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[stingers]

If there were arguments about L-Cancelling before (I'm assuming there were, I've never read them but I can't imagine it hasn't happened before), I don't know why people decided it was bad for the game.

I don't know how you could possibly find L-canceling (which has been in every Smash except for ****ty vBrawl) to be anything but game-expanding. L-canceling in Brawl+, while FrozenPopo called it a quick fix, would be nothing of the sort. You instantly. INSTANTLY. widen the learning curve. That means Brawl+ becomes more competitive, deeper, and for those who like an obvious gap between the good and bad players.. well, an obvious gap between good and bad players. This, and more, all through removing auto-canceling.

Summed it up pretty well.

 

[FrozenHobo]

He's never even been to a tournament. I have no idea who the ****ing guy is. His opinions shouldn't be worth a damn.

well, while i do feel that this is a community project and that everyone's opinions are equal, some ideas should at least be investigated before they're shot down. whether or not he thinks its a bad idea counts, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be looked at. if we all just blindly close ourselves off from other people's opinions then we can't reach an ideal final project that the community can at least agree to be a 'better game' than vBrawl.

 

[Arkaether]

I'm just sick of you complete and utter random noobs spewing nonsense about fighting games in general. You seriously do not know what depth means if you think that about l-canceling in Brawl+. I half didn't take you seriously; I don't know how you could possibly find L-canceling (which has been in every Smash except for ****ty vBrawl) to be anything but game-expanding. L-canceling in Brawl+, while FrozenPopo called it a quick fix, would be nothing of the sort. You instantly. INSTANTLY. widen the learning curve. That means Brawl+ becomes more competitive, deeper, and for those who like an obvious gap between the good and bad players.. well, an obvious gap between good and bad players. This, and more, all through removing auto-canceling.

But no, because you are a silly vBrawl nublet who has no experience pressing buttons fast. BTW, I stopped being respectful towards you when you completely ignored my post regarding your argument with GHNeko towards depth.

You instantly widen the learning curve artificially by introducing an easy-to-learn, simple technique that degrades into pure muscle memory in an extremely short time, resulting in no overall tech skill increase with the exact same results as auto-canceling. This does not aid competitiveness in any way, depth in any way, and only creates a gap between complete noobs and decent players. And if you can't wipe the floor with complete noobs normally, then l-canceling is the least of your problems.

I also love how you degrade into calling me a "silly vBrawl nublet" instead of raising intelligent points. You claim l-canceling helps, but you provide no points. You call me a nublet, but your only point is that I ignored your post since I already covered all your points in my responses to GHNeko.

Also, kinda funny how this "silly vBrawl nublet" who "knows nothing about fighting games" actually provides intelligent and insightful discussion. And funny how when I make a suggestion, it's actually taken into consideration.

He's never even been to a tournament. I have no idea who the ****ing guy is. His opinions shouldn't be worth a damn.

Awesome, I'm totally worthless and idiotic because I lack the resources and transportation to go to tournaments! Woo!

But seriously, what the hell's with you and drama, dude? This is something you'd expect out of little kids.

Wasn't this done to death? The argument of L-canceling?

Didn't it go something along the lines of it not really bringing more tech skill into the game? That it was always the best option, was simple muscle memory, and and served nothing more as a blockade to playing the game rather than actually being a contributive tech?

Pretty much, yes.

 

[stingers]

Awesome, I'm totally worthless and idiotic because I lack the resources and transportation to go to tournaments! Woo!

aren't you in Japan right now?

 

[FrozenHobo]

You instantly widen the learning curve artificially by introducing an easy-to-learn, simple technique that degrades into pure muscle memory in an extremely short time, resulting in no overall tech skill increase with the exact same results as auto-canceling. This does not aid competitiveness in any way, depth in any way, and only creates a gap between complete noobs and decent players.

not to nitpick, but wasn't this a complaint; that the game was a little too easy to pick up?


edit:

(watch this explode into another argument)

^^
called it.

