Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[BananaTrooper]

You can use chlorine johns when you swim underwater (for the most part, mostly underwater) like 6 hrs a day :/

you must look like a prune

 

[polyopulis]

MLC makes the game hard to pick up and learn. There is no such thing as mastery of
MLC, either you can do it 100% or you cannot. On a tournament level, you must be able to MLC 100% of the time with some characters.
In my opinion, a game should be easy to learn and difficult to master. Making a game hard to learn discourages people from trying to master it. An assumption that some people are making is that the decision to play the game seriously is not made when a new player first glances at the game and is rarely made when they see pros play for the first time without touching the game themselves. The decision to play the game seriously is not made when the player starts playing and plays through 1P modes. The decision to play the game seriously most of the time is made when after being introduced to the pro scene, the player decides to try to play competitively themselves. If the game is too difficult to learn at that point, they are more likely to decide against learning to play; if the game is easy, they will probably try to learn.
Techskill should come in the form of situational techniques that are difficult to perform and aren't necessary except in high level tournament play. Techs like drillshining.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

you must look like a prune

My fingers, yeah.

Alright, well, sorry for the post. If i get an infraction, I suppose that I deserve it.

For the last time, good night, everyone.

 

[slikvik]

L-cancel is an arbitrary tech barrier at low level play. It's not needed in brawl+ nor would it even matter at high level play

 

[XSilvenX]

LMAO!!!! this was entertaining as hell. I wonder if the original developers had this argument when it came to the idea of L canceling in or out... Funny stuff. It was fun to see Arkaether get pwned multiple times too

Just so I don't get labeled as a vBrawl nub...As far as "Melee credibility" goes... I was there when Mew2king was a scrub, Wes destroyed most EC tournaments, wavedashing was "hard", Marth was undoubtedly the best character in the game and when Ken won his first tournament even..This is a fairly new account so ignore the date but I've actually been playing Smash competitively before everyone here. I have a 2003 account that I didn't really like so I made a few other accounts. This is the latest one obviously.

With that said there's good reason for L canceling NOT being in the game. It's a given that it adds more tech skill, that much we know but other than that it really doesn't make that much of a difference. After a certain point you simply DON'T miss L cancels anymore so all it will do is separate the SUPER n00bs from the general competitive community because for the most part everyone in the community will have gotten it down already. It never was and never will be a problem for competent players to L-cancel so this competitive tech skill "barrier" some of you guys are talking about won't even exist in tournaments. When it comes to that one technique pretty much everyone will be on the same level.

Also, forcing people who's first Smash game is vBrawl to learn L-canceling is sort of messed up and just works harder to deter people from joining the Brawl+ community. We all know vBrawl/Brawl+ is easier than Melee..there's not much we can do about that but I don't see how forcing muscle memory down people's throats via L-canceling will help the game. There were many reasons why Melee took so much tech skill, L canceling was one of them but it wasn't everything. The sheer pace of Melee, along with the dexterity required to do fast tilts, harder recoveries, characters dying faster made it a very tough game to be good at. I've read a lot of the posts from delorted and the likes but the fact of the matter is, when it comes to that technique you have to realize that you guys are biased because you played Melee and you're accustomed to it. For the rest of the Brawl community (which is all that matters right now since Brawl+ is in addition to BRAWL and NOT MELEE) it will mean getting L-canceling into your muscle memory which takes a good while..if you didn't play Melee you'd be pretty much f*cked.

It simply isn't fair for the vBrawl people who are converting to Brawl+. This project is focused on making Brawl+ a BETTER game by altering the failures of the original game. Sure, we've borrowed a lot of concepts and ideas from Melee but they were for good reason and actually affected gameplay. L canceling as a minor tech skill barrier just doesn't sound like a good idea to me especially since it won't change much, after it's in your muscle memory all you've changed is the amount of inputs going through the controller

L-cancel is an arbitrary tech barrier at low level play. It's not needed in brawl+ nor would it even matter at high level play

AH SNAP that's why this is mah dude!!! He basically said what I said in like 2 sentences. I'm so glad you, Hylian and NL is in the BR btw

 

[JCaesar]

What a stupid argument.

Manual L-canceling clearly adds tech skill. It's an extra button press that requires specific timing.

