop kidding yourselves, we don't need tech skill to be successful.

 

[Magus420]

2 Frame Powershield window instead of Brawls default of 4

Could we change this already? While the in-game values for it may be 4/2 the actual resulting windows are 3/1, which is what matters to the player.

@Kupo, it's 4 frames for attacks and 2 for projectiles in Melee. However the windows between the 2 games aren't directly comparable, since the PS area was a separate smaller area within the shield rather than the entire shield itself, was input timing dependant rather than just animation dependant, and the lightshield function could interfere if it wasn't pressed fast enough. In some ways, it is easier with B+'s 1 frame window, while in others it's easier in Melee.

 

[Deleted member]

Doesn't yoshi's side B has momentum canceling properties?

 

[kupo15]

Ahh, that point about the ring thing makes a ton of sense. Thanks for clearing that up

 

[GuruKid]

Adding more elements to further emphasize tech skill is not needed. The game is just fine as it is. Besides, right now time would be better spent improving the system we currently have.

Remember that part of the reason why regular Brawl has so many players is its short learning curve. A game that is easier to "pick up and play" is much more likely to garner a bigger audience and memberbase than one with more demanding fundamentals. Granted, the "easier" game may not necessarily be a better game than the "tougher" one, but its accessibility definitely helps in maintain a large playerbase.

And most of us back hurr agree to some of that stuff. It'll just take some time to get it in there 'cause we gotta discuss it yo. I mean, I already KNEW Yoshi was pretty **** good, people just don't know how to play him so they think he "sucks" but in reality he doesn't. It's like that with a few other characters too.

Kinda like G&W and his "needed" buffs.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

And most of us back hurr agree to some of that stuff. It'll just take some time to get it in there 'cause we gotta discuss it yo. I mean, I already KNEW Yoshi was pretty **** good, people just don't know how to play him so they think he "sucks" but in reality he doesn't. It's like that with a few other characters too.

D1 was doing pretty **** with Yoshi too if you didn't see.

oh I saw him using yoshi he ***** me pretty bad with d3. yes, d3 vs falcon. too ****ing good lmao I think the main thing is people don't understand is that brawl+ already has depth, a lot of characters are viable, so a lot of counterpicks fall into play. people want to main one character and be able to dominate, but you kinda really need to learn a few for certain match-ups. maybe just me but my falcon sucks against shiek so ill use jiggs. my falcon sucks against d3(d1's at least) so ill use pika..I just try random characters to see who does well against who

 

[MK26]

What can we add to the game that wont shift the current balance created too heavily?

if ive said it once, ive said it a million times: techjumping

 

[thesage]

I just brought up Yoshi since I've seen little to no discussion about him in here. I have no clue whether or not he needed buffs lol.

On adding tech skill: like I've said before, let's balance the game before we worry about stuff like that and "depth."

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

if ive said it once, ive said it a million times: techjumping

lol wut...*thinks*....aw shet! pwn!
how would that work?
tech off celeing and jump downward (prolly use a dair)
tech off a wall and shoot foreward and down to do w/e to them on the way down to the floor
(implying that:
|
|*---___
|..........--_
|__________X____
* = U R HEER...teching it out
X = BAD DOOD HEER...finishing an attack
----___ = path u fly after wall-techjump

tech off floor....u already know maybe even being able to do a sh tech xD

i'd like this....alot xD
but im probably horribly wrong in thinking this is pretty nifty

I just brought up Yoshi since I've seen little to no discussion about him in here. I have no clue whether or not he needed buffs lol.

ive seen nothing EVER on lucas...

 

[bajisci]

I just brought up Yoshi since I've seen little to no discussion about him in here. I have no clue whether or not he needed buffs lol.

On adding tech skill: like I've said before, let's balance the game before we worry about stuff like that and "depth."

yes but adding tech skill or "depth" could unintentinally buff/nerf characters

 

[sagemoon]

That's kinda dumb. pit needed a buff on his up b as a trade for the dtilt spike nerf. Instead now pit becomes worse and will constantly get gimped.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

That's kinda dumb. pit needed a buff on his up b as a trade for the dtilt spike nerf. Instead now pit becomes worse and will constantly get gimped.

because pit is such a horrible character that can't be played on stage at all or gimp other characters, right? I agree with this guy. lets give pit MK's wings and wario's aerial mobility! that shiz would be beast. srsly it would

 

[XSilvenX]

That's kinda dumb. pit needed a buff on his up b as a trade for the dtilt spike nerf. Instead now pit becomes worse and will constantly get gimped.