 

[Arkaether]

aren't you in Japan right now?

Yes. Your point? Buying a plane ticket after over a year of planning is quite a bit different from somehow getting a car ride to someplace an hour away with nothing more than a few day's notice and no expendable income.

 

[Blank Mauser]

This debate is trivial. While L-canceling would give many trigger happy people something to do and would probably be a fun addition, it really only serves to widen the gap between players. Keeping players playing longer because they have to practice techskill could be considered depth to some people, but its hardly ideal. Keeping a player playing because there is variety, creativity, and overall a good deal of the human factor(Not the character or pre-set follow-ups) making a difference in high level play is what keeps a game interesting over years. That and hype.

Please keep the flaming of Arkaether down a little. Its deconstructive and irrelevant. Accusations like "vBrawl nublet" simply because Ark doesn't believe we need to add arbitrary inputs to expand the game is just inane.

If anything, we should be thinking of ways to actually play on the strengths Brawl+ already has over the other smash games in order to cement its place as a competitive experience. I believe Brawl+ has many of such strengths that are greatly undermined in all the incessant requests for more tech skill.

 

[stingers]

Historically, the government that listens to its people lasts the longest.

The people want something that clearly shows a division of skill.

Learned Behavior is the only way to accomplish something like that. Learned Behavior is another word for what we in the Smash Community call Tech Skill. Adding in L Cancelling would be a great way to add in Tech Skill.

 

[BananaTrooper]

I'm just sick of you complete and utter random noobs spewing nonsense about fighting games in general. You seriously do not know what depth means if you think that about l-canceling in Brawl+. I half didn't take you seriously; I don't know how you could possibly find L-canceling (which has been in every Smash except for ****ty vBrawl) to be anything but game-expanding. L-canceling in Brawl+, while FrozenPopo called it a quick fix, would be nothing of the sort. You instantly. INSTANTLY. widen the learning curve. That means Brawl+ becomes more competitive, deeper, and for those who like an obvious gap between the good and bad players.. well, an obvious gap between good and bad players. This, and more, all through removing auto-canceling.

But no, because you are a silly vBrawl nublet who has no experience pressing buttons fast. BTW, I stopped being respectful towards you when you completely ignored my post regarding your argument with GHNeko towards depth.

TL;DR - stop shooting down ideas to make Brawl+ more competitive because you like your games to be played with a Fisher Price controller. Take any popular competitive game and you will see that there are OBVIOUS ATs. Nothing of the sort exist in vBrawl or Brawl+.

 

[Deleted member]

You instantly widen the learning curve artificially by introducing an easy-to-learn, simple technique that degrades into pure muscle memory in an extremely short time, resulting in no overall tech skill increase with the exact same results as auto-canceling. This does not aid competitiveness in any way, depth in any way, and only creates a gap between complete noobs and decent players. And if you can't wipe the floor with complete noobs normally, then l-canceling is the least of your problems.

Okay - so. UGH my god you are so dense. Let me begin with your choice of words. artificial. EXPLAIN to me how modifying vBrawl in anyway is not considered artificial. Everything the Brawl+ team has done to the original game has been artificial! EVERYTHING. ****, what the hell would the antonym be? And how the hell would you possibly implement anything in that manner? Organically? Physically? This is a video game that we're modifying to make it more fun and more competitive. Any and every modification we make to the original game will be artificial, no matter ****ing what. That means that when people suggest things that make the game instantly require a bit of muscle memory (you seem to not like that..but that is what makes the world turn around.. hell, even pro skateboarders use muscle memory to do their tricks) But muscle memory is key! For if your hands "forget" to tech or l-cancel, then you have not mastered the tech.

L-canceling takes a while to learn and do all the time. You have yet to prove that l-canceling is detrimental to the game's competitiveness. As it stands now, there is nothing. NOTHING. that makes Brawl+ difficult to learn, and that is a distinct problem that needs to be fixed, QUICK or otherwise, you ****ing noob.

