Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Swordplay]

1) There is not such thing as a random footstool. Only accidental footstools.

2) I think tech jumping is a poor idea because it tech chasers that need help, not people put into tech situations. As an analogy, this reminds me of the NADT argument. Tech jumping would always be the best option for the reasons based on what I have heard. The flip side of course is that it becomes VERY predictable and thus won't be OP.

3) Is tech jumping REALLY worth our time right now when there are much more IMPORTANT codes we need such as a throw code????? I think its all very inefficient use of our time and we should be putting our time towards things that are "more valuable." After that, we can bicker about the small details, adding depth and so on. But COME ON. Lets fix the game first then we'll add to it. I'm a strong believer that you should do things in certain order or you will have to go back and redo-them. However, if all we can do is wait for these codes, and small talk about this kind of stuff (ex/ techjumping) keeps people occupied and most importantly interested, then please continue...........

I found a glitch. If you do a grounded murder choke at the edge, the choked person falls through the air in their standing animation. As in, what they would look like on the stage. I found this on Ike, I'll test other characters tomorrow.

4) I mentioned in in the IRC........2 days ago.........They've known for a while, don't make them pull their hair out.

 

[VietGeek]

Btw, tech jumping is also really bad atm because teching in general is way too fast. 1.3x is perfect on someone with a slow tech like Falcon (Sakurai would make Capt. be a joke in everyway), but most characters have extraordinarily fast techs. It should be toned down a bit before gold release.

Since at that point, messing with core mechanics would be a big no-no.

 

[Revven]

I know it's not. Still the fact that yall are even considering it is just dumb. When people make ideas like this just say no point blank.

Who said the WBR was supporting techjumping...? Nobody did. It's just a few fellows ideas that probably won't come to fruition.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

2) I think tech jumping is a poor idea because it tech chasers that need help, not people put into tech situations. As an analogy, this reminds me of the NADT argument. Tech jumping would always be the best option for the reasons based on what I have heard. The flip side of course is that it becomes VERY predictable and thus won't be OP.

i say put techjumping in...
its not that bad,
its basicly a get-up attack, but in the air and using an areal
it can be defended just like a get up attack, countered like one, used like one(to attack), and treated like one in every way.
it would sorta be a trade off for speed(techjump) and range (get up)

its good against some charactes, bad against others.


now that i think about it, teching could actually be very bad in alot of situations since it gives you no chance for offencive retaliation.. its either lose, or dont win: the only thing that can happen to you is A: not get hit and do nothing after(not win) or you can B: get chaced and hit again(lose)

when u wanna strike back then u have to let ur body slam into the ground...now u can attack with a getup attack

 

[XSilvenX]

Brawl+ livestream from Glick's.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/insomniac-smashfest

 

[kupo15]

How about instead of discussing how something that doesn't exist yet is broken, you discuss how to make it not broken.
:

Id rather not waste my time thinking of ways to improve something I don't even want in the game.

Brawl+ is a great game and yes it adds more depth and competitive nature to the game of brawl. But thats it. Lets not act like this project is going to be NEARLY as deep as melee is cause point blank it's not. Anyone can pick up brawl+ and pwn with any char in a matter of days. The fact that fox can do all his crazy melee shenanigans WITHOUT THE TECH SKILL needed in melee proves this point. Wasn't the main focus of brawl+ simply to deepen the regualr game of brawl? What exactly is the point of adding brawl+ exclusive at's? Like i said this is a matter of adding stuff simply cause you have the power to and not cause it's needed.

