Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[timothyung]

but you're complaining about using L to speed up the lag at the end of EVERY move which is not what l-canceling is.

But why are we only required to hit a button during landing lags to speed up the lag, but not any other kind of lags?

 

[CloneHat]

For those who wanted this post.

It basically sums up my thoughts.

 

[FrozenHobo]

But why are we only required to hit a button during landing lags to speed up the lag, but not any other kind of lags?

because speeding up recovery time from landing lag lets you get back into the game faster.

edit: and now it sounds like you're asking why we HAVEN'T done that. which side are you on?

 

[CloneHat]

because speeding up recovery time from landing lag lets you get back into the game faster.

I don't think you're understanding him. He's saying if a button can be pressed to shorten the landing lag of moves, then why doesn't this function exist on grounded moves.

 

[timothyung]

I mean that, if you have to press a button to reduce the landing lag from aerials, we should also press a button to speed up the already sped up ending lags of other moves. Since we didn't do that, MLC should not be in.

 

[FrozenHobo]

so because a tech that was not present in other games is NOT being implemented in a similar way to one that WAS in both 64 and melee you feel that the old tech should be ignored completely....


and to top this off, the tech you're mentioning has only been suggested by you.... and so when that tech is ignored you use that as an excuse to bash another tech that happens to be similar, though not the same....


am i getting all of this right? you're whining about having to press a button to land faster?

 

[SketchHurricane]

so because a tech that was not present in other games is NOT being implemented in a similar way to one that WAS in both 64 and melee you feel that the old tech should be ignored completely....


and to top this off, the tech you're mentioning has only been suggested by you.... and so when that tech is ignored you use that as an excuse to bash another tech that happens to be similar, though not the same....


am i getting all of this right? you're whining about having to press a button to land faster?

*facepalm*

He's making a point (that you're obviously not getting) that if you want to add button presses to speed up the game, you might as well do it for everything, not just landing lag.

How on earth you read so deeply into that is anybody's guess.

 

[Arkaether]

Rather, how on earth he failed to understand it at all is what I'm confused about. It's pretty obvious.

 

[FrozenHobo]

he's offering up a tech idea that nobody had previously mentioned to combat a tech that has been in both 64 and melee.

 

[timothyung]

A tech that has been in both 64 and melee doesn't mean it's a good tech

 

[Arkaether]

He's NOT offering up a tech idea, he's point out the absurdity of applying a technique to only one particular endlag instead of all endlag. It's SARCASM. Which you have never heard of before, apparently.

(Hint, that last sentence was sarcasm too.)

 

[FrozenHobo]

A tech that has been in both 64 and melee doesn't mean it's a good tech

so adding a technique that distinguishes competent players from newb players is bad. got it. lets just make every character vbrawl mk and call it a day.

 

[Arkaether]

Using a single technique to differentiate new and intermediate players is utterly absurd, given that the tech in question serves absolutely no purpose EXCEPT to differentiate new and intermediate players. Better players are not defined solely by tech skill, they are defined by an understanding of the game's mechanics and the situational advantages which you can do. Grabbing someone and throwing them off the ledge backwards so they can't grab it in melee is competent play. Proper zoning, DI followup, and DI are all extremely important aspects of competitive play that do not involve tech skill at all.

The important purpose of tech skill in a fighting game is not to "distinguish competent players from newb players", the important purpose of tech skill is to open up a variety of options which were not originally there, such as dc, wavedashing, moonwalking, and a myriad of techniques which actually serve a purpose in competitive play.

If you have ever actually PLAYED another 2d fighting game, you should know what I'm talking about. A player's skill in SF4 is not determined by how good they are at "tech skill", it's determined by their understanding of game flow, advantages and disadvantages, spacing, approaches, and multiple other fighting game fundamentals that are far more important to excelling at a fighting game than simple execution skill.

 

[timothyung]

so adding a technique that distinguishes competent players from newb players is bad. got it. lets just make every character vbrawl mk and call it a day.