I also love how you degrade into calling me a "silly vBrawl nublet" instead of raising intelligent points. You claim l-canceling helps, but you provide no points. You call me a nublet, but your only point is that I ignored your post since I already covered all your points in my responses to GHNeko.

Also, kinda funny how this "silly vBrawl nublet" who "knows nothing about fighting games" actually provides intelligent and insightful discussion. And funny how when I make a suggestion, it's actually taken into consideration.

And then promptly thrown out again, I hope. Nothing you have posted has been a) justified, b) knowledgeable, or c) insightful.

And for the record, I don't give a **** if people before me couldn't argue past a couple vbrawl noobs to try and score some l-cancel goodness. I'll try on my own, thanks.

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmmm, in that case, why not come up with something that can be beneficial at some points, and not so beneficial at other points, and thus would require thought while using, instead of a "tech" that is always the best thing to do.

I'm all for learned behavior, but what you're suggesting is a habit.

 

[stingers]

Hmmm, in that case, why not come up with something that can be beneficial at some points, and not so beneficial at other points, and thus would require thought while using, instead of a "tech" that is always the best thing to do.

Coming up with ideas like that is always nice but it's not always easy to implement. Nintendo got lucky in Melee that Wavedashing was an AT much like that, but they clearly didn't plan for it to be that way. If you can think of an original technique like that, I'm sure it would be considered.

 

[FrozenHobo]

I'm all for learned behavior, but what you're suggesting is a habit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mK0XWzAwig

^^
shhhhh..... he's wavedashing.....


and delorted is making most of the points for me.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Historically, the government that listens to its people lasts the longest.

The people want something that clearly shows a division of skill.

Learned Behavior is the only way to accomplish something like that. Learned Behavior is another word for what we in the Smash Community call Tech Skill. Adding in L Cancelling would be a great way to add in Tech Skill.

Division of skill comes naturally and will obviously happen as the game evolves. Requiring unneeded button inputs is just begging for bad inputs to happen, when we could be developing and encouraging habits that come intuitively through smart play. Punishing for bad input is just an annoying and tedious way to hinder progress of the game on a tactical player-to-player level, and just adds to the barrier of player-to-game level.

Tech skill can come from being precise, being accurate, having good sense of control, but just adding in another way to mess up only serves to annoy people.

I think too many people take the few techs Brawl+ does have for granted. B reversals, RARing, jump canceled tosses, glidetosses, DACUsmash, DACUtilt, DACGrab, ledge cancels, pivoting, and not to mention character specific ATs. Why should we cater to such an area when people are barely willing to explore whats already there?

 

[Arkaether]

Okay - so. UGH my god you are so dense. Let me begin with your choice of words. artificial. EXPLAIN to me how modifying vBrawl in anyway is not considered artificial. Everything the Brawl+ team has done to the original game has been artificial! EVERYTHING. ****, what the hell would the antonym be? And how the hell would you possibly implement anything in that manner? Organically? Physically? This is a video game that we're modifying to make it more fun and more competitive. Any and every modification we make to the original game will be artificial, no matter ****ing what. That means that when people suggest things that make the game instantly require a bit of muscle memory (you seem to not like that..but that is what makes the world turn around.. hell, even pro skateboarders use muscle memory to do their tricks) But muscle memory is key! For if your hands "forget" to tech or l-cancel, then you have not mastered the tech.

I said "artificial depth". Please don't ignore words, it tends to change the point. There is quite a bit of difference between something which can be utilized in differing situations and extends the options readily available to a character for an increase in effectiveness, and training yourself to click a button every time you land during an aerial. Hint: the second one isn't really depth.

L-canceling takes a while to learn and do all the time. You have yet to prove that l-canceling is detrimental to the game's competitiveness. As it stands now, there is nothing. NOTHING. that makes Brawl+ difficult to learn, and that is a distinct problem that needs to be fixed, QUICK or otherwise, you ****ing noob.

