Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Me_Aludes]

eh only reason most people say yoshi sucks is cuz he's boring and doesn't have many options. most of the time im either jabbing OOS, or bair spam, or pivot grab baiting. most of his combos are just little tricks, like first jab, ftilt, or uair>dj uair>egg tossing

Well, that's pretty much what I think. He doesn't suck (not top 10 also), he's just one of the most boring characters in B+; so we could try some changes so he's a little more versatile. This is the nightly builds, we can always remove the changes.

IDK what Yoshi mains think about this. I don't even know if anyone mains B+ Yoshi...

 

[stingers]

message lord karn.

 

[CountKaiser]

So yea, I was testing out the Ness djc code and I really like it. I usually play with tap jump off and it was really easy for me to get the timing of djc down. You can still doing rising dj aerials off the ground if you just press the jump button 3 times instead of 2. After around 10 mins of practice I got it down pretty solidly, so I don't really see why others had problems getting the timing down... I wouldn't mind if he went into that weird pre djc animation every time he tried to do a dj (and then he would do a normal dj the next time he jumped).

There are 3 problems I see with the djc however. He gets invincibility during it (I think, since he flashes, no clue about that though), uair doesn't combo that well (not enough hitstun) and can't be done close to the ground since it has too much startup lag (which was the main djc move in the other smash games), and apparently he has shieldbreaker combos (I personally, couldn't test it but that's what Shanus said...).

Djc gives him actually OoS options like djc fair/nair, better gtfo moves, and faster movement. It doesn't really help his combo game since the weak hits of fair don't set up for much besides like a jab if you're luckly, bair is for killing, and nair sends people too low (could set up for tech chases if Ness moved faster lol)), dair can't be used, and uair doesn't have enough hitstun.

I hope the wbr doesn't give up on djc. At first I was skeptical about it, but now I really like it...

Hmmm, so the djc helps him defensively more than offensively? That would explain why I could find little application for it.

Go over to the ness boards and post some applications for djc. Apparently, I'm doing it wrong. =/

 

[thesage]

Well since it's currently not in any nightly, I don't really know where to post it lol.

You could use djc nair to approch, but none of the djc moves really set up for combos that well IMO... I posted pretty much everything I could find about it already though lol.

 

[CountKaiser]

Post it in the ness+ thread that no one pays attention to, lol.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

so how would editing individual hit stun work?
would it be like "X move delivers X hit stun", "X character suffers from X hit stun",or "X character delivers X hitstun throughout all moves"

and what is with yoshi? what does he need to be special? i still think his sheild should be better than everyone elses or somthing.

 

[Shell]

X Character suffers from X hitstun.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

X Character suffers from X hitstun.

how would we dicide who suffers more or less...

maybe their weight? increasing a character like Jiggs's hitstun would make it Hell'a easier to land a bigger combo on, without them flying away too early

or their recovery could be a factor...like how a big hitstun peron suseptable to huge combos would have better recovery to make up for that or bigger defencive options.

ect...

 

[CountKaiser]

Character hitstun is mainly due to floatiness, or lack thereof. Fastfallers suffer less hitstun, while floaties suffer more hitstun.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Character hitstun is mainly due to floatiness, or lack thereof. Fastfallers suffer less hitstun, while floaties suffer more hitstun.

the main thing ppl have been complaining alot about is the combo system of Brawl+

would this piss even more ppl off? and make the combo system easier and spread to the floaties? or would it make it a lil more ballanced? i have no idea atm..it seems like it would do both @_@ ugh..idk

 

[CountKaiser]

I hear it's going to be used for Falcon, Luigi, and maybe wolf.

 

[CloneHat]

I hear it's going to be used for Falcon, Luigi, and maybe wolf.

Why does Wolf need it, just asking?

Once it comes out, we can NOT be as reckless as we've been in the past with codes if we plan to tweak everyone's hitstun.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, Wolf is a FFer, sorta, and his hitstun constant is 34, while most FFers have a hitstun constant of 36.