Manual L-canceling clearly does NOT add depth. There is no option, you must do it every single time.

In the end, it's an arbitrary skill-gap increaser, but since one of Brawl+'s goals is to be easy to pick-up, it will not be included.

/argument

 

[kupo15]

perhaps removing auto L-canceling and increasing the number of frames to activate it manually? it adds slight technical skill... not much, but some.

i agree adding in a natural-feeling manual l-cancelling would be amazing.

Agreed. L canceling would be awesome to have. The point is to bring technique and a better learning curve. Too bad it has been decided that brawl+ doesn't like technique game play

ark, please shut up

melee nostalgia forever

Not just melee, 64

 

[timothyung]

If you love your controllers more than a tech skill that doesn't add depth, don't use manual L-cancel

 

[PosthumusES]

ehhh I don't think tech skills should be universal to add more depth to this game, but rather a character specific tech skills add more "depth". I'm going to try to give examples, but don't flame me, because these are on my head at the moment. Maybe for Dacus, we can have Reverse Dacus. It doesn't seem useful at first, but think about it, this can be use to dodge attacks or add mindgames, which I think can be very useful. Or like how Marth has double fair, maybe we can give triple fair ( I know it sound really unrealistic and maybe unbalance, but I'm just tossing ideas).

I rather have more specific character tech skills rather than universal, because requiring players to learn something in order to play is a barrier, and discourage them from playing. But a character tech skills won't create a barrier, because it their choices to add it to their characters gameplay or not.

 

[shanus]

This is just me being curious, not taking sides for the moment

How many people that oppose L-cancel in brawl+ can L-cancel with reasonable proficiency in melee?

For some reason I'm getting the sense that most who oppose it, can't do it. I might be wrong, so please post to the contrary.

Many of us in the WBR were huge melee players and still are. I think I still have a very old falco combo vid from melee still on youtube (its just meh though given how old it was).

L-cancelling isn't hard, so don't even try and call people out on it. I would rarely, if ever, miss an L-cancel, especially at tournaments where I'm much more focused than in friendlies.

Given how much your hyping it up, do you find L-cancelling hard? I know I was trying to l cancel in brawl for probably at least half a year due to the reflex nature of it every time I SHFFL'd. Then when I installed B+, (the L cancel habit was broken at that point), the reflex came back again.

So yeah, in conclusion, I've probably played more melee than you lol (as would Jcz, slik, TheCape, and more of us)

 

[VietGeek]

The real problem with manual L-canceling really lies within the game mechanics though.

Namely auto-canceling. Some characters have autocanceled aerials that if timed right will not have any lag (Ganondorf notably) or if land midway have no lag (Meta Knight...<_<).

An argument done a while ago was that why should one person be able to pick up MK and literally NEVER L-cancel (save a FF'd nair...lol), but say you picked up Marth (obv these two are so alike mirite borked tierz), and you have to L-cancel everything.

That's not really "fair" persay, since Meta Knight is already a superior character to Marth. From a design perspective, it's also kinda stupid.

"Hey, we should add this tech to reduce aerial lag that requires you to push a button 7 frames around the time you land with that aerial. Oh, but we'll add an exception to a few 'key' characters."

wat.

Secondly, we've had ALC since forever. Most of the B+ fanbase aren't exactly Melee veterans. Unfortunately, there are times some of us want to try things, but can't because, well, we have to please the fans you know? I'd assume almost everyone except a key few prefer ALC over L-canceling.

From a third-person-PoV, it would be best to side with the majority than cater to a select few. Especially in a project that doesn't exactly have an excellent stigma surrounding it and a niche fanbase at most.

Random: Stall-then-falls were probably the only reason I switched to auto L-canceling. There's some whackass timing on those things lol.

 

[kupo15]

Yea, I realize I am behind on posts but I don't have the time (literally) which is why I am breaking it up into chunks

Requiring unneeded button inputs is just begging for bad inputs to happen, when we could be developing and encouraging habits that come intuitively through smart play. Punishing for bad input is just an annoying and tedious way to hinder progress of the game on a tactical player-to-player level, and just adds to the barrier of player-to-game level.