Yet to prove? L-canceling isn't detrimental to the game's competitiveness. I never said it was. It merely contributes absolutely nothing towards it. It is used in every single situation in which you land during an aerial. "A while" to learn equated to approximately 30 minutes when I first picked up melee. Having to press a button for a situation in which you're guaranteed to get it and in which you will always do it is the exact same as having to press an extra button in order to move around. There is no situation in which you don't use it, making it the norm. It degrades into muscle memory, so all you end up is a game with auto-canceling in which people click extra buttons for no benefit.

Oh wait, you won't listen. Why? Because you're obviously too preoccupied with calling people noobs to realize that you're not actually making any real points.

And then promptly thrown out again, I hope. Nothing you have posted has been a) justified, b) knowledgeable, or c) insightful.

And for the record, I don't give a **** if people before me couldn't argue past a couple vbrawl noobs to try and score some l-cancel goodness. I'll try on my own, thanks.

Funny, you seem to be one of maybe two or three people who think that. I'm sure you're secretly far more intelligent than all of them and your opinion is thus far more correct, right?

 

[stingers]

@Blank Mauser: Refer to Delorted's post

"Tech skill can come from being precise, being accurate, having good sense of control, but just adding in another way to mess up only serves to annoy people."

None of that is Learned Behavior, it's all Innate. From the very first time we play we all know that we should hit with our attacks (being precise and being accurate is the same thing so...). "Having a good sense of control" isn't definable; that could mean many different things. I suppose you just mean spacing, which is also something that doesn't require much thought.

Adding in Manual L-Cancelling means the player needs to actively press more buttons in order to perform optimally, ie. Learned Behavior.

 

[Blank Mauser]

@Blank Mauser: Refer to Delorted's post

"Tech skill can come from being precise, being accurate, having good sense of control, but just adding in another way to mess up only serves to annoy people."

None of that is Learned Behavior, it's all Innate. From the very first time we play we all know that we should hit with our attacks (being precise and being accurate is the same thing so...). "Having a good sense of control" isn't definable; that could mean many different things. I suppose you just mean spacing, which is also something that doesn't require much thought.

Adding in Manual L-Cancelling means the player needs to actively press more buttons in order to perform optimally, ie. Learned Behavior.

Theres a difference between following instincts and actually doing what is best for the situation. That is the learned behavior. On the other hand, the only thing you learn from messing up an L-cancel is that...you should have L-canceled. Its learned behavior, but its a shallow and worthless habit to encourage.

 

[BananaTrooper]

"A while" to learn equated to approximately 30 minutes when I first picked up melee.

This is all I read.

This is everything anyone needs to read from you.

YOU LEARNED L-CANCEL IN 30 MINUTES????

I don't care what you've said till now. It was too long, too much of a bother to read. It's irrelevant. Point is -You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

STOP POSTING

 

[Arkaether]

This is all I read.

This is everything anyone needs to read from you.

I don't care what you've said till now. It was too long, too much of a bother to read. It's irrelevant. Point is -You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

STOP POSTING

Apparently someone can't deal with the fact that other people know how to play fighting games.

It's called "execution". You tend to learn it if you play fighters. I play a lot of fighters. See a trend here?

 

[stingers]

Theres a difference between following instincts and actually doing what is best for the situation. That is the learned behavior. On the other hand, the only thing you learn from messing up an L-cancel is that you should have...L-canceled. Its learned behavior, but its a shallow and worthless habit to encourage.

Anything that adds a Learning Curve cannot be called shallow and worthless...that's just your own opinion speaking.

Like I said earlier, if you can think of some advanced form of movement that "can be beneficial at some points, and not so beneficial at other points, and thus would require thought while using, instead of a "tech" that is always the best thing to do.", suggest it and I'm sure people will consider it.

Until then, adding in Manual L-Cancelling is nothing but a step in the right direction.