 

[stingers]

At the Brawl+ tourney we just ran, Yay was shining out of all combos with Wolf. Increasing his hitstun a bit sounds like a fine idea.

 

[CountKaiser]

Giving him a higher hitstun constant would decrease the hitstun, not increase it.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Well, Wolf is a FFer, sorta, and his hitstun constant is 34, while most FFers have a hitstun constant of 36.

Giving him a higher hitstun constant would decrease the hitstun, not increase it.

so wolf stays in hitstun longer than most FFing characters? and we're planning on making it less time in hitstun mode?

 

[stingers]

you want to give him less hitstun?

baaaad idea....but whatever

 

[CountKaiser]

@Mch: Yes.

@stingers: You shouldn't be having trouble comboing wolf, anyway. Yes, his shine is annoying, but it isn't nearly as bad as Luigi's nair.

 

[stingers]

lol you didn't play yay.

seriously, you can't combo wolf. play a good one.

it was like vBrawl playin that guy. hit and ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

it could also be usefull for wolf when he gets smacked really far...cuz of his crap recovery, he's gonna need to get it togeather and regain controll asap in order to be ready to recover...and live

 

[KOkingpin]

Well, that's pretty much what I think. He doesn't suck (not top 10 also), he's just one of the most boring characters in B+; so we could try some changes so he's a little more versatile. This is the nightly builds, we can always remove the changes. IDK what Yoshi mains think about this. I don't even know if anyone mains B+ Yoshi...

im a yoshi main. 64,melee, and brawl. And like in melee im torn between him and ganon in b+.
what yoshi needs for comboing is djc. Yoshi can pressure a shield pretty well and bair and nair and then if he hits his jabs he gets a grab on most chars. You could give his final hit box on back air a hit box that knocks them vertically and tone down the damage a hair to compensate. Say from like 12 max to 9.

 

[Plum]

@Mch: Yes.

@stingers: You shouldn't be having trouble comboing wolf, anyway. Yes, his shine is annoying, but it isn't nearly as bad as Luigi's nair.

It isn't nearly as bad as Luigi's Nair just because of how naturally resistant Luigi already is to combos.

If Wolf had physics like that, his Shine would easily trump it with the invincibility frames. IIRC the shine comes out invincible on frame 1 (forget when it hits, but the invincibility is the key part), Luigi's Nair hits frame 3.

Though Luigi would still have the ability to set up for for his great combo game, and even into Up B, so it naturally has solid advantages over the shine. It's pretty ridiculous that he can turn your offensive success completely against you and then combo into an Up B for the stock, but that's exactly what makes Luigi so great. Resistant to combos, combo machine, KO potential (in practice though he seems to kill fairly late, around 120 minus the occasional Fsmash or grounded Up B).

It's hard to say if Wolf truly does need it; he does suffer more hitstun then those in his class but he does have the shine, which is something a guy like Falcon would kill for.

At the same time I don't even know if Luigi needs any sort of fix, because his weaknesses are very pronounced.

I do give my support towards giving Falcon lessened hitstun though. Mostly because it might fix some stupid things on him like the guaranteed CG's. He would still be very easy to combo with his gravity, but hopefully not stupidly easy.

 

[GPDP]

IMO, Brawl+ should not go gold until we have character-specific hitstun. Too many characters are limited in several regards because of how hitstun works: the floatier a character is, the less hitstun they suffer.

The problem with this is making a character floatier also makes them lighter and more sluggish. Bowser is a good example of what is wrong in taking this approach. In order for him to experience less hitstun and thus be less comboable, his dgrav was decreased, which makes him floatier and lighter. This means that he falls like a feather, which hurts his shffl game, and it makes him get launched farther by attacks, which makes him die earlier. Now, I don't know about you, but it makes no sense that a beast like Bowser should be so floaty and light, to the point that Fox dies later than he does. He should be a nice, heavy character.