Yes, make every character as strong as MK, then they'll all be balanced. Though we are aiming at high tier level, not top tier level.
BTW, "it's not a good tech" doesn't mean "it is a bad tech". The point is that it can't be a good tech just because it is in both 64 and melee.
And you can already distinguish a new player from a decent one by seeing how they DI, space, sweepspot the ledge, edge guard, etc.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Yes, make every character as strong as MK, then they'll all be balanced. Though we are aiming at high tier level, not top tier level.
BTW, "it's not a good tech" doesn't mean "it is a bad tech". The point is that it can't be a good tech just because it is in both 64 and melee.
And you can already distinguish a new player from a decent one by seeing how they DI, space, sweepspot the ledge, edge guard, etc.

then how can it be a bad tech? because it makes you consciously have to press a button to speed up your get up time?

and despite those techs (DI, spacing, etc.) that have already been implemented the game is still considered less complex than vbrawl. we want a game that promotes competitive gameplay. l-canceling further separates players by how fast they can recover from aerials. yes, those current techs make a difference but not a huge difference. l-canceling is the same in that it won't make a big difference, but enough of one that you can tell a noticeable difference between between players simply by how they're character moves. ALC completely eliminates the need to have this extra skill by making every aerial attack's landing lag near unpunishable.

 

[Arkaether]

ALC completely eliminates the need to have this extra skill by making every aerial attack's landing lag near unpunishable.

...and l-canceling doesn't?

 

[CloneHat]

As Ark said, it is a tech that solely exists to separate beginners from experienced players. See my previous posts.

 

[Blank Mauser]

That's something I simply don't understand. I see it stated over and over...but...you're saying that the game building process should be:

Balance > Add Techs > Re-balance

Well, when you consider that our coders are busy working on plenty of essential additions already, you can't really just throw these ideas out there. What I mean by waiting is, that hopefully once there is actually a game to expand on and we realize that we actually DO want to expand it more, we have to make sure we're doing it the right way. M-canceling sounds good on paper to a lot of people, but we need to make sure specifics are worked out and whether its exactly what we want. Do we really want it to take shield? Will that really be detrimental at all? Will this only really be useful for heavies and not make a difference to plenty of other chars? Are there any technical implications we may have to consider? These are all a normal process for adding anything to Brawl+, and AT's aren't an exception simply because they're universal and add "tech-skill."

Also, this has become a tired argument. Its obvious people are just asking for a game-enforced skill barrier, and are overlooking natural skill barriers. If you don't like the fact that Brawl+ wishes to remain accessible then go play a different game, because this just goes against our goal. People will stand out for being smart, precise, accurate players, not because the game makes it harder for everyone else to catch up.

 

[timothyung]

Brawl+ isn't meant to be complex

 

[Deleted member]

The last I'll say about this argument is that precedents exist in 64 and Melee - and we know that the canceling of lag in those games served to make it more competitive and fun. The same would be inevitable for Brawl+, but whatever.

 

[FrozenHobo]

As Ark said, it is a tech that solely exists to separate beginners from experienced players. See my previous posts.

and whats wrong with that? why should newbs be given something that makes it easier to play? there needs to be a distinction between good players and new players. l-canceling gives a slight increase in recovery time. the only way most people would even notice the difference would be the vets who can tell when to capitalize on it.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I just felt like posting since my post are being ignored and no1 will read this lol

 

[Arkaether]

The last I'll say about this argument is that precedents exist in 64 and Melee - and we know that the canceling of lag in those games served to make it more competitive and fun. The same would be inevitable for Brawl+, but whatever.

And precedents existed in KoF, SF, GG, and multiple other 2D doujin fighters in which canceling of lag didn't exist and the games were just as competitive and just as fun. The same is inevitable for Brawl+.

and whats wrong with that? why should newbs be given something that makes it easier to play? there needs to be a distinction between good players and new players. l-canceling gives a slight increase in recovery time. the only way most people would even notice the difference would be the vets who can tell when to capitalize on it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7743551&postcount=4253

 

[Blank Mauser]

The last I'll say about this argument is that precedents exist in 64 and Melee - and we know that the canceling of lag in those games served to make it more competitive and fun. The same would be inevitable for Brawl+, but whatever.

