Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Wingflier]

If you say that someone can pick up Fox in a week and ****, I would say that the only people this person would **** would be absolute noobs. You're trying to say Fox is easy mode. Maybe Fox is easy mode in a relative sense, but since Brawl+ doesn't require tech skill, every character is easy to pick up and play, and if you somehow play Ike Day 1, and randomly understand how to use him, you could easily **** just as hard if you were knowledgeable of the previous Smash games.

Brawl+ DOES require tech skill, just as much (more probably than vBrawl) and almost as much as in Melee. The only techniques that B+ doesn't require that Melee had are l-canceling and wavedashing. To say that B+ doesn't require any AT skill is completely your own opinion and, might I add, pretty unjustified.

I taught my girlfriend those techniques in one day of playing Brawl+. They aren't hard to learn and half of them are common sense. Survival techs, like wall techs and techs when you get shot at like an 85 degree angle - these require a little bit of quick thinking, but they are not physically demanding. I've never played Brawl+ and felt I was not good enough to perform a move. Trained monkeys could do these.

Once again, these are your opinions. In my opinion, mastering all the ATs of Brawl+ is something that would take a very long time. Sure, anybody can use them from day one, but that doesn't mean they would be good at using them for a long time. This is why good players, even from vBrawl, continue to hone their ATs to try and become better than their opponent. I have not either met or heard of one good player that does not practice their ATs, especially perfect shielding, on an almost daily basis.

So if they are as "easy" as you say they are, then why the effort?

Would you rather a shallow game?

Would you rather use your brain?

I specifically said,

Also, Nobody said anything about depth. Making the game more skill-based would not affect "depth" in one way or the other.

Depth does not apply here, so stop bringing it up.

Fox is not more or less "skill-oriented" than Bowser. They both share the same techniques. Perhaps it's just easier to understand how Fox plays - Bowser may seem clunky to some, but **** to others.

Your argument sounds good on paper, but it's just not true. Let's look at the theoretical matchup list for both characters. Fox probably has a majority (75% or greater) of even or advantageous matchups because he is so fast, versatile, and powerful. Bowser, I can say without any doubt, has mostly even, many disadvantageous matchups, and maybe a few advantageous ones, but only by a small percentage.

Now of COURSE, player skill is a factor that we can consider here. A good Bowser could theoretically still win tournaments if he is good enough and defies the odds. However, if he wins it won't be because the game was balanced, it will be because he was a much better player than everybody else.

If we were to say NERF Fox to the point where he had a similar set of matchups (in percentages) as Bowser, then the game would revolve more around skill and counter-picking than outplaying your opponents to a ridiculous degree with lower-tier characters.

I am basically trying to say that tiers should be eliminated altogether.

Wing

 

[timothyung]

What you said, Wing, is Brawl+'s goal. It always has been.

 

[Swordplay]

I'd like to delve into another subject again: recoveries

I believe it was in the official 4.1b build that Ivysaur could UP+B multiple times in the air, however in the nightlies he can't. Is there a reason for this? I thought recovery wise it was really good, since tether-specific recoveries tend to be pretty mediocre. So is there a reason for it to have been removed? Was it breaking air combos? Not so much criticizing here, mostly looking to see if there was an answer I'd overlooked.


Link's recovery is still terrible, while I like what's been done with his UP+B offensively, it's primary use still seems like work is needed. Is it possible to give him a bit more of a boost?

Opinions and response encouraged.

BlueFoxXT

Yea, I play Link and I will tell you his recovery does suck.

TOO BAD!!!!!!!

In order to balance characters there will be weaknesses and strengths. That is his weakness. Deal with it.

I don't think I've ever disagreed with a post so vehemently. Umm, Brawl+ takes very very very little tech skill, other than, say, teching. Anyone can pick up the game in a week and pwn. Anyone, with any character. Not just Fox. And owning "most people"? I doubt it :/

I've never agree'd with a post more. By the time we get to golden, this WILL be the case because every character will balnced and the amount of time you put into a character will be proportionate to your skill.