Kupo's approach towards fixing this problem is through a universal dgrav setting, but I find that approach to be unsatisfactory as well. Many characters have benefited tremendously from unique gravity settings that truly bring out the best in them, and I don't feel that making hitstun affect everyone more or less the same is worth messing with all that character gravity tweaking.

Character-specific hitstun will let us have our cake and eat it, too. We'll be able to tweak characters currently limited by hitstun problems to play and feel even better. Bowser will at last be a heavy character without being a complete sandbag in the process.

Which brings me to another point: shouldn't we also get a character weight modifier, kinda like the one used for the Meta-Knight's Flimsy Armor code? I think it could be another useful balancing tool. Together with character-specific hitstun, it could be used to truly separate characters into distinct weight classes.

 

[CountKaiser]

Wolf's shine hits on frame 7 I believe.

I've always thought that Luigi should be getting more hitstun done to him. I don't want him to be easily combod, I just comboing him to be a bit more feasible. He could be like Peach or Wario in terms of resilience to combos.

 

[Plum]

IMO, Brawl+ should not go gold until we have character-specific hitstun. Too many characters are limited in several regards because of how hitstun works: the floatier a character is, the less hitstun they suffer.

The problem with this is making a character floatier also makes them lighter and more sluggish. Bowser is a good example of what is wrong in taking this approach. In order for him to experience less hitstun and thus be less comboable, his dgrav was decreased, which makes him floatier and lighter. This means that he falls like a feather, which hurts his shffl game, and it makes him get launched farther by attacks, which makes him die earlier. Now, I don't know about you, but it makes no sense that a beast like Bowser should be so floaty and light, to the point that Fox dies later than he does. He should be a nice, heavy character.

Kupo's approach towards fixing this problem is through a universal dgrav setting, but I find that approach to be unsatisfactory as well. Many characters have benefited tremendously from unique gravity settings that truly bring out the best in them, and I don't feel that making hitstun affect everyone more or less the same is worth messing with all that character gravity tweaking.

Character-specific hitstun will let us have our cake and eat it, too. We'll be able to tweak characters currently limited by hitstun problems to play and feel even better. Bowser will at last be a heavy character without being a complete sandbag in the process.

Which brings me to another point: shouldn't we also get a character weight modifier, kinda like the one used for the Meta-Knight's Flimsy Armor code? I think it could be another useful balancing tool. Together with character-specific hitstun, it could be used to truly separate characters into distinct weight classes.

Actually, each character is given a constant value of hitstun. Multiply the launch speed of an attack (Brawl can determine the launch speed of an attack for you at the endgame stat screen) by the histun of the game (B+ uses .4865 iirc) and then divide by the character's hitstun value. You get the number of frames of hitstun.

Confusing equation aside, floatier characters have a lower constant for division, while fast fallers are given a higher value. That gives floaty characters more frames of hitstun than fast fallers. To a degree it makes up for their resistance to combos, but obviously not completely because floaties are clearly much harder to combo. Think of it as more of a measure to make it at least possible to combo them.

But that's all technical; I do agree that characters can really be optimized with it. Does every character need it? Absolutely not, but those at the very extremes of being hard/easy to combo could be looked into.

We just have to be patient. Almas will finish the new engine when he finishes it; it sucks only having 2 coders available but we can't rush him. Once it is done, then finalizing characters will finally be possible, as well as character specific hitstun and iirc the ability to alter the gravity of a specific move without touching the character gravity. I can't wait for the new engine, but that's all we can do... wait.

 

[MK26]

Techjumping from the ground would make that the best option and you would never use the other techs because you can attack immediately from it and IIRC with invincibility.

And no one needs to preach Sagemoon. He knows his **** better than any of us.

I never said "techjumping in its present form", i said "techjumping"

Of, corse, we're not talking about the techjumping from the teching fix code, that one is way too good, we're talking about one which was just as good an option as the other techs, it has it's own thread, even.