 

[Deleted member]

I said "artificial depth".

..not to nitpick, but no you didn't. Here's where you first referred to "artificial":

You instantly widen the learning curve artificially

The word depth is not present in that sentence whatsoever, so don't place a strawman on me when I didn't commit one.

Yet to prove? L-canceling isn't detrimental to the game's competitiveness. I never said it was. It merely contributes absolutely nothing towards it. It is used in every single situation in which you land during an aerial. "A while" to learn equated to approximately 30 minutes when I first picked up melee. Having to press a button for a situation in which you're guaranteed to get it and in which you will always do it is the exact same as having to press an extra button in order to move around. There is no situation in which you don't use it, making it the norm. It degrades into muscle memory, so all you end up is a game with auto-canceling in which people click extra buttons for no benefit.

So you learned to l-cancel within 30 minutes of first playing Melee? Sure; I buy that. I taught my girlfriend within 5 of her short hops once she pressed L. But does that mean she knows "how" to l-cancel? Of course not. She knows of the concept and how to apply it, but her fingers don't know how to do it 100% of the time as mine do. L-canceling requires practice, just like any game, sport, or hobby. There are rewards for practice - and in melee, that reward is faster and better gameplay.


I shouldn't have to explain this **** to you though. You have never been to a tournament, and while I am sorry for your lack of experience, you do not have a proper background to be challenging what I'm saying. I played melee competitively for many years and I still do, and what you're saying is 100% absolute balderdash.

L-canceling is a) easy to learn but hard to perfect - b) an easy way to widen the skill gap (which some people see as a bad thing?! You guys are bonkers) c) a legitimate use of technical skill.

 

[Shell]

DeLoRtEd1, you are misinterpreting Arkaether's use of "artificial." He's not arguing developer intent, and I don't think anyone has here in a very long time. Calm down. By artificial he meant something that doesn't have true depth -- I know that word is tossed around a lot, so for my purposes I'll define it to be a scenario with multiple decent options to use.

In the case of landing from an aerial, there is no depth, no scenario at all -- it's (almost, I think there's an exception for Peach) always in the interest of the player to go ahead and cancel the lag. And if you mess up, well, there's no punishment.

This is what he's referring to as artificial.

By comparison, wavedashing was not "artificial." That is, it was not always the correct thing to do. Additionally, performing one incorrectly often left you in a bad situation. Thus you not only had to perform the tech correctly (or suffer punishment) but you had to identify the proper times to use it. I'm not advocating wavedashing in Brawl+, but do you see the difference between the two that I'm trying to illustrate?

As it stands now, there is nothing. NOTHING. that makes Brawl+ difficult to learn, and that is a distinct problem that needs to be fixed, QUICK or otherwise, you ****ing noob.

I see this as a boon, not a problem. The game should be easy to learn. If we can add things that make it more difficult to master, but still easy to learn, I'm all for them. Manual L-canceling doesn't seem like one of those things, though.

 

[BananaTrooper]

Apparently someone can't deal with the fact that other people know how to play fighting games.

It's called "execution". You tend to learn it if you play fighters. I play a lot of fighters. See a trend here?

You HONESTLY think you can hit your L-cancels 100% consistently after practicing it for 30 minutes?



Prove it. I dare you.

Show me a match where you dont miss an l-cancel. SHOW ME.

I wanna see this prodigy in the rough.

EDIT: So I realized I'm not done with you yet.

Accept the fact that you are INFERIOR in experience, knowledge, and ability than the people arguing against you. I'll explain it slowly:

Just because you are able to land an L-cancel after practice at home playing against your mother DOES NOT MEAN (and get this, this is the important part) you can L-cancel.

yes?

You. cannot. L-cancel.

 

[stingers]

I've been playing Melee for 3 years and I still don't land every L Cancel D:

 

[shanus]

I see this as a boon, not a problem. The game should be easy to learn. If we can add things that make it more difficult to master, but still easy to learn, I'm all for them. Manual L-canceling doesn't seem like one of those things, though.