QFT

Personally, seeing how b+'s main objective is "make the right decions, no tech skill required" if you wanted to deepen the experience of the game without adding techniques, just get rid of hitstun because without melee's hardcore technique based game style, there should be no reason why you should get rewarded with easy combos. If you look at it from this perspective, hitstun in b+ just holds your hand and allows for crazy stuff to happen with relative ease. Seeing how its really hard to combo well without hitstun, this means more correct decisions (that require a lot more thought than just compensating for DI) need to be made on a more regular basis which fits perfectly into the current b+ mindset. It took me a while to realize what those posters actually meant when they said "I don't like hitstun"

But of course no one would ever do that because it seems like people just want an easy melee

 

[MK26]

Disclaimer: Before I start, I realize that techjumping has very little of a chance to be implemented in Brawl+. Also, I just tried to submit this, but it said the submission could not be processed... :/
So im re-writing this in Word, in condensed form, before I post it

Tech jumping is definitely NOT necessary. There are plenty of tech options already but people of course are getting carried away with the idea of modding Brawl. *sigh* This is why I'm not in favor of custom chars either, people just get carried away and it'll just never end. When has any of you been playing Smash and said "you know what? I keep getting techchased, I wish I could jump out of my techs"...seriously *_*

Brawl+'s main goal was to fix vBrawl's problems, there is no need to add unnecessary "flare" to the game especially at this stage (so close to gold). The idea sounds interesting I must admit but the way it's implemented (via cheats) is gonna make it buggy and look plain stupid since the animation will most likely look funny. If however it isn't and it warrants actual use in a real match then I'm all for it but it just sounds so fail especially considering the way it's implemented.

Of course it isn’t necessary – the game’s been going fine so far, has it not? I’m not demanding it, Im asking for the idea to be acknowledged and tested.
Techjumping is nowhere near as big as adding a new character; don’t even go there. Then again, if you’re against modding the game, what are you doing in the Smash Workshop anyway?
And as far as I know, the animation will be the same as the walltech animation, except sped up or slowed down at some points. How buggy that would turn out i don’t know.
At least you’re willing to try out a balanced version of techjumping...that’s more than i can say for most of the people here

2) I think tech jumping is a poor idea because it tech chasers that need help, not people put into tech situations. As an analogy, this reminds me of the NADT argument. Tech jumping would always be the best option for the reasons based on what I have heard. The flip side of course is that it becomes VERY predictable and thus won't be OP.

3) Is tech jumping REALLY worth our time right now when there are much more IMPORTANT codes we need such as a throw code????? I think its all very inefficient use of our time and we should be putting our time towards things that are "more valuable." After that, we can bicker about the small details, adding depth and so on. But COME ON. Lets fix the game first then we'll add to it. I'm a strong believer that you should do things in certain order or you will have to go back and redo-them. However, if all we can do is wait for these codes, and small talk about this kind of stuff (ex/ techjumping) keeps people occupied and most importantly interested, then please continue...........

@2) If techjumping was overpowered, we wouldn’t include it. Either that or we’d tone it down until it became one of many options, rather than simply the best in every situation

@3) Of course the throw modifier takes precedence. I’m willing to wait. I’d rather have a great game without techjumping than a buggy one with it.

People exaggreate how good tech jumping would be. Tech jumping would have less invincibility and just as much lag as techrolling (or at least that's the only way to make it balanced imo), so the only advantage would be being in the air at the end instead of on the ground.

Though, I think there are more than enough options for when you hit the ground atm. It's just that I hate to see people blow things out of proportion like that. ANY tech can be balanced, some are simply not worth the time and effort (not that it can't be done).

THISSSSSSSSSS. Read this post. Then read it again. If that doesn’t address your main concern, read my post. If you still have a question, don’t hesitate to ask.

Problem. Not only does the straight up tech not exist, but you would still be able to aerial in invincibility. There is no way anyone would ever tech in place or tech roll when you have a tech that is hard to punish. Don't add this

No straight up tech? Darn. But we should be able to do something with the attacking in invincibility with the Frame speed or Conditional action modifiers. And once again, if it was op, we wouldn’t add it.

Now ppl are requesting tech jumping...*sigh*. Its the worst idea EVER it would practically mean tech chasing isnt a viable strategy anymore. *leaves once more*

Ugh. AN OVERPOWERED TECHJUMP WOULD NEVER EVER BE INCLUDED IN BRAWL+. EVER.