^^ q4IWantedTo

I hear it's going to be used for Falcon, Luigi, and maybe wolf.

I though G&W would be in there as well? And I've never heard of Wolf being included until now...

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I never said "techjumping in its present form", i said "techjumping"

what kupo was referring to is what most of us consider a proposed tech jumping technique would do. if you have a different idea for what tech jumping is, why don't you say so?

 

[XSilvenX]

doesnt work;(

Sorry about that peeps. Ustream gave me the "while logged in" link which will never work for anyone else. Here's the working one, should work for everyone. My bad

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1715680

 

[MK26]

what kupo was referring to is what most of us consider a proposed tech jumping technique would do. if you have a different idea for what tech jumping is, why don't you say so?

obviously something not broken...a momentum-based jump (ie if you get hit to the left your jump is up and left, you get spiked you jump straight up) with a limited number of invincibility frames (perhaps 2/3 to 1/2 of the height of the jump) and a large amount of immobility afterward (ending somewhere between slightly past the apex of the jump and almost touching the ground)
A fastfaller, having a shorter techjump due to having higher gravities, would be close to the apex of his techjump when its invincibility ends, as well as being close to teh ground when the immobility ends. A floaty, on the other hand, would move at less steep of a curve, and would be able to move at a higher point, even though both characters would have the same frame length of the jump

As close an approximation I'm going to get...try to envision the slants as curves, not straught lines...the apex would be in the middle of the underscores...
A = ff'er, B = floaty
Red = invincible, White = vulnerable

A
    __
   /  [COLOR="red"]\[/COLOR]
  /    [COLOR="red"]\[/COLOR]
 /     [COLOR="red"] \
         \[/COLOR]

B
  ____
 /    \
/   [COLOR="Red"]   \
        \
         \
          \[/COLOR]

I have no clue as to the ratio of invincible to immobile frames, but it shoul be at a level where it's very difficult to punish a techjump if you do not predict it, but fairly easy to punish if you do...in other words, not bad, but not broken. Maybe a 1/1 or 2/3 ratio would work, but idk

 

[Deleted member]

Here's the techjumping thread, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222905&highlight=techjumping

 

[Sudai]

TL;DR: Make sure adding techjumping would help to balance tech chasing and not just throw things futher onto the defender's side.

Would techjumping really be a good idea? Tech chasing is already balls hard. There's 4 options when hitting the ground already and one of them literally opens up 8 more options (doing one of the 4 immediately or delaying).

Techjumping adds 1-3 (depending on if we go with momentum based or user input based) options. I think we should take a serious look at tech chasing and see if there needs to be a buff on the defensive side or not. If anything, I'd say we need to buff the offensive side of techchasing, but that's personal opinion.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

falco's back throw is broken. "doneskies combo"
falco:
bthrow>your doneskies as falco rides and/or teabags you>dair/suicide

im not sure who it works on, or what set was used, but it worked on marth.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

i always thought a tech jump would send you straight up...not like a walljump
maybe L/R + UP = straight up, and L/R + X/Y = walljump from the floor
maybe even timing could lead ot a sh or fh?

 

[XSilvenX]

Tech jumping is definitely NOT necessary. There are plenty of tech options already but people of course are getting carried away with the idea of modding Brawl. *sigh* This is why I'm not in favor of custom chars either, people just get carried away and it'll just never end. When has any of you been playing Smash and said "you know what? I keep getting techchased, I wish I could jump out of my techs"...seriously *_*

Brawl+'s main goal was to fix vBrawl's problems, there is no need to add unnecessary "flare" to the game especially at this stage (so close to gold). The idea sounds interesting I must admit but the way it's implemented (via cheats) is gonna make it buggy and look plain stupid since the animation will most likely look funny. If however it isn't and it warrants actual use in a real match then I'm all for it but it just sounds so fail especially considering the way it's implemented.