Brawl+ took all the rewards from the melee tech skills and removed the skill needed to get that reward. Lets take off the training wheels here and not act like an overprotective parent by saying things like "oh, well if we do this, little johnny here might have a hard time so we shouldn't add it." That is what I got when yo usaid "is just begging for bad inputs to happen..." Who cares if that happens? That obviously means that they need more practice which is a good thing. Lets not resort back to Sakurai's logic by making it easy anyone can win.

In the case of landing from an aerial, there is no depth, no scenario at all -- it's (almost, I think there's an exception for Peach) always in the interest of the player to go ahead and cancel the lag. And if you mess up, well, there's no punishment.

Can we please shut up about the whole depth thing? A technique does not need "depth" for it to add to competiteness. As I stated a while back, if you only limit your techs to things that have "real depth" then you will have a hard time finding things to add and still have a shallow easy game. Oh wait, we already have that. If you want to "heighten" the sense of l canceling, do one better than melee and add a punishment window for missed l cancels. I've heard that you could button mash l cancels in melee but tbh, I'm not really sure.

The thing is, EVERY competitive game out there has at least one scenario where there is only one correct move to make like l canceling

 

[Revven]

I've heard that you could button mash l cancels in melee but tbh, I'm not really sure.

You can, I've done it before. You can keep mashing L when you know you're about to land near the ground and it will eventually register (obviously) if you hit the timing for it during the couple of times you pressed L. It's kind of what makes it easy... because you can just mash L, the timing isn't strict enough is the problem with it.. I think in Melee the window is always open to a certain point and as long as you hit L within that open window you're good, which is why mashing L can be gotten away with. (Not that I do it, I've just done it once or twice before in a heated situation).

Of COURSE we could fine tune that IF everyone wanted MLC (which not everyone does). I'd be fine if we did Magus canceling (M-canceling) that Shell brought up again simply because it adds a risk/reward sorta thing and it isn't forced onto everyone and no character will have an inherent advantage with it like they would with MLC (example: MK would hardly ever need to MLC but someone like Ganondorf DOES need to MLC every move, it's quite unfair with a game full of autocanceling moves).

PLUS, we wouldn't have to change any of our current lag changes for characters that have lower lag than most (i.e Captain Falcon being at 40% lag instead of 50%). So we already have M-canceling half way done.

 

[slikvik]

Actually that's not true. If you mess up the timing, there's a certain amount of time where it won't register if you press L again. I can't remember the exact frames though

 

[SketchHurricane]

Let me first say that I'm wholehartedly surprised that this argument is active again. I thought we wrapped this up ages ago...

Take L-cancel away from Melee and what do you have? The same fast paced and intense fighter with one less button click. As soon as your muscle memory abandons the L-cancel reflex, you are playing the exact same game. Literally nothing has changed at the intermediate to pro level. So now tell me, why is L-canceling in that game?

The only real effect it has is external to the game - to make the playing experience tactfully enjoyable by filling gaps in execution with a button press. No one here can deny that melee just "feels" better, and this is partially because your hands are more active and engaged. Let be serious here people. Forget all the empty points. People want L-cancel because it just feels good, and they want to know they are better than someone else who can't do it as well as them. They want that tactical rhythm that Melee had, and every other reason is really just a justification to all this, as far as I can see.

That's just my opinion.

 

[Sudai]

A few people, including myself, thought M-cancel to be a great idea. However, most also agree that we should finish the balancing of the game itself before adding a new, universal, potentially balance endangering tool.

That's something I simply don't understand. I see it stated over and over...but...you're saying that the game building process should be:

Balance > Add Techs > Re-balance

That's a complete waste. If the desire to add any new techs in is there, it should be done pre-balancing that way you don't have to balance things twice. Alternatively, balancing the game then adding techs that wouldn't take away from the game's balance too drastically is just a limitation. If you can't add a tech because it'll break the balance of the game too much, but it was a really cool tech, wouldn't you be mad at yourself for trying to balance the game first instead of altering the game engine first?

I'm going to bed, but I'll end by posting this here.

I trust you all remember the proposed M-canceling? Basically, you take normal L-canceling, but increase the risk and the reward, and add an element of depth to it. All lag is set to 50%. Successfully M-canceling reduces _all_ lag on an attack, but fouling up the AT produces more lag than normal. Additionally, performing the tech comes at the cost of ~1/3 of your shield.