Who said the WBR was supporting techjumping...? Nobody did. It's just a few fellows ideas that probably won't come to fruition.

This makes me sad.

======

Other notes:
Balance: Techjumping can’t possibly ruin the balance we’ve created. Even if it does, we can tweak it. Is it a bad option? Lengthen the invincibility or shorten immobility. Reverse if it ends up OP. Can a character break out of combos too easily? Modify it specifically for that character. Does it push the options too far in favour of the techer, rather than the techchaser? Simply nerf all defensive options slightly, including techjumping. The frame speed mod engine is your friend. If we can’t satisfactorily fix it, i have no problem with scrapping it.

Publicity: Of course, this is minor, but techjumping would help remove some of the Melee 2.0 stigma by adding a completely new option to gameplay, rather than simply reinstating old ideas.

Plausibility: Im suggesting techjumping because it is plausible. We’ve already had a code that had it (despite it being unintentional and imperfect), so it’s not like this will never happen...

Give it a chance: Don’t kill the idea in the womb. Wait for a code (however long it may take), and test it. Dont just say “OH NOEZ TECHJUMPING IS COMPLETELY OP AND WILL RUIN THE BEAUTIFUL GAME WE’VE CREATED WITH OUR BARE HANDS!”

======

I probably forgot something i wrote before. Oh well.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

this thing isn't even close to melee.. maybe just falcon himself. im not sure, alot of experienced melee players (including myself) think brawl+ is alright at the most. I never heard of someone wanting a easy melee, but i agree that this game is way too easy as is compared to vbrawl.

 

[kupo15]

this thing isn't even close to melee.. maybe just falcon himself. im not sure, alot of experienced melee players (including myself) think brawl+ is alright at the most. I never heard of someone wanting a easy melee, but i agree that this game is way too easy as is compared to vbrawl.

Yea, saying people want an easy melee was a bad assumption on my part. But yea, compared to vbrawl it probably is easier

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

well first thing, i love my b+.

that aside though, vbrawl definitely is ALOT more harder. the matchups are just more fleshed out and alot of spacing is required, its just that the game is boring and has like two characters.

b+ is really fun, but the thing is, is WHY is it easier? i've been trying to find out forever. i know it is easy, just never found the cause. the game is faster which should make it more complex, but i guess not.

 

[Sudai]

You don't have to think as much in B+ because one punish does a -lot- more than it did in vBrawl. You have to be more careful because you get punished harder, but it also means that there's a lot less decision making going on. That's probably why you feel it's easier.

 

[VietGeek]

The game is easier because of how harsh its punishment system is, but how little technical skill is required for most characters to capitalize efficiently (Brawl seems harder because very few characters can punish "harshly" and the game engine is always more forgiving than in other games toward the defender). Play a brilliant Ganondorf and one mistake will lead to a stock loss.

And this game is made off of Brawl. Brawl is a shallow game. Who wins? The best players, but that's all because of years of experience in various competitive games and/or because they're extremely talented.

Face it, just like vBrawl, the most talented players will win; the ones with the best reaction times and mental skill. There isn't any emphasis on tech skill that would possibly make up for that if you would happen to lack something in the two aforementioned categories.

And that's why it seems easier. Or how I feel why it is.

 

[Revven]

well first thing, i love my b+.

that aside though, vbrawl definitely is ALOT more harder. the matchups are just more fleshed out and alot of spacing is required, its just that the game is boring and has like two characters.

b+ is really fun, but the thing is, is WHY is it easier? i've been trying to find out forever. i know it is easy, just never found the cause. the game is faster which should make it more complex, but i guess not.

It's easier because of the inherent design of the game. Look at the Bthrows, Uthrows, and some of the moves in this game. The only way to technically fix it to accommodate the hitstun increase would be to edit ALL the hitboxes of moves that lead to easy setups and make them slightly more risky to use to add depth. But, then that takes too long and you may unintentionally nerf characters.