Shell generally always says what I think in a far more efficient manner.

I'll clarify learn as in the basic ropes, not metagame, etc.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Anything that adds a Learning Curve cannot be called shallow and worthless...that's just your own opinion speaking.

Like I said earlier, if you can think of some advanced form of movement that "can be beneficial at some points, and not so beneficial at other points, and thus would require thought while using, instead of a "tech" that is always the best thing to do.", suggest it and I'm sure people will consider it.

Until then, adding in Manual L-Cancelling is nothing but a step in the right direction.

This is a bit of an exaggeration on your part, and honestly what you've spoken is just your own opinion as well.

There is more then one side to Manual L-cancelling then just encouraging people to stay above the curve. Theres the beginner end which can't seem to grasp the concept and gives up, theres the midway which utilizes it but still occasionally messes it up mid-match which I'm sure is infuriating considering the punishment people can deal in B+, and then theres the highest level of play that never messes it up and in which Manual L-canceling makes little to no difference in the actual outcome of the match or the situations that occur.

None of these are goals worth aiming for. If people want tech skill then take the time to learn the few things that Brawl+ does have before saying there isn't enough. To this day I still don't think people are playing Brawl+ to its full potential. You can not complain Brawl+ has no tech skill because its an area thats largely unexplored as of now. I believe this to be true without a doubt.

 

[Deleted member]

Shell I totally get what you're saying - why NOT l cancel when there's no reason not to? Agreed, I get that. However, that doesn't mean it isn't any less of a skill to learn, and as such, it's not so much the actual l-canceling itself but the fact that if you don't l-cancel your opponent will. However, you guys seem to make out l-canceling as something that's easy to perfect. This is not some easy step. You can't just jack into the matrix and learn l-canceling like Neo or something. It takes time and practice. Adding depth, I don't care if it's "artificial" or not, for every modification to brawl+ will be indeed "artificial."

Blank, it's been about 1.5 years since Brawl was released, and every Brawl vid I watch is basically the same. There has not been a visible change to how the game is played.

 

[Arkaether]

Delorted:

a) You mean easy to learn and easy to perfect.
b) This is neither a good nor a bad thing.
c) Not really.

BananaTrooper:

I don't have a capture card. And I'm terribly sorry that you can't pick something up after 30 straight minutes of training muscle memory.

stingers:

And you say you're good at Melee? v:

 

[BananaTrooper]

Delorted:

a) You mean easy to learn and easy to perfect.
b) This is neither a good nor a bad thing.
c) Not really.

BananaTrooper:

I don't have a capture card. And I'm terribly sorry that you can't pick something up after 30 straight minutes of training muscle memory.

stingers:

And you say you're good at Melee? v:

My mind is shattered from the ignorance.

 

[Deleted member]

Ark, I'm positive BananaTrooper doesn't mean sitting against a computer l-canceling Link d-airs like we all did when we first practiced. We mean SHFFLing; we mean L-canceling in actual matches. You aren't gonna compete, I'm sorry.

Also, "not really" is not a legitimate argument.

 

[Arkaether]

My mind is shattered from the ignorance.

My mind is shattered from the stupidi-

Oh wait, that would make me one of those people who like to toss out insults without actually raising any legitimate points! Like you!

Delorted: I ain't that stupid, bro. I practiced it on jiggly dairs empty, on hit, on lightshield, on shield, on shifted shield, and all sorts of stupid **** you can imagine. Then I played a few friends using nothing but l-cancel. Bam, muscle memory ingrained. This is what we call having good execution.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Blank, it's been about 1.5 years since Brawl was released, and every Brawl vid I watch is basically the same. There has not been a visible change to how the game is played.