C'mon man, you know it isn't THAT bad. For the most part you will barely ever have to up-b with Pit if you don't try to use all your jumps like the amateurs shooting arrows back on stage. I mean sure, shoot one or two but don't use ALL your jumps shooting arrows....jesus christ tell me those aren't the easiest kills ever.

I play against Pit a good amount and I can tell you recovery is the least of his problems. I don't really play the dude, I play AGAINST him so understand my perspective on this is sort of one-sided. I do remember gimping Pit a couple of times but that was due to bad decision making on the Pit's part. If you're smart with your first couple of jumps and glide when necessary you really should be fine.

That's the way I see it for most characters with a lot of jumps..they basically get spoiled with their jumps so they use a bunch of their jumps throwing out random stuff and stalling but sooner or later they run out of jumps and they're forced to upb. That's where they went wrong. Take a look at good DDD's in Brawl (it shouldn't matter) You will most likely never see them up-b because it's just like saying "please hit me" they use their jumps to come back and that's it. No fooling around...

because pit is such a horrible character that can't be played on stage at all or gimp other characters, right? I agree with this guy. lets give pit MK's wings and wario's aerial mobility! that shiz would be beast. srsly it would

Your sarcasm is so l337. You're becoming just like your father (that's me), now to train you in the arts of spelling and punctuation




Shameless plug
For everyone who missed the hilarity of the Insomniac Brawl+ stream with D1 commentating don't worry. EVERYTHING WAS RECORDED!

CLICK!

D1 starts commentating at around 2:19:00 (That's 2 hours and 19 minutes, not 2 minutes..) SO FUNNY!

I guess it's also interesting to see how certain rare matchups look. There was a lot of Yoshi for some reason, some DK stuff, a lot of Dedede (he is not bad at all, in fact he's really good still), Glick's amazing Jiggs (so many rests!!) and a bunch of other stuff. End of Part 2 is pretty boring since people went to eat so it's just a bunch of matches with a lot of sandbagging. It's not that entertaining.

 

[KOkingpin]

um im kinda new to the whole brawl+ thing. Ive been playing it hardcore now for like the past 2 weeks and have only played that last two updates. I really Enjoy it a lot. The work you guys do is amazing. Ill try to help with some constructive criticism. Being that I plan to start hosting Tournaments for B+.

I'm not a big fan of no being able to Tech Ganon's Side B. Making if faster so that he doesn't get punished for hitting with it is understandable but having anything that is Auto hit just really isn't all that fair. (btw i'm Ganon and Yoshi main) Although, i think he should have a Bit more knock back at low percentage with his up B on the grab. He can really get punished just for grabbing a lot of people with it. Little Knock back and He pops fairly hit in the air.

As for Yoshi, He doesn't need to be able to jump or Up Smash from his shield. But, His current shield is super gimpy. He is completely vulnerable when going in and when coming out. (I hate to refer to melee) In Melee his shield was great he had frames of invinciblity going in and coming out, so that made up for not being able to do much from shield. He did Slide super far when hit while light shielding but there is no light shield in brawl so cant do much for that.

Btw Capt Falcon's new D-Air hit box is amazing. CF still isnt the best char in the game but he is super fun now. He can short hop and D-Air a crouching Squirtle. And Wolf's new Side B is very well done too.

Hopefully I can be of some help to the brawl+ community.

PS Pit is not bad at all. He has a freaking Glide and like 50 jumps. If im not mistaken Pit can Latch on to the stage with his glide

 

[timothyung]

Ganon's Side B being untechable is OK. The move does nine damage, and can only be linked to his jab, dtilt or ftilt depending on characters. 20% isn't that much for this, his stomp already does 22%. The damage is OK, and this move is not that easy to hit with.
Ganon's Up B is a throw, so we cannot fix it until we have a throw modifier.
Yoshi's out-of-shield animation is already sped up by 2x if you didn't notice.

 

[shanus]

That's kinda dumb. pit needed a buff on his up b as a trade for the dtilt spike nerf. Instead now pit becomes worse and will constantly get gimped.