Obviously, that's a long process of trial and error, longer than just balancing the characters. Character specific hitstun would fix the "easiness" as we could distribute the hitstun to characters who may need more or who may need less so the combos on them may be harder to do or actually have some form of easiness to them or have a middle ground to them (i.e Luigi needs more hitstun but, NOT a lot still, he is an example of someone middlegrounded). The hitstun is still A LOT LESS than Melee. It's just that when you speed this game up and nerf the shields, things just work for the better because of the way the moves were designed.

The moves were designed with BRAWL in mind, meaning NO HITSTUN. When you APPLY hitstun, that obviously changes the way the move works and may make it work in more ways than one. An example of a move gone horribly awry from the hitstun change would be Luigi's jab. He had Jab > Up B on half if not most of the cast (of course this is not the case anymore). It's an example of a move that originally COULD do that but, wasn't on everyone before. Hitstun changed it so much that the move became even better than originally.

And then there are moves that don't lend themselves well to the hitstun changes and those are all fine and dandy assuming they are inherently bad moves (i.e Fox's Dtilt). In any case, my point is, the way the game was designed (no matter if it had hitstun early on or not) without hitstun and adding the hitstun and gravity back in, just messes everything up. Then account for dash speed and momentum and characters can get inside each other better.

It's only easier because of the way Brawl was designed. Character specific hitstun would somewhat remedy the "easiness" but it is certainly not going to be the "grace of God" if you will.

/rambling

 

[The_Guide]

4) I mentioned in in the IRC........2 days ago.........They've known for a while, don't make them pull their hair out.[/QUOTE]

Lol, sorry. I didn't see it in this thread, so I assumed it was undiscovered. The last thing I want to do is hassle the programmers. You guys rock!

Anyways, it would probably save you guys the trouble of endlessly explaining stuff to people if you updated the known bugs section. There are bound to be people like me who don't frequent the chat, or don't have the honor of being a wbr'r. This thread is all that non-community members really have for information like that.

 

[polyopulis]

proposal
why not build B+ from the ground up or at least keep brawl+ and make a new modding project? you will say that it will take too much time. that is true with current conditions but i think we could change those conditions by developing tools to mod brawl. what i mean is something like create an interface where you can change properties of all moves by changing numbers in boxes or moving sliders rather than looking at hex (sort of like Diablo 2 hero editor program). this would allow hackers to modify moves quickly and would allow more people to hack (and it would give the "noobs" something fun to play around with). of course this tool would be limited but you could edit most stuff with it...
would such a tool be possible to make? would it be very difficult to make?

 

[Problem2]

I think that it is all the speed mods that were made to make moves safer. I still can't get over speeding up Link's d-air instead of doing something like making it stronger. (The move is supposed to be a risk!)

Like everyone stated. Right now, I feel like Brawl is more challenging. Brawl+ needs more of a way to bait out attacks, or at least moves that can be baited and then punished...

 

[FrozenHobo]

perhaps removing auto L-canceling and increasing the number of frames to activate it manually? it adds slight technical skill... not much, but some.

 

[stingers]

i agree adding in a natural-feeling manual l-cancelling would be amazing.

 

[Arkaether]

perhaps removing auto L-canceling and increasing the number of frames to activate it manually? it adds slight technical skill... not much, but some.

i agree adding in a natural-feeling manual l-cancelling would be amazing.

......

It's like this entire thread is completely pointless.

 

[stingers]

ark, please shut up

melee nostalgia forever

 

[FrozenHobo]

well, its just that adding auto L-canceling takes away the need to have skill at L-canceling/recovering from laggy attacks faster (see: AUTO L-canceling). removing the auto would be quick fix to the whole "feels less technical" problem.

kind of like a 'tech band-aid'

 

[polyopulis]

of all the melee techs, l canceling is the stupidest... its just one extra input to make you go a little bit faster. it doesn't add depth to the game, just difficulty. however, the argument against wavedashing is just "don't want melee 2.0" because it adds depth.