Canceling of lag does exist, it just doesn't require an unneeded button input.

 

[Revven]

I just felt like posting since my post are being ignored and no1 will read this lol

Dude just chill man, I read the posts in here everyday (even WHEN the discussion is annoying as hell and shouldn't be as ongoing as it is *cough* *cough* *hint* *hint*) and if I find something interesting, I bring it up with shanus or someone else in the WBR and we talk about it. You shouldn't have to feel like you're ignored knowing this (especially when shanus has even said he reads this thread too).

Just chillax and post your feedback and I'll catch it no problem dude.

 

[timothyung]

It should be the cancel of the lag, but not the button press, which make it more competitive and fun. But even if the button press will make it more competitive, it doesn't fit Brawl+, because it adds unnecessary complexity to the game.

and whats wrong with that? why should newbs be given something that makes it easier to play? there needs to be a distinction between good players and new players. l-canceling gives a slight increase in recovery time. the only way most people would even notice the difference would be the vets who can tell when to capitalize on it.

Why shouldn't newbs be given something that makes it easier to play? And I'll tell you how to distinguish good players from new players: good ones win, and bad ones lose.

 

[Swordplay]

You............WOW..........I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. A bunch of idiots!!!!


THERE IS A LEARNING CURVE IN B+.

But it doesn't come from learning techs such as L-canceling and stuff.

The REAL learning curve comes into understanding a much more complex counterpick system, thus forcing you to learn and maintain multiple characters at a very high level of play. This is fairly difficult to do once you consider you need to understand all of an individual characters AT's.

L-canceling is not an individual AT, only a general AT which everybody will use and does not contribute to the complex counterpick system. It only is a technical barrier that good players will overcome resulting in it being OP, and bad players will never learn thus resulting in a lack of B+ interest due to the barrier.

Thus, anybody arguing that L-canceling adds some sort of "skill or depth" doesn't understand the nature in brawl+. A complex counterpick system is the "skill and depth."If you don't understand this, I'll hit you with a hammer in the head.


====================================================

Edit:

Bassically, because of this, B+ will be a little bit more about intelligence, counterpicks, and mindgames and a little less about tech skill..........

That is the nature of balancing the game. (Although, skill can overcome anything so it is still one of the most important factors)

 

[FrozenHobo]

It should be the cancel of the lag, but not the button press, which make it more competitive and fun. But even if the button press will make it more competitive, it doesn't fit Brawl+, because it adds unnecessary complexity to the game.

but if the canceling of the lag is automatic then its not really canceling, its just making aerials have no lag. manually canceling is actually a skill. additionally, having the move be needed to manually canceled increases the landing lag for moves that aren't l-canceled meaning you're punished if you miss it which then plays into the combos in B+and force the person who missed the l-cancel to DI and turn the fight back around. it punishes the player more for messing up.

Why shouldn't newbs be given something that makes it easier to play? And I'll tell you how to distinguish good players from new players: good ones win, and bad ones lose.

what? how the **** does that make sense? ever played online? good people lose all the time to mediocre players. additionally, by your reasoning good players should never lose. i have to wonder how tourneys work in your world....

 

[Arkaether]

what? how the **** does that make sense? ever played online? good people lose all the time to mediocre players. additionally, by your reasoning good players should never lose. i have to wonder how tourneys work in your world....

what? how the **** does that make sense? ever played online?

ever played online?

played online?

All I have to say:

lol.

 

[kupo15]

But why are we only required to hit a button during landing lags to speed up the lag, but not any other kind of lags?

Because speeding up the lag from Pits arrows, or tornado, or w.e would be broken. Sped up aerial lag is obviously not broken

Using a single technique to differentiate new and intermediate players is utterly absurd, given that the tech in question serves absolutely no purpose EXCEPT to differentiate new and intermediate players.