We are shifting the spike hitbox to be on the tip of his blade instead of the hilt, and moving the sourspot to the hilt. This way the move requires spacing, but will be better than its normal state.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

And most of us back hurr agree to some of that stuff. It'll just take some time to get it in there 'cause we gotta discuss it yo. I mean, I already KNEW Yoshi was pretty **** good, people just don't know how to play him so they think he "sucks" but in reality he doesn't. It's like that with a few other characters too.

D1 was doing pretty **** with Yoshi too if you didn't see.

Yoshi's only decent because of him already being acceptable in vbrawl.
He just got overall buffs from hitstun being in place and what not.

Still his dtilt hitbox should represent the animation, hella annoying.

 

[weinzey]

CLICK!

doesnt work;(

 

[kupo15]

Techjumping from the ground would make that the best option and you would never use the other techs because you can attack immediately from it and IIRC with invincibility.

And no one needs to preach Sagemoon. He knows his **** better than any of us.

 

[Kataefi]

Can I just quickly ask when the next PAL nightly will be released? Or has it been updated now?

 

[PosthumusES]

I'm going to give my 00.02 cents about the overall state of Brawl+. In the early development of Brawl+, we didn't know what was best for it. Then later on constructed critism was gving by the developer of Brawl+, and we went with their suggestions. Then many influx of people discover Brawl+, some hates it and some loves it, but the main issue here is now Brawl+ is not doing what best for the overall game, but instead taking fan-based suggestions, and not fixing the overall game. For example, the ledges of this game became an overall issue, but instead of fixing it, it was ignore, and instead buffs or nerfs were work on characters instead.

The way it heading right now, might not look good for the overall game, because this game has so much potential, but it untap potential , because the core game is not being work on, but instead the characters are. Such as Zelda not going through her falling animation after side-b, You have to ask yourself, Is it needed? And overall it was not, so why work on something uncecessary, when you can instead work on the overall game.

 

[Revven]

I'm going to give my 00.02 cents about the overall state of Brawl+. In the early development of Brawl+, we didn't know what was best for it. Then later on constructed critism was gving by the developer of Brawl+, and we went with their suggestions. Then many influx of people discover Brawl+, some hates it and some loves it, but the main issue here is now Brawl+ is not doing what best for the overall game, but instead taking fan-based suggestions, and not fixing the overall game. For example, the ledges of this game became an overall issue, but instead of fixing it, it was ignore, and instead buffs or nerfs were work on characters instead.

The way it heading right now, might not look good for the overall game, because this game has so much potential, but it untap potential , because the core game is not being work on, but instead the characters are. Such as Zelda not going through her falling animation after side-b, You have to ask yourself, Is it needed? And overall it was not, so why work on something uncecessary, when you can instead work on the overall game.

Hey guess what? We only have two hackers and one of them is working on making the game process the CORE mechanics more efficiently so glitches like people have been having ever so often won't happen. There's only so much you can do with two hackers, both of which are at least 5 hours ahead or so and they both have extremely busy lives. I'm sorry that we can't do **** about that and make magical core mechanic fixes out of nowhere, but, it's something you'll have to put up with for awhile.

 

[timothyung]

Is hitstun nececessary? No. Is balancing nececessary? No. Then why did we do that? Because we want them. It's as simple as that.
You mentioned that ledge is an overall issue, please explain. Is that you feel that the sweetspot is too large?

 

[PosthumusES]

I'm not saying doing it now, but maybe stop giving buff and ners until the core is develops. The core game is the center piece, it going to determine what buffs are nececessary and uncecessary, so it better to wait for it to develops, then handing out bunch of buffs and nerfs without critical thinking.


timothy, Yes it too large, why the hell do I have something that pulls me in? Also the things we but in is okay at the moment, but it feel inferior.

Melee was the perfect smash game overall in the series. When N64 come out it was okay overall, then Melee come and it step the game up all the way to a whole new level, but when Brawl come out, it was not the thing we expected.

Brawl+ decided to fix the problems, but overall the game feel slopy, because you guys feel that it shouldn't follow the road of Melee 2.0. I don't mean add MAD or anything, but why not take the core of that game and apply to Brawl+ so it overall be better.

 

[timothyung]

No one will listen to you until you explain the flaws of the current core game of Brawl+.
What do you think is lacking?

 

[Arkaether]

There is nothing lacking in the "core" game. What do you think was the purpose of the physics changes, the hitstun changes, the hitlag changes, the shieldstun changes, the dash speed changes, etc, etc...?