Now I'll go one step further. Don't expect B+ to have a learning curve equal to melee. You could spend years at melee and still not master it. With B+, you could probably master a character in a month.


What makes B+ so kick *** is that the game will be so revolved around counter picks that 1 character will not be good enough, You'll need to know 2 or 3 inside and out to cover yourself and in that sense, keeping multiple characters up at top shape will prove challenging to any player thus ensuring a higher learning curve for the overall game.

 

[Plum]

I didn't say anything about depth, and it would make this community a lot better if you crackheads would just drop that subject altogether. No where did I say that making the characters more evenly balanced towards a "middle-tier" would be adding depth to the game; nor did I imply it in any way. Yes, let's just insult the community by calling people crackheads. That is the best way to make a point. That aside, it would be impossible to ever do this. Fighting games have tiers. NO EXCEPTIONS. There will always be top tiers, high tiers, mid tiers, and low tiers. You can never prevent that. Let's just continue on our course and lessen the gap between tiers to as little as possible. That will make the most balanced game possible.

But yes, I agree with you tim, in general, it probably requires a lot less skill to dominate with fox than most other characters in that game. Fox isn't the only example, he's just one of the best. The original point that KIEF was trying make was that we should make the game more skill-oriented, and less character/matchup based. This could be best accomplished by nerfing the top characters in the game that have 75%+ advantageous matchups (and we know there are many), rather than trying to get all the other characters up to their level. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. Matchups and counterpicking are an important part to EVERY fighting game. I can even argue that the need for counterpicking requires more skill then if everybody could win with one character because it requires enough skill to play and succeed with more than one character. If matchups didn't matter as much, then to me it sounds like you are proposing removing the distinct character weaknesses that create the indifference in matchups between characters Sorry to be a bit rude again, but that is also just stupid.

Because when you start buffing all the low/mid-tier characters up to the insanely high standards that the top characters are already at, you begin to get a massive power inflation that ruins the game. The only way Bowser, for example, could ever be on Fox's level, would be to make him more powerful than anybody would ever want him to be. Nobody is arguing that Bowser is 500x better than he was in vBrawl, but let's compare Fox's matchups to Bowser's, it's no contest. Brawl+ isn't about every character being at the same level. It never has been. Every character just has to be tournament viable. If you really pay attention to character changes you would clearly see that characters are given what they need to succeed, not what they need to dominate. Bowser right now is viable, even if he needs a little more work or not, and that is the goal. Just because a Bowser main needs a secondary to cover matchups doesn't mean he isn't viable.

However, if we brought Fox down to Bowser's level, it would be a lot more feasable because Fox would still be playable, and could have a similar percentage of good/bad matchups as Bowser, albeit against different characters (obviously). Nerfing Fox would probably have the exact same troubles as MK. It's very hard to nerf top tier characters without destroying what a move was intended to do, or make it useless altogether. Is it really a problem for Fox to be top tier? Top tier characters are going to exist no matter what. If you want to nerf Fox to a lower tier, then do it yourself; the WBR is going to keep on the current road and make the mediocre characters viable.

In short, establishing a "happy medium" for which to tweak the balance for all the characters, instead of making them all as godlike as possible (or as close to it without being blatantly ridiculous) is probably a better idea. If it was done this way, it would effectively "eliminate" tiers, and allow the characters to be more tightly knit. Again, TIERS ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO ELIMINATE. THEY ARE GOING TO EXIST NO MATTER WHAT UNLESS YOU WANT TO HOMOGENIZE THE CAST AND REMOVE CHARACTER WEAKNESSES THAT CREATE TIERS. (excuse the being an ***, but this is the internet) It would be ******** to do that, and again if you paid small attention to what is changed about characters then you would see that characters ARE NOT made to be godlike as you say. They are made to be VIABLE AND PLAYABLE AT THE COMPETITIVE LEVEL. The goal is to lessen the gap between the tiers, not make everybody top tier.