 

[stingers]

what? it adds technical skill, which is what people are *****ing about. depth comes from movement, adding in advanced movement techniques adds depth.

 

[Arkaether]

ark, please shut up

melee nostalgia forever

Don't hate cuz I make good points, yo.

what? it adds technical skill, which is what people are *****ing about.

...no it don't.

depth comes from movement, adding in advanced movement techniques adds depth.

...no it don't.

Also, lol you used the word depth.

well, its just that adding auto L-canceling takes away the need to have skill at L-canceling/recovering from laggy attacks faster (see: AUTO L-canceling). removing the auto would be quick fix to the whole "feels less technical" problem.

kind of like a 'tech band-aid'

This has been flogged to death for months. It is not coming back. L-canceling is not technical, it takes no skill, and ends up serving no real purpose.

 

[FrozenHobo]

of all the melee techs, l canceling is the stupidest... its just one extra input to make you go a little bit faster. it doesn't add depth to the game, just difficulty. however, the argument against wavedashing is just "don't want melee 2.0" because it adds depth.

what does wavedashing have to do with anything? and it can add some *shudder* depth *shudder* because it can separate good players from lesser players. good players use the l-canceling to speed up their combos/recover faster while lesser players will just play through that extra landing lag making them play slightly slower than people who know how to use l-canceling.

 

[stingers]

i find you annoying. you didn't make any point. i just said i wanted manual l cancelling in. I still do. i dont see what you're trying to accomplish besides being annoying.

if you're trying to troll me then gj, you succeeded

 

[FrozenHobo]

This has been flogged to death for months. It is not coming back. L-canceling is not technical, it takes no skill, and ends up serving no real purpose.

i can appreciate that *remembers footstool arguments* but people are asking for the game to be more technical and i just said making l-canceling manual would be a quick fix.

(watch this explode into another argument)

 

[Arkaether]

i find you annoying. you didn't make any point. i just said i wanted manual l cancelling in. I still do. i dont see what you're trying to accomplish besides being annoying.

if you're trying to troll me then gj, you succeeded

I'm glad you think that everybody who disagrees with you is a troll. This, of course, coming from the guy that gets pissed off and starts screaming "SHUT THE **** UP" when someone mentions that Brawl+ has combos.

i can appreciate that *remembers footstool arguments* but people are asking for the game to be more technical and i just said making l-canceling manual would be a quick fix.

(watch this explode into another argument)

We don't want "quick fixes". L-canceling does not increase the technicality of the game. We want actual depth, not superficial little patches that serve no significant purpose nor advance the game.

 

[FrozenHobo]

its 2 am. i don't care enough to argue.

 

[Deleted member]

We don't want "quick fixes". L-canceling does not increase the technicality of the game. We want actual depth, not superficial little patches that serve no significant purpose nor advance the game.

Are you ****ing stupid?

 

[stingers]

listen, Arkaether. listen closely because I'm right.

YOU are without a doubt the only person I have ever despised on this forum. I do not think that everyone who disagrees with me is a troll, in fact, you are the only person I have ever seriously called a troll in all 4,100 posts I have made on Smashboards.

I was just saying that Manual L Cancelling would be awesome and a fun addition to Brawl+ before you came in and annoyed me again with your irritant, know-it-all attitude. There has not been one post you have ever made on this site towards me that has not been completely negative and argumentative. I believe you are absolutely incapable of letting something slide and admitting you were wrong, so you're just going to type up a post in response to this detailing every little point that you feel you need to argue with me about because you just ****ing love to do that.

Believe me, I will feel like the king of the whole god**** world if what I just said stopped you from doing that.

 

[Arkaether]

Are you ****ing stupid?

Thank you for your deep and insightful comment which has enlightened me as to the weaknesses and incorrect sections of my argument. I am afraid that you have completely convinced me as to how astoundingly correct you are and that I am so incredibly inferior to you in terms of intelligence that I will no longer bring up points because of your unbelievably witty rebukes.

listen, Arkaether. listen closely because I'm right.