Do you all see how this is different than L-canceling, and how it more closely falls under the three qualities I mentioned? It still requires the same technical skill, but now it properly punishes you for failing. Additionally, the shield cost forces you to actually consider, if only for half of a second, whether or not you will use it. I'm not saying the idea is perfect and needs to be implemented right now, but it's got the focus on depth I'm trying to impress upon everyone.

Disclaimer: I know M-canceling is just an idea and it hasn't been fleshed out, but it's something I feel like discussing right now. ;p

As for the M-cancels, 1/3rd shield reduction is silly. Would M-canceling 4* times break your shield? Even with the shield damage, unless you can go into a broken shield state M-Canceling will be the best option 90%** of the time. On the offense your shield won't matter much once you're actually within their range (or if you out-range them, it won't matter at all) and on the defense, using a gtfo aerial puts your back on the offensive, unless you miss, in which case you're screwed anyway. It's basically just S-canceling, but if you mess up you get extra lag.

Now, that's why I find the stipulations to the tech silly. If you actually want to go through with trying out M-canceling, lets start with some more feasible numbers. 0% lag would be ********. Multi-hit aerial against a shield or a well timed single hit aerial, M-cancel, free grab. 0% lag is -not- the number to use. There's a lot of moves that provide enough shield stun to -almost- get a grab off, but it's not quite garunteed. Adding M-Canceling with any significant amount of lag reduction and leaving Auto-L-Cancels is just asking to have to retweak a **** ton of moves.*** As for the lag added, might as well just make it 300% lag since it won't be messed up at the higher echelons of play. Just a worse version of L-canceling, basically.


*4 instead of 3 because I'm assuming you can't aerial 3 times before a bit of your shield regenerates.
**Random estimate.
***Back to the "Change game mechanics before balancing the game" thing I mentioned earlier?

 

[FrozenHobo]

Let me first say that I'm wholehartedly surprised that this argument is active again. I thought we wrapped this up ages ago...

Take L-cancel away from Melee and what do you have? The same fast paced and intense fighter with one less button click. As soon as your muscle memory abandons the L-cancel reflex, you are playing the exact same game. Literally nothing has changed at the intermediate to pro level. So now tell me, why is L-canceling in that game?

The only real effect it has is external to the game - to make the playing experience tactfully enjoyable by filling gaps in execution with a button press. No one here can deny that melee just "feels" better, and this is partially because your hands are more active and engaged. Let be serious here people. Forget all the empty points. People want L-cancel because it just feels good, and they want to know they are better than someone else who can't do it as well as them. They want that tactical rhythm that Melee had, and every other reason is really just a justification to all this, as far as I can see.

That's just my opinion.

so.... you're saying you don't like the idea of a clear distinction in skill level. am i understanding that right? i mean, you say people want l-canceling because it feels good (which is debatable) and because they "want to know they are better then someone else who can't do it as well as them." just clarifying, but wouldn't that be considered a distinction in skill level?

furthermore, whats the point of having a game where someone who picks the game up today can have the same tech skill as someone who has been playing since the beginning? shouldn't there be some learning curve?

your argument asks what the point of having it in is if at higher levels of play everyone can do it automatically. the answer is to actually establish a higher level of play.

 

[Plum]

I would be all in favor of adding in AT's that don't instantly alienate new players from entering the scene. Something like Moonwalking which isn't needed to play a character like Falcon at a top level, but can be applied to enhance his options would be amazing for Brawl+. I think the character specific route is the right way to go, and give more characters perks about them such as Sheik and Luigi's crawldashing or Squirtle's shellshifting.

 

[slikvik]

We should require that everyone presses the shield button 3 times to airdodge. It would make the game deeper because you're pressing more buttons

 

[FrozenHobo]

We should require that everyone presses the shield button 3 times to airdodge. It would make the game deeper because you're pressing more buttons

ya see, now you're just being an *** hole.

 

[GHNeko]

ya see, now you're just being an *** hole.