And thats my point. There are plenty of untouched techs within Brawl+ that nobody wishes to utilize, then they complain that it lacks tech skill. Brawl+ has only just begun, and I feel that in a faster metagame where punishment and spacing make that much more a difference, these techs will be taken advantage of. Its just not happening yet because people are looking in the wrong places, such as adding arbitrary button inputs.

 

[stingers]

This is a bit of an exaggeration on your part, and honestly what you've spoken is just your own opinion as well.

Okay, that's true. That's not the issue however.

When you're talking about the 3 major skill gaps, you completely ignored the concept of inter-gap play. When a beginner plays an intermediate and sees how much faster the intermediate is playing, if he had any real desire to learn in the first place then he would want to learn how to L Cancel. Something like that, giving the player incentive to practice (which can be done on their own free time and doesn't require another player) is an important step for a competitive game to have because it encourages competition. The reason people say that Melee is a better competitive game then Brawl is because it has Advanced Techniques that must be adequately practiced and mastered before you can play at a higher level.

Similarly, Brawl and Brawl+ have no such tactics outside of ones like Glide Tossing and DACUS which are wholly situational. There is no problem at all with situational tactics like this at all. In fact, Situational Tactics are far more "deep" then the always beneficial tactics like L Cancelling are. However, that is not the point. The point of tactics like L Cancelling is to add another level of player skill into the game that must be mastered before you can advance onto the expert things like proper usage of DACUS and glide tossing.

What you said about Brawl+ having unexplored tech skill is partly true and partly false. In reality, there is no room for more potential Tech Skill in Brawl+ when taken at face value, ie. more button presses in order to achieve a better result. There is a huge potential for things like Combos, but when it comes down to it, combos are on the same layer of player skill as an L Cancel is. It's muscle memory that is developed over time in order to achieve the best possible result. Similar to how there is no reason NOT to L Cancel, if Character X's Fair linked to their Ftilt which linked to their Fsmash at 80% which results in a kill on every character in the game, what reason would there be to not do that?

Things like this are inherent in any fighter and the reason vBrawl is so widely believed to be anti-competitive (besides random factors like tripping) is that all the staples of Advanced Play were removed. Adding them back into Brawl+ is something that you should be striving to do, not shun away.

And you say you're good at Melee? v:

Wow.

 

[CountKaiser]

This has been done to death. Manual L-Canceling isn't coming back.

Suggest something else.

 

[Deleted member]

K I give up on Ark. Seriously I'm not gonna be trolled

Blank, learning to control the game more precisely will make you better at the game, without a doubt. That's not being debated (I hope.) However, some of us are looking for tangible ways to really grab hold of the game and see some skill being observed. Hopefully that's not too much ask, and I think at the very least we should have it in one nightly to try it out. Being graceful in Brawl+ will not amount to a visible change in gameplay like we saw in Melee as it evolved. I think what we'll see in Brawl+ if all we do is balance fixes (I say we but I've done nothing but give feedback, I hope that's okay) is simply very graceful movement and well placed combos. And while there's nothing wrong with that (in fact, that already sounds like a great game) I think it could be so much more potential to be had here. We have free reign, basically.

CountKaiser post constructively or not at all; it's not like we're wasting bandwidth.

edit: I'm gonna go to bed..I wanna clap for that great post of yours stingers.

edit 2: Shanus u could basically take this post as a response to yours.

 

[Arkaether]

Wow.

Wow? You state that L-Canceling is a required tech skill for beginners to become intermediates that is essential to high level play.

Then you say you can't do it reliably.

The rest, I leave to you yourself to figure out.

v:

 

[shanus]

Shell I totally get what you're saying - why NOT l cancel when there's no reason not to? Agreed, I get that. However, that doesn't mean it isn't any less of a skill to learn, and as such, it's not so much the actual l-canceling itself but the fact that if you don't l-cancel your opponent will. However, you guys seem to make out l-canceling as something that's easy to perfect. This is not some easy step. You can't just jack into the matrix and learn l-canceling like Neo or something. It takes time and practice. Adding depth, I don't care if it's "artificial" or not, for every modification to brawl+ will be indeed "artificial."