 

[Sterowent]

Edit: What i said, hah

silv's probably right, i was a bit too full of zeal here. wanted something more intuitive, but people can get by with DI.

more or less, my idea was the option of possibly More momentum: we really don't need that now, i guess.

i Do believe we need more techniques, though. *will keep brainstorming*

 

[XSilvenX]

Just checked out 6/26 build and....

Upb for Marth is better but still sucks considering ...

New upb kills Mario at 153 from the middle of Battlefield
Old upb kills Mario at 171 from the middle of Battlefield
vBrawl upb kills Mario at 134 from the middle of Battlefield

Basically from vBrawl the move requires roughly 20 more percent (on Mario) to kill...it'd be cool if the gap wasn't so huge. Maybe requiring 143, instead of 153 on Mario. That way it's not as OP in vBrawl but not so crappy... Sorry to bring this up again but yeah. Any other Marth players played around with it? You guys satisfied? I'm not. I mean, it's only fair to give this move some more viability since you guys nerfed fair and uair

What you said...

I don't see any point in that when people can already vary their momentum with aerial DI. If you don't wanna go too far from a jump, you jump and hold back to restrict some of the forward momentum.. if on the other hand you do want to go as far as possible, you hold forward and go full force with the momentum you have All in all momentum isn't a huge deal with most characters as it is. Most of that stuff has been fixed by now. More overzealousness for advanced techs imo...

 

[goodoldganon]

Tech jumping is definitely NOT necessary. There are plenty of tech options already but people of course are getting carried away with the idea of modding Brawl. *sigh* This is why I'm not in favor of custom chars either, people just get carried away and it'll just never end. When has any of you been playing Smash and said "you know what? I keep getting techchased, I wish I could jump out of my techs"...seriously *_*

Brawl+'s main goal was to fix vBrawl's problems, there is no need to add unnecessary "flare" to the game especially at this stage (so close to gold). The idea sounds interesting I must admit but the way it's implemented (via cheats) is gonna make it buggy and look plain stupid since the animation will most likely look funny. If however it isn't and it warrants actual use in a real match then I'm all for it but it just sounds so fail especially considering the way it's implemented.

Gonna respond to this and the Marth post

The way Brawl's engine is designed it will always be a relatively easy game to pick up. And frankly, that isn't really that big of a problem. We have gone off target a few times (Falco's shine) but the main goal of Brawl+ was to enhance the competitive nature and offensive values of vBrawl, not create an entirely new game. Adding something like tech jumping will only throw a whole new wrench in the works, something I don't feel like rebalancing around. Besides, teching is fine. Tech chasing needs more help then teching options. I think ledge teching is gonna add plenty to Brawl+ and will be all of depth Brawl+ will need.

About Marth.

Frankly, we felt he was too good and he did not need a 'reliable' (notice the quotes) killer. Marth builds damage well, spaces well, juggles ok, and is pretty resilient to combos. He should have to work harder for his KOs. I'm always willing to listen we may have nerfed Marth too hard (many of our new BRoomers feel Marth isn't as good as the originals thought) I personally feel Marth is fine right now, but we'll look into if the Up-b is still too nerfed.

 

[XSilvenX]

Alright man it's not a huge issue, as long as it can still get them far enough away to make the move worth it and occasionally kill it's whatever.

But umm on a side note just to clarify something...Ivy's dthrow to upair is a legit KO combo. I remember someone saying it a veryyy long time ago that it doesn't combo but it certainly does. It reads as 2 consecutive hits in training mode. Just thought I'd mention that..

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Give Yoshi's Egg roll more horizontal momentum in the air....
Again if it were possible to start from the momentum you were moving at in the air...perfect.
And decrease the height the opponent goes (as an egg) after egg lay if possible, so that theres more control on the opponent after using it. Making the move a nice way to change the momentum.

 

[JCaesar]

Plenty of stuff registers as a combo in training mode when you don't DI...