He did bring up a point though. :V

 

[FrozenHobo]

He did bring up a point though. :V

but its the way he brought it up.

and he's not really bringing up the point, he's just restating what someone else had already complained about. in all honesty does an extra button press really make the game worse? it forces you to pay attention to what your doing and creates a distinguishable barrier between veteran players and new players. no, new players don't need to constanly l-cancel to play the game, but the veteran players understand that it helps to leave them open for less time. an extra button press to distinguish smart players from yet ignorant players can't hurt the game in the long run. yes, at the highest level everyone should l-cancel, but the fact is not everyone is at the highest level of play. why should we reward the people who have no idea what they're doing by not letting them stay open longer for attacks than people who do?

 

[timothyung]

lol at your signature, Neko.
As said before, one of Brawl+'s principle is to create a game that's easy to pick up. MLC makes it harder to pick up, so no MLC
And if you don't use the term "l-cancel", it's just that the lag from aerials are sped up. Just like any other frame speed mods. MLC is like if you hit a shield button during Mario's dtilt, the cooldown is sped up. ALC is that the cooldown is always sped up. Why do we have to hit a button to decrease the lag?

 

[FrozenHobo]

but its not just about making a game thats easy to pick up, its about making a game thats more competitive. making every player have the same tech skill isn't competitive.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

uh yea about yoshi..
he's pretty good. just needs his out of shield options (jump/upsmash/etc) and more knockback on down b. other than that I think if you buffed something on him it'd be overpowered. maybe make fair come out faster but if its too fast its too good.

edit: just checked falcons stuff

I think yoshi should also have to L cancel but make it so that ONLY yoshi has to

 

[timothyung]

but its not just about making a game thats easy to pick up, its about making a game thats more competitive. making every player have the same tech skill isn't competitive.

So we should make that if you hit a button during a move, it's winddown is sped up?
Brawl already has quite a lot of tech skills if you didn't notice, shorthop, SHFF, teching, DI, SDI, angled tilts, ledgehop, Usmash/UpB OoS, auto-canceling, etc. And in Brawl+, dash dancing, dash canceling. These are all skills that may not be the best option in every circumference, but l-canceling is always something you want to do.

 

[Revven]

I think yoshi should also have to L cancel but make it so that ONLY yoshi has to

Skip... you don't have to keep bringing up those things you want for Yoshi because I already told you that Down B KOing earlier it already in the WBR test set, so we're testing it out already! >_<

 

[SketchHurricane]

so.... you're saying you don't like the idea of a clear distinction in skill level. am i understanding that right? i mean, you say people want l-canceling because it feels good (which is debatable) and because they "want to know they are better then someone else who can't do it as well as them." just clarifying, but wouldn't that be considered a distinction in skill level?

Yes it would, and no I'm not knocking that (It only appears that way since I'm favoring one side of this argument). Distinction in skill level is not a bad thing in itself, it's just another measure of the game. And yes, I'm saying that this is what people want when they are asking for L-canceling. The reason I'm against L-cancel is because I believe it is not a favorable way to create that skill gap.

furthermore, whats the point of having a game where someone who picks the game up today can have the same tech skill as someone who has been playing since the beginning? shouldn't there be some learning curve?

Well, there would be a point to that - an accessible, non-competitive game. And we all know that's what Brawl was intended to be. But the point is that, in a situation where a veteran is able to demolish a newb, the technical barriers are only secondary to the mental barriers that enable this. In the ideal situation (the one we are trying to create, mind you) the veteran should be able to demolish the newb because he knows vastly more about the game, not because he can execute better. That's not to say execution isn't important, it's to say that execution should be secondary. L-cancel is secondary and actually does little to help the vet demolish the newb, and it does nothing to help the vet demolish another vet.

L-cancel or not, the vet still demolishes the newb, so why is L-cancel there?

If Daigo, a player hailed for his execution, was able to pick up smash and master it's hardest ATs, he should still get his *** handed to him by Smash's top players, because we should know vastly more about the game than him regardless of his technical skill. However, a lot of intermediate non-pros that know vastly more about smash would probably get beat by an early Daigo simply because he's just that good at execution. In the midst of all this, guess what? L-cancel is so low on the technical totem that it would almost literally make no difference in any above situation. You could take it out of the equation completely and the results would be the same. L-cancel is a joke in comparison to the advanced technical barriers that enable Daigo to beat someone that knows more than him about the game.

your argument asks what the point of having it in is if at higher levels of play everyone can do it automatically. the answer is to actually establish a higher level of play.