...right.

YOU are without a doubt the only person I have ever despised on this forum. I do not think that everyone who disagrees with me is a troll, in fact, you are the only person I have ever seriously called a troll in all 4,100 posts I have made on Smashboards.

...and?

I mean, yeah, sure, I'm glad to know you hate me, but I don't particularly much care either way.

I was just saying that Manual L Cancelling would be awesome and a fun addition to Brawl+ before you came in and annoyed me again with your irritant, know-it-all attitude.

I guess you're ignoring the, what, several dozen times in which manual l-canceling has been brought up, each and every time of which it was shot down, with plentiful reasons given as to why? I'm sure if someone came in posting "HEY GUYS LET'S BRING MELEE AIRDODGE" you would welcome him with open arms, right?

There has not been one post you have ever made on this site towards me that has not been completely negative and argumentative. I believe you are absolutely incapable of letting something slide and admitting you were wrong, so you're just going to type up a post in response to this detailing every little point that you feel you need to argue with me about because you just ****ing love to do that.

What can I say, it's my nature. Don't blame me for disagreeing with you. And I have no idea where you're getting this idea that I have a personal vendetta against you. I haven't ever paid any attention to you in the first place except when you were *****ing about how broken marth was without any real reason besides that you sucked against him. And enough people do that already that you haven't stood out in the least.

Believe me, I will feel like the king of the whole god**** world if what I just said stopped you from doing that.

You failed. v:

 

[stingers]

Big. ****ing. Surprise.

 

[Arkaether]

Big. ****ing. Surprise.

So can we move on and stop with the dramafest? Christ, you're acting like an angsty teen.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i just noticed you both are from North Carolina....

 

[Deleted member]

Thank you for your deep and insightful comment which has enlightened me as to the weaknesses and incorrect sections of my argument. I am afraid that you have completely convinced me as to how astoundingly correct you are and that I am so incredibly inferior to you in terms of intelligence that I will no longer bring up points because of your unbelievably witty rebukes.

I'm just sick of you complete and utter random noobs spewing nonsense about fighting games in general. You seriously do not know what depth means if you think that about l-canceling in Brawl+. I half didn't take you seriously; I don't know how you could possibly find L-canceling (which has been in every Smash except for ****ty vBrawl) to be anything but game-expanding. L-canceling in Brawl+, while FrozenPopo called it a quick fix, would be nothing of the sort. You instantly. INSTANTLY. widen the learning curve. That means Brawl+ becomes more competitive, deeper, and for those who like an obvious gap between the good and bad players.. well, an obvious gap between good and bad players. This, and more, all through removing auto-canceling.

But no, because you are a silly vBrawl nublet who has no experience pressing buttons fast. BTW, I stopped being respectful towards you when you completely ignored my post regarding your argument with GHNeko towards depth.

TL;DR - stop shooting down ideas to make Brawl+ more competitive because you like your games to be played with a Fisher Price controller. Take any popular competitive game and you will see that there are OBVIOUS ATs. Nothing of the sort exist in vBrawl or Brawl+.

 

[stingers]

i just noticed you both are from North Carolina....

coincidence?

He's never even been to a tournament. I have no idea who the ****ing guy is. His opinions shouldn't be worth a damn.

 

[CountKaiser]

Wasn't this done to death? The argument of L-canceling?

Didn't it go something along the lines of it not really bringing more tech skill into the game? That it was always the best option, was simple muscle memory, and and served nothing more as a blockade to playing the game rather than actually being a contributive tech?

Several broomers will probably back me up on this. Either that, or just not get involved.

There should be an explanation as to why auto l-canceling is in the game, and not manual l-canceling.

 

[King Kai]

He's never even been to a tournament. I have no idea who the ****ing guy is. His opinions shouldn't be worth a damn.

He joined in 09. His opinions are worthless.


Yeah...

 

[The Sex Puma]

People are awesome.