Really, when you think about, the only reason that the top tier characters are there is because people are used to them being so ridiculously good. It's not so much their movesets or some mysterious divine gift handed to them. Through the application of buffs or nerfs, any character could be the best or worst in little to no time at all. Actually, it is because of their movesets, and the divine gifts handed to them (character strengths and weaknesses). The top tier characters in B+ are top tiers because they are naturally suited for the physics of the game combined with their moveset. Marth is great because of his disjointed range and power. MK is great because of disjointed range and gimp ability. Fox is great because of his great combo game (due to the physics of the game). Olimar is great because of his ability to force approaches and completely shut them down, and a great combo/finishing game. See how these characters are naturally top tier because their movesets and strengths?

Let's take a look at the best characters in the game: Marth, MK, Snake, Fox, Falco, Wolf, G&W etc. I just need to say something here. You really need to get it out of your head that G&W is top tier. He isn't top tier in vBrawl (currently high) and in B+ he is average. Just average. Viable, but still average. I don't want to get into any sort of argument about G&W again, so just leave it there please. And Wolf? Another pretty average character. Just putting it out there...

What do all these characters have in common? Well they are all smaller characters for one. Snake is often mistaken for a "bigger" character but we all know that he is the same size as Marth and acts a lot more like a middle or smaller sized character. He just weighs a ton for no reason. What does this have to do with anything? Smaller characters are going to have an easier time because of their smaller hurtbox but this isn't something you can change. You can't just make Bowser the size of Squirtle (well you can... but that isn't a B+ related code). Character size is just another natural weakness that you can't get rid of.

Another thing they have in common is that they were either extremely powerful in vBrawl, or extremely powerful in Melee. Therefore, people just got used to them being way too good and figured that was the way it is supposed to be. Instead of nerfing them to the level of the other characters, they buffed them even more and tried to make up for this in other ways. When were these characters buffed to be clearly better EVER? Even Falco's shine doesn't make him any better of a character. And if you are really good in vBrawl, chances are you are going to be good in B+ too. I don't see how that is relevant at all. Also, the only character that I see as mediocre in vBrawl but great in Melee is Fox but the only thing making him good is the physics of B+. It wasn't the WBR just passing him nerfs. You really need to pay attention to what is done to characters so you stop making stupid comments like that. Fox is only good because of how well suited he is in the environment.

What I think most people don't realize is that most of lesser-tier characters will never be at this level, because nobody expects them to be this good, and would be shocked if they ever were. When has it ever been said that every character is going to be turned into some top tier character? NEVER. VIABILITY IS THE GOAL HERE, SO UNDERSTAND THAT. VIABLE =/= TOP TIER.

Also, Nobody said anything about depth. Making the game more skill-based would not affect "depth" in one way or the other. Yes it would actually. You can't say the skill level Melee required did not make it a very deep, and rich game. But one of the things that B+ should be is accessible. Their is already a clear defined difference between players of different skill, and the better player will win. But the game is still something that can be picked up by anyone; there won't be that "starting the game too late" thing Melee had.

Wing
Plum

Comments in said color.

I don't like multiquote... this is easier so sorry for those who don't like comments in the quote.

 

[grim mouser]

Agree 100% about tiers always existing and how tough it is to nerf top characters. That is exactly what I was talking about when I asked about a "nerf line."

What is the difference between letting Fox/MK be top or, say, letting Ike be top? Nothing, really.

There will be a point where the decision to let some character be top tier will need to be made. Eliminating the top tier will never be quite possible, inherently. How will the top character be decided if we can change power?

Once a "gold"release is hit, it would obviously make little sense to continue editing characters (outside of the occasional needed fix). To make a competitive game, you can't keep changing the things that players need to take time to master.

tl;dr- Once characters are balanced as much as possible, how can it be decided which character to allow to be the best, even if by a small margin?