I would argue that L-cancel establishes a low level of play, not a hight one. With L-cancel, you're asking players to deal with a technique that does absolutely nothing for their game at the high level.

 

[thesage]

I like the idea of Magus cancel working together with the auto l-cancel. I also liked the djc code that lets you double jump after djc...

 

[FrozenHobo]

So we should make that if you hit a button during a move, it's winddown is sped up?
Brawl already has quite a lot of tech skills if you didn't notice, shorthop, SHFF, teching, DI, SDI, angled tilts, ledgehop, Usmash/UpB OoS, auto-canceling, etc. And in Brawl+, dash dancing, dash canceling. These are all skills that may not be the best option in every circumference, but l-canceling is always something you want to do.

1) it speeds up landing lag, not every move. get it straight.

2) and yet despite all of those ATs, B+ is still considered to be a more shallow game than vBrawl.

3) you want to do l-canceling in every situation, but, like in melee, if you just want to play the game you don't NEED to always l-cancel. its a skill you learn, but you can still play the game without it.


edit: i'll get to you in a sec sketch.

 

[GHNeko]

2) and yet despite all of those ATs, B+ is still considered to be a more shallow game than vBrawl.

wat

10wats


Who says this?

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

uh yea about yoshi..
he's pretty good. just needs his out of shield options (jump/upsmash/etc) and more knockback on down b. other than that I think if you buffed something on him it'd be overpowered. maybe make fair come out faster but if its too fast its too good.

edit: just checked falcons stuff

I think yoshi should also have to L cancel but make it so that ONLY yoshi has to

 

[FrozenHobo]

wat

10wats


Who says this?

most people feel that B+ is easier to play and no where near as DEEP as vBrawl. yes, vbrawl is MK and snake, but B+ is till considered to be less complex.


sketch:

Yes it would, and no I'm not knocking that (It only appears that way since I'm favoring one side of this argument). Distinction in skill level is not a bad thing in itself, it's just another measure of the game. And yes, I'm saying that this is what people want when they are asking for L-canceling. The reason I'm against L-cancel is because I believe it is not a favorable way to create that skill gap.

thats fair. you can have your opinions.

Well, there would be a point to that - an accessible, non-competitive game. And we all know that's what Brawl was intended to be. But the point is that, in a situation where a veteran is able to demolish a newb, the technical barriers are only secondary to the mental barriers that enable this. In the ideal situation (the one we are trying to create, mind you) the veteran should be able to demolish the newb because he knows vastly more about the game, not because he can execute better. That's not to say execution isn't important, it's to say that execution should be secondary. L-cancel is secondary and actually does little to help the vet demolish the newb, and it does nothing to help the vet demolish another vet.

yes, the vet should demolish eh newb, but with the ease of combing in B+ the newb can still put up a fight. there currently is no way to punish poor tech skills besides chasing the opponent, while there is NO way to rewarding good tech skills.

L-cancel or not, the vet still demolishes the newb, so why is L-cancel there?

so the newb has the reason and ability to speed themselves up through practice as opposed to the game just giving it to them.

If Daigo, a player hailed for his execution, was able to pick up smash and master it's hardest ATs, he should still get his *** handed to him by Smash's top players, because we should know vastly more about the game than him regardless of his technical skill. However, a lot of intermediate non-pros that know vastly more about smash would probably get beat by an early Daigo simply because he's just that good at execution. In the midst of all this, guess what? L-cancel is so low on the technical totem that it would almost literally make no difference in any above situation. You could take it out of the equation completely and the results would be the same. L-cancel is a joke in comparison to the advanced technical barriers that enable Daigo to beat someone that knows more than him about the game.

but thats just it, in melee and SSB64 l-canceling distinguished poor players from mediocre players. taking out l-canceling evens the playing field in a competitive game and leaves you with a bland product. you could take it out of the equation but then what made the pro player faster and the newb player slower goes away.

I would argue that L-cancel establishes a low level of play, not a hight one. With L-cancel, you're asking players to deal with a technique that does absolutely nothing for their game at the high level.

it creates different classes of player: those that recover fast and those that recover slow. you can suck but know how to l-cancel and still lose, and you can be a great players and not l-cancel and still beat people worse than you. its not a game breaking mechanic, but it separates the players' skill levels more so if you're just picking up the game and have no idea what l-canceling is you won't be on the same level of play as someone who does and uses it constantly.