Blank, it's been about 1.5 years since Brawl was released, and every Brawl vid I watch is basically the same. There has not been a visible change to how the game is played.

L-cancelling won't change how Brawl+ is played in 1.5 years either. Everyone will do it from day 1. Everyone will do it on day 365.

People love the idea of adding techskill to the game. Techskill doesn't just have to mean more button presses people, it can also mean more precision. Higher speed, less window = more chance of error, more precision.

 

[stingers]

Then you say you can't do it reliably.

I never said that.

 

[Shell]

I think the situational techs like DACUS and glide tossing are exactly what Brawl+ needs more of. They...

1) Require some tech skill. (This could be a bit harder, but you get the idea)

2) Can get you punished for performing them incorrectly

3) Are situational. This emphasizes difficulty to master and use at the appropriate time rather than being a mandatory, mindless hurtle for everyone to overcome.


Notice that Manual L-canceling is the opposite for all of those criteria...

Edit: Good points by shanus.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Okay, that's true. That's not the issue however.

When you're talking about the 3 major skill gaps, you completely ignored the concept of inter-gap play. When a beginner plays an intermediate and sees how much faster the intermediate is playing, if he had any real desire to learn in the first place then he would want to learn how to L Cancel. Something like that, giving the player incentive to practice (which can be done on their own free time and doesn't require another player) is an important step for a competitive game to have because it encourages competition. The reason people say that Melee is a better competitive game then Brawl is because it has Advanced Techniques that must be adequately practiced and mastered before you can play at a higher level.

Similarly, Brawl and Brawl+ have no such tactics outside of minor ones like Glide Tossing and DACUS which are wholly situational. There is no problem at all with situational tactics like this at all. In fact, Situational Tactics are far more "deep" then the always beneficial tactics like L Cancelling are. However, that is not the point. The point of tactics like L Cancelling is to add another level of player skill into the game that must be mastered before you can advance onto the expert things like proper usage of DACUS and glide tossing.

What you said about Brawl+ having unexplored tech skill is partly true and partly false. In reality, there is no room for more potential Tech Skill in Brawl+ when taken at face value, ie. more button presses in order to achieve a better result. There is a huge potential for things like Combos, but when it comes down to it, combos are on the same layer of player skill as an L Cancel is. It's muscle memory that is developed over time in order to achieve the best possible result. Similar to how there is no reason NOT to L Cancel, if Character X's Fair linked to their Ftilt which linked to their Fsmash at 80% which resulted in a kill on every character in the game, what reason would there be to not do that?

Things like this are inherent in any fighter and the reason vBrawl is so widely believed to be anti-competitive (besides random factors like tripping) is that all the staples of Advanced Play were removed. Adding them back into Brawl+ is something that you should be striving to do, not shun.


Wow.

Honestly I believe these philosophies of interaction between skill levels is what keeps us disagreeing here. You believe encouraging competition by adding another step in the progress from beginner to real play is healthy for the game. I have seen in my own eyes and believe that this is not always the case. While adding a filtering system for people who don't want to take the time to learn, you negate them from ever truely getting a grasp of the game as a whole, and leave them with just that tedious experience of never really getting down L-canceling. Then of course in a real match, you have people who see the game as a whole and feel they are experienced, know a few things, but their execution is only slightly off-par because of this barrier.

Why add this at all? To ensure a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment through taking the time to fully learn a game? Okay well thats actually all well and good, but how about the other end of the spectrum and also the long-term effects of this? Its not going to make a bit of difference in high level play, and while we don't encourage the lack of staple tactics we definitely don't want to discourage the immersion into the metagame period when this won't change high level play a bit.

I also do believe there is room for potential expansion of tech skill in Brawl+. Brawl+ makes movement and precision more important, and while it didn't necessarily add them, it definitely encourages more use and makes a ton of AT's more viable in competitive play.