No. l canceling wouldn't be the sole technique that differentiates players. L canceling in additon to the techs you mentioned below, however, does. You can't just pin this blame on l canceling when I could just as well turn it around to say that "why does DI have to be the sole technique that differentiates players?" As we all (hopefully) should know, DI in melee is a tough technique that separated noobs from pros. It was a good indication as to how good the player was.

Better players are not defined solely by tech skill, they are defined by an understanding of the game's mechanics and the situational advantages which you can do. Grabbing someone and throwing them off the ledge backwards so they can't grab it in melee is competent play. Proper zoning, DI followup, and DI are all extremely important aspects of competitive play that do not involve tech skill at all.

You see, by adding in these so called "competitive techniques and elements" such as hitstun and like, without making them hard to do and without the need to practice and get good at them, you are essentially making what is supposed to be competitive mechanics and making them anti competitive. So one could argue that b+ is less competitive than vbrawl despite the fact how b+ has more competitive elements present than vbrawl...which isn't what the goal of b+ was supposed to be.

And I wouldn't say that DI isn't tech skill because it is in fact very difficult to do in melee. We seem to be mixing up what actually defines tech skill or just mixing the different variations of tech skill into one clump. Tech skill also doesn't have to pertain to an AT either. Being able to hit an opponent with a move is tech skill.

The important purpose of tech skill in a fighting game is not to "distinguish competent players from newb players", the important purpose of tech skill is to open up a variety of options which were not originally there, such as dc, wavedashing, moonwalking, and a myriad of techniques which actually serve a purpose in competitive play.

you are confusing "tech skill" with "techniques." Having options at your disposal to use and being able to execute those options are two totally different things. Melee had a LOT of techniques or options if you will but if you lacked the tech skill to perform them then you needed to practice. Being able to perform techniques is half of what being a good player is all about and it most definitely distinguishes competent players from newbs. This is no different than any other fighting game.

As Ark said, it is a tech that solely exists to separate beginners from experienced players. See my previous posts.

This is no different than any other technique out there like DI. Its only a part of a whole.

Also, brawl's engine does not reward situational techs very well. As we established before, I could be doing crazy dribbling as diddy or w.e and still be beaten out by someone who just plays smarter so adding techniques that actually require practice that pays off would be more beneficial.

Here is the split in b+. Some want a competitive game and some want an easy pick me up game...but you can't have both. B+ would have no competitive worth if you can win b+ tourneys without owning a copy of the game and only playing on the wim at tourneys.

 

[Blank Mauser]

but if the canceling of the lag is automatic then its not really canceling, its just making aerials have no lag. manually canceling is actually a skill. additionally, having the move be needed to manually canceled increases the landing lag for moves that aren't l-canceled meaning you're punished if you miss it which then plays into the combos in B+and force the person who missed the l-cancel to DI and turn the fight back around. it punishes the player more for messing up.





what? how the **** does that make sense? ever played online? good people lose all the time to mediocre players. additionally, by your reasoning good players should never lose. i have to wonder how tourneys work in your world....

It punishes the player more for messing up, and does nothing for the game at a high level of play. Precisely why its an unneeded skill to enforce and encourage.

Online is a completely different game, and some people take advantage of that. It means nothing against the actual skill barrier in Brawl+.

Edit: Kupo too? Oh no. Kupo, when will you get over your vendetta? If you think making the game harder somehow makes it more competitive then thats just a shallow viewpoint. If the only thing that keeps a player playing a game is forced difficulty then the game wouldn't be worth my time.

 

[WhalesOnStilts]

"but manual l canceling adds tech skill that differentiates between noobs and pros"

"but that tech skill doesnt make the game any deeper, it just adds an unneeded learning curve"

"but we need it"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

 

[FrozenHobo]

ompletely different game, and some people take advantage of that. It means nothing against the actual skill barrier in Brawl+.

my point. he implied that good players always win and bad players always lose, no matter the circumstances.