 

[CloneHat]

I personally don't like the idea of l cancel, m cancel, or whatever cancel because they're all the same, just in varying degrees of risk.

I understand you want to widen the gap between veteran and new players, but I don't think it should be accomplished with something you just have to memorize until it becomes a muscle reflex. That isn't depth really, that's just showing you've played the game a few days and now can unconsciously perform an important button press that others can't yet. It just alienates new players, giving them a hurdle they must jump, so they can basically end up back where they started, just one subconscious button press higher in the chain.

Did anyone read Plum's post talking about moonwalking? That's what I think of depth. It should be putting AT's to use in certain situations, not always necessary, but deepening your options. What you people are talking about is just repetitive practice of buttons you do until you simply forget you are doing it in the first place. It's like saying, "To jump, you should have to press X, Y, and L at the same time."

Everyone would adapt, but all it does is hamper people who haven't made it muscle memory.

 

[timothyung]

Landing lag=Ending lag of moves. In Brawl+, some moves' ending lag are sped up for better usage. The landing lag are sped up for the same reason. Why do we have to hit a button to reduce the lag only for landing lags? If you think L-cancel is good, why not make that every move with faster ending lag in Brawl+ requires a button hit in order to speed up the ending lag?

 

[FrozenHobo]

Landing lag=Ending lag of moves. In Brawl+, some moves' ending lag are sped up for better usage. The landing lag are sped up for the same reason. Why do we have to hit a button to reduce the lag only for landing lags? If you think L-cancel is good, why not make that every move with faster ending lag in Brawl+ requires a button hit in order to speed up the ending lag?

because thats not l-canceling. you seem to be confused as to what l-canceling is, "reducing the length of recovery animations after landing on the ground while performing an aerial attack."

straight from the wiki. it has nothing to do with the ending lag of moves. know what you're arguing about.

 

[timothyung]

Landing lag IS the lag from aerial moves. It IS a kind of ending lag. Just the same as the lag of any other moves.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Did anyone read Plum's post talking about moonwalking? That's what I think of depth. It should be putting AT's to use in certain situations, not always necessary, but deepening your options. What you people are talking about is just repetitive practice of buttons you do until you simply forget you are doing it in the first place. It's like saying, "To jump, you should have to press X, Y, and L at the same time."

Perfect example. Can you link to that post?

The comparison is simple: requirements vs options. Both may serve to make the game technical, but options add depth while requirements do not. Options are clearly better than requirements when the end result is to make the game more technical.

L-cancel falls under a requirement that would make the game more technical, but add ultimately nothing to the gameplay. However, an AT like moonwalking adds an options that is both complicated in execution and application.

No one is (or rather should be) saying they don't want a technical game. It has everything to do with how you go about it, though. L-cancel is a shallow cop out for lack of a better method, plain and simple.

 

[kupo15]

The fact all the Magenta Names have the same philosophy here is probably not a good thing. :x

Just a random observation, not a knock or anything <.<

Clearly I don't have the same philosophy

On the contrary. I think it fits all of those nicely. You could get punished easily if you didn't perform the move correctly, and it's totally a situational tech, seeing as how it's not imperative you l-cancel the move. Fox had to in melee; he had to lcancel his dair to properly drill shine. But peach didn't have to l-cancel..

Seeing how brawl has more of a focus on AC aerials, the same would apply here how you won't be l canceling as much as melee. Miss those l cancels in melee...you die. Loved it lol.

So auto L cancel was a collective decision solely by WBR? or was it due to prodding from the community?

ALC was because the first MLC was terribly programmed (no offense to pw) so I asked him to make ALC for the time being. "for the time being" turned into this

We should require that everyone presses the shield button 3 times to airdodge. It would make the game deeper because you're pressing more buttons

No. IMO, whether or not to add MLC isn't the arbitrary tech skill, its how you implement it. If you need to triple click l or rotate your joystick, that is an arbitray tech skill compared to a single click.

 

[FrozenHobo]

anding lag IS the lag from aerial moves. It IS a kind of ending lag. Just the same as the lag of any other moves.

but you're complaining about using L to speed up the lag at the end of EVERY move which is not what l-canceling is.