 

[Deleted member]

Brawl+ DOES require tech skill, just as much (more probably than vBrawl) and almost as much as in Melee. The only techniques that B+ doesn't require that Melee had are l-canceling and wavedashing. To say that B+ doesn't require any AT skill is completely your own opinion and, might I add, pretty unjustified.

Wavedashing, l-canceling, jump-canceling, moonwalking, shine-canceling, chain grabs, etc etc.. I could go on. B+ requires some technical skill, obviously we aren't playing the game with our minds. But to say that it has almost as much as Melee is ... hilarious. LOL

Once again, these are your opinions. In my opinion, mastering all the ATs of Brawl+ is something that would take a very long time. Sure, anybody can use them from day one, but that doesn't mean they would be good at using them for a long time. This is why good players, even from vBrawl, continue to hone their ATs to try and become better than their opponent. I have not either met or heard of one good player that does not practice their ATs, especially perfect shielding, on an almost daily basis.

LOL. What do you practice? What CAN you practice? Chain grabs? No, those don't exist. L-Canceling? No, the game auto-cancels for you. Like... what could you possibly practice. I'm curious. Especially since you can buffer a perfect shield ahead of time :/ I know people who rank in vBrawl who don't even own a Wii, the game is that simple to learn.

So if they are as "easy" as you say they are, then why the effort?

What do you mean, why the effort? The game is easy to pick up. That's a fact. It's not my opinion. It's even in the Brawl+ FAQ - Brawl+ is trying to retain that element from vBrawl.

Would you rather use your brain?

As Brawl+ is not a tech skill oriented game (you cannot play Melee if you don't have proper l-cancels or wavedashes) you do in fact "use your brain" already more than you use your fingers. Brawl+ is about spacing, punishing, and all the other aspects of Smash that require proper timing, but not with your finger dexterity.

I specifically said,
Depth does not apply here, so stop bringing it up.

It absolutely applies here; you just obviously haven't played many fighting games. Brawl+ is already a deeper game than vBrawl because combos finally exist. These combos take skill to pull off, as you gotta read your opponent properly.

I am basically trying to say that tiers should be eliminated altogether.

Wing

As that is absolutely impossible, I suggest moving on and finding a better use of your time.

 

[BlueFoxXT]

The subject matter at hand is a bit pointless, we should be discussing changes and things that need to be changed.

can someone respond with an opinion on my previous post?

I'd like to delve into another subject again: recoveries

I believe it was in the official 4.1b build that Ivysaur could UP+B multiple times in the air, however in the nightlies he can't. Is there a reason for this? I thought recovery wise it was really good, since tether-specific recoveries tend to be pretty mediocre. So is there a reason for it to have been removed? Was it breaking air combos? Not so much criticizing here, mostly looking to see if there was an answer I'd overlooked.


Link's recovery is still terrible, while I like what's been done with his UP+B offensively, it's primary use still seems like work is needed. Is it possible to give him a bit more of a boost?

Opinions and response encouraged.

BlueFoxXT

 

[Rudra]

The subject matter at hand is a bit pointless, we should be discussing changes and things that need to be changed.

can someone respond with an opinion on my previous post?

Quoted.

Yea, I play Link and I will tell you his recovery does suck.

TOO BAD!!!!!!!

In order to balance characters there will be weaknesses and strengths. That is his weakness. Deal with it.

...and I agree. Ivy's strong onstage (though Razor Leaf is easier to get around) and plays decently both in the air and on the ground, but when offstage, she's supposed to suck. Its a weakness that transfered from VBrawl, and it should stay that way. Link's in a similar boat.

 

[timothyung]

Their recoveries are very bad in vBrawl, and I believe with the slight recovery buff, it's OK. Buffing a very weak point while still keeping it as a weak point is good, but not completely removing the weak point

 

[Plum]

Ivy lost the multiple Up B's in favor of an "Olimar hop."
The ending of her Up B has been speed up to allow her to DI at the peak of the hop the Up B naturally gives her like Olimar can. I think its a fair exchange, especially considering how her Up B itself is much more reliable than Olimar's. The thing Olimar had over Ivy was the hop which can be the difference between falling helpless and loosing a stock and making it back on stage when you are right next to the ledge with the opponent on it.