 

[Me_Aludes]

"but manual l canceling adds tech skill that differentiates between noobs and pros"

"but that tech skill doesnt make the game any deeper, it just adds an unneeded learning curve"

"but we need it"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

"yes we do"

"no we dont"

LOOOOOOOOOOOL that was amazing

 

[Arkaether]

Because speeding up the lag from Pits arrows, or tornado, or w.e would be broken. Sped up aerial lag is obviously not broken

Sped up lag on several ground moves is obviously not broken either. It could easily be used in replacement of the speed buffs that b+ gives, like the variety of tilts which have been given speed buffs. Set tilts to normal speed, add a ground tilt cancel tech, and bam, it's not broken. This way you get to press MORE buttons for the SAME result, just like l-canceling!

No. l canceling wouldn't be the sole technique that differentiates players. L canceling in additon to the techs you mentioned below, however, does. You can't just pin this blame on l canceling when I could just as well turn it around to say that "why does DI have to be the sole technique that differentiates players?" As we all (hopefully) should know, DI in melee is a tough technique that separated noobs from pros. It was a good indication as to how good the player was.

But it is. The difference between L-canceling and DI is that DI is something that changes depending on the situation and is not PURE MUSCLE MEMORY, which is what l-canceling boils down to. L-canceling is used in EVERY situation and serves NO indication as to how good the player is. I could be an utter crap player that can't DI, can't wavedash, can't space, can't even SHIELDGRAB, but I could have practiced l-canceling for hours and be pro at it.

You see, by adding in these so called "competitive techniques and elements" such as hitstun and like, without making them hard to do and without the need to practice and get good at them, you are essentially making what is supposed to be competitive mechanics and making them anti competitive. So one could argue that b+ is less competitive than vbrawl despite the fact how b+ has more competitive elements present than vbrawl...which isn't what the goal of b+ was supposed to be.

Because brawl+ is NOT meant to be a TECHNICALLY DIFFICULT game, but rather a COMPETITIVE GAME which relies less on EXECUTION and more on SMART GAMEPLAY. You can argue that B+ is lesstechnically competitive than vbrawl, but you cannot argue that it is less competitive. B+ has obvious skill levels which differentiate good and bad players without relying on technical skill.

And I wouldn't say that DI isn't tech skill because it is in fact very difficult to do in melee. We seem to be mixing up what actually defines tech skill or just mixing the different variations of tech skill into one clump. Tech skill also doesn't have to pertain to an AT either. Being able to hit an opponent with a move is tech skill.

Tech skill, as far as we have been using it in this thread, pertains to execution skills. Please don't assume we mean something else.

you are confusing "tech skill" with "techniques." Having options at your disposal to use and being able to execute those options are two totally different things. Melee had a LOT of techniques or options if you will but if you lacked the tech skill to perform them then you needed to practice. Being able to perform techniques is half of what being a good player is all about and it most definitely distinguishes competent players from newbs. This is no different than any other fighting game.

You are assuming that technical competitiveness is the most important competitiveness. Considering the variety of fighters that are smash in which technical competitiveness is a very small amount of the total skill level of the game itself, I would actual argue that technical competitiveness is the LEAST important competitiveness.

This is no different than any other technique out there like DI. Its only a part of a whole.

It's quite different, as has been stated multiple times, due to the fact that l-canceling is used in EVERY situation without regard for circumstances.

Also, brawl's engine does not reward situational techs very well. As we established before, I could be doing crazy dribbling as diddy or w.e and still be beaten out by someone who just plays smarter so adding techniques that actually require practice that pays off would be more beneficial.

If you're beaten out by someone who just plays smarter, then they should win. They're playing smarter. Are you saying that just because you're good at pressing buttons really fast, you should be able to beat me?

This is like saying that chess isn't a competitive game because it relies on you being intelligent to win.

Here is the split in b+. Some want a competitive game and some want an easy pick me up game...but you can't have both. B+ would have no competitive worth if you can win b+ tourneys without owning a copy of the game and only playing on the wim at tourneys.