Those were the changes to the "core" game. The "core" part was the FIRST thing to be finished. The point of the individual character buffs and nerfs are to polish off the game and to balance it as a whole, taking into consideration the new changes of the "core" game.

 

[PosthumusES]

Read my previous post. What the game lacks most is a good core engine and depth. If I have something that auto L-Cancel for me, then all I really need to learn is how to DI and some small techs, and how to combo, and that is it. I feel that the game is not fast-pace, it awards the camper, instead of the persuers.

Another thing is, too much of the same set-up. This game has soo many of the same set-up that it get stale. I see the same set-up that the character does, but in Melee, when you hit someone with a move, your variety of choices expand, rather than sticking to one set-up. I want to see comboes, but not the same one over and over, but rather more options to the attacker.

 

[timothyung]

What you said must be fixed by changing characters...
If you want characters to have more set-ups, you have to change the characters themselves >.>
And you said it awards the camper, and not fast-pace. You sure haven't seen any good Brawl+ matches... maybe yes, but it's much better then vBrawl.

 

[PosthumusES]

I mean just make some attacks have more KB so that it don't follow up as much, and when we do get a throw MOD, modifier grabs to have stronger knockback, so that the same set-up isn't being repeated as much.

 

[Deleted member]

Techjumping from the ground would make that the best option and you would never use the other techs because you can attack immediately from it and IIRC with invincibility.

Of, corse, we're not talking about the techjumping from the teching fix code, that one is way too good, we're talking about one which was just as good an option as the other techs, it has it's own thread, even.

 

[timothyung]

some attacks have more KB=some characters buffed=character changes.
Come on, what do you think is wrong with the core game? And the ledges?

 

[Revven]

Read my previous post. What the game lacks most is a good core engine and depth. If I have something that auto L-Cancel for me, then all I really need to learn is how to DI and some small techs, and how to combo, and that is it. I feel that the game is not fast-pace, it awards the camper, instead of the persuers.

I disagree with the last part. The defense is NOT that good anymore, at all. Camping is less effective unless you're Falco and Falco is NOT as much of a threat as someone like MK is or Wario is or Fox. Camping is not that powerful, at all, you're exaggerating it. =\

 

[PosthumusES]

The core just don't feel fast pace, I mean it don't have the speed that you see in melee, instead it feels sluggish and kinda slow. Ledges should have to hold my hands and pull me up.

Pfff exaggerating, look at Samus, missle camping and oh if you try to touch her Z-Air is there to kick your ***.

 

[Arkaether]

Read my previous post. What the game lacks most is a good core engine and depth. If I have something that auto L-Cancel for me, then all I really need to learn is how to DI and some small techs, and how to combo, and that is it. I feel that the game is not fast-pace, it awards the camper, instead of the persuers.

And if you don't have something that auto L-Cancels for you, then all you really need to learn is how to DI, some small techs, one more small tech, and how to combo. That's a pretty huge difference in depth right there, isn't it?

Another thing is, too much of the same set-up. This game has soo many of the same set-up that it get stale. I see the same set-up that the character does, but in Melee, when you hit someone with a move, your variety of choices expand, rather than sticking to one set-up. I want to see comboes, but not the same one over and over, but rather more options to the attacker.

What same setup? Last I checked, most characters weren't limited to one viable option in every situation.

 

[PosthumusES]

What ever happen to hard work, like in Melee, you always have something you can work on.

Same set-up as in Luigi down-grab to up-tiltx2 and etc.

 

[Arkaether]

What ever happen to hard work, like in Melee, you always have something you can work on.

Same set-up as in Luigi down-grab to up-tiltx2 and etc.

So simple guaranteed options that are useful in multiple situations are worthless? After all, I never saw utilt>rest in Melee, or uthrow>rest. There were so many viable options for Jigglypuff's rest setups.

 

[PosthumusES]

I just don't think seeing the same set-up is good for the game overall, because it better to see better set-up then the same thing over and over.

 

[Arkaether]

So it's better to see better set-ups than the same thing over and over. I don't suppose you've ever thought that once someone is given a better set-up, there's no point to using a worse set-up, meaning you end up with "the same thing over and over"?

Not only that, setups are character specific. This pertains in no way to core game mechanics.

In other words, exactly what is your point? Because you're not making much sense.