No, here is the split in B+. Some want a technically competitive game and some want an intellectually competitive game. And you can't have both. Brawl+ has plenty competitive worth...if you play smart.

 

[Shell]

No, here is the split in B+. Some want a technically competitive game and some want an intellectually competitive game. And you can't have both.

Errr... why not?

Edit: just to add on to what SMK and shanus said, we see everything.

Now where the hell did my ninja emoticon get to...

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I love you smk :-*

edit: so im not spamming and since this will be read,
I think some characters in order to acheive better balance would be a throw modifier which you guys don't have. I know there's only 2 coders and things you guys are gonna have to test out but not abuse once you can implement is character specific hitstun. falcon is a good character as he is, and he should be able to be combo'd easily, but not as easily as he can be now. hopefully this will change what combos are used instead of the same tilt>tilt combos(tilt>tilt existed in melee too mainly marth but just saying, this aint melee and getting rid of stuff like that would throw some interesting stuff in). I believe a majority of the cast is pretty balanced as of now. just waiting for the character specific hitstun (CSH? :D) and a throw mod to play into effect when possible or if possible at all. not complaining or trying to rush you guys just putting my opinion in there. also guys stfu about lcancel before I **** u all in melee ill go dark rain on you *****es or hax status mother****ers get your **** tech chased by my pichu *****

 

[Blank Mauser]

I think you can have both, but do either of them REALLY have any valid relationship with competitiveness?

Brawl is arguably the easiest of the games to pick up, but has huge tourneys and is popular in its own right compared to Melee. Maybe even moreso.

In my opinion, making the ideal game in our eyes and sharing it rather then diluting its existence with precedence and standards would make the whole Brawl+ experience better.

 

[Arkaether]

Well, you can have both, but when you do, the other side loses a bit of influence. A mainly intellectual game relies little on technical skill, while a mainly technical game relies only a bit on intellectual. People that vote strongly for one side don't particularly want the other (for example, kupo wants a technical and not intellectual game), so by "you can't have both" I meant that the players wouldn't allow it, not that it isn't possible.

 

[Plum]

There is something to consider about where people want Brawl+ to go.

Do you want Brawl+ to be able to continuously gain popularity?
Or do you want to limit the game to the small community we have right now?

The best way for Brawl+ to keep gaining more users is to remain an easy to pick up game. This means that there are no immediate barriers between players other then their knowledge of the game.

Look at what Melee is right now. In terms of the competitive level of the game it is thriving, and players are better then they have ever been. At the same time, what makes the game so competitive is going to be the final nail in the coffin. A fighting game needs new players to survive, and if the game itself shuts itself out to new players then its going to die.

L canceling is just an arbitrary tech, and the only reason I see for people wanting it is to separate themselves from new players. That is such a horrible reason for something to be included that it isn't even funny.

That said, I wouldn't mind a more technical game, but I do not want to eliminate one of the great things B+ has going for it: a game that it easy to pick up. The route I would rather go though is into character specific AT's, and perhaps more of a reward for performing them. Some already have these types of options, like I said earlier with Sheik and Luigi's crawldashing and Squirtle's shellshifting.

These types of things can range from all sorts of things. An obvious example would be to give Captain Falcon the ability to moonwalk. Maybe Bowser would be given some form of crouch canceling with a well timed crouch (sort of like a powershield) or small super armor in his crawl playing into that whole Boozer don't care idea from early B+. Find a way to make Ganondorf's wiztruck super jump into a useful AT; with the height he gets from that, it has a lot of potential. Making Yoshi's pseudo wavedash techniques more worthwhile, or perfecting Ness's DJC options.

If we look into the character techs already available and actually give them an advantage when used correctly then that deepens competitive play without shutting out new players. Even better would be creating new B+ specific character techs on top of that which rewards a player who can execute them effectively and correctly. Players don't need these techs to succeed, smart play will always be able to make up for a lack of tech skill, but those who can would have a natural advantage because they would be given more available options and different rewards.