Link's recovery already received a little gain in height, so it really doesn't need more. It's problem is momentum though; if you are in one direction and want to Up B the opposite way then good luck :\
The massive buffs to Link's stage game definitely make up for it though. You know B+ has done something right when a consistently poor character can be called good.

Bad recoveries are just a character weakness though.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

"Edit: I just tested this quick to confirm, and replicated the glitch. You can't put Tuxedo Wario on any of the overalls colors, only on his biker colors, otherwise his grab pummel glitches. Hopefully this was the answer you were looking for."

Thank you.

 

[BlueFoxXT]

Yea, I play Link and I will tell you his recovery does suck.

TOO BAD!!!!!!!

In order to balance characters there will be weaknesses and strengths. That is his weakness. Deal with it.

I suppose you're right. Also, in response to a later post unquoted, it's possible that he might've been UP+Bing backwards since he'd gotten in an awkward position on FD, I don't play Link in B+ but the entire match my friend had just died off ledge so easily I had wondered how much the recovery had actually been buffed. I just went into training and did a full momentum UP+B, and it's certainly a lot better than it used to be. I renounce my prior statements, but thankyou for the responses.

 

[Wingflier]

LOL. What do you practice? What CAN you practice? Chain grabs? No, those don't exist. L-Canceling? No, the game auto-cancels for you. Like... what could you possibly practice. I'm curious. Especially since you can buffer a perfect shield ahead of time :/ I know people who rank in vBrawl who don't even own a Wii, the game is that simple to learn.

Chain grabs DO exist. Have you ever played ICs? GG.

Also, just because you can buffer a perfect shield, does not make it an easy thing to do. The button has to be pressed within 2 frames or (1/30th of a second) of whatever attack you are defending against. In vBrawl it was 4 frames, so it is now twice as hard to do, and I know that many professional players spend a lot of time honing that in vBrawl (DSF and M2K just as a small example) even though it is much easier.

In addition, DI, SDI, teching, spot dodging, air dodging etc. are all also tech skills that you can always improve upon. SDI in particular is much more effective if you practice using it against every attack in the game since when you SDI into the weaker hitboxes of an attack, you can obviously survive for much longer. Since I'm sure you haven't mastered SDI against every attack in the game, even you, as godlike as you think you are, still have a lot to learn about tech skill.

What do you mean, why the effort? The game is easy to pick up. That's a fact. It's not my opinion. It's even in the Brawl+ FAQ - Brawl+ is trying to retain that element from vBrawl.

Nobody said the game wasn't easy to pick up. The game takes a long time to master. In vBrawl tournaments, the winners typically conquer because of their ability to use ATs correctly, and use Metaknight. The same thing applies to Melee, AT has a huge influence on the winner. The same thing also applies to Brawl+; so stop arguing that it is not important and that you can't get better with it.

As Brawl+ is not a tech skill oriented game...

Once again, this is untrue. To prove it to you, I want to face two people, one person who knows all the ATs of B+ vs. one person who has no concept of them against one another. Who do you think will win? It wouldn't be a victory, it would be a massacre.

ATs are still incredibly important in B+, whether you think so or not.

It absolutely applies here; you just obviously haven't played many fighting games. Brawl+ is already a deeper game than vBrawl because combos finally exist. These combos take skill to pull off, as you gotta read your opponent properly.

Who said anything about combos lol? What does that even have to do with this argument?

It's people like you who keep bringing depth up out of left-field for no reason.

As that is absolutely impossible, I suggest moving on and finding a better use of your time.

Perfection, in any aspect of life, is impossible. Luckily, we're not all like you, and some of us can still strive for it.

 

[Nybb]

Brawl+ DOES require tech skill, just as much (more probably than vBrawl) and almost as much as in Melee. The only techniques that B+ doesn't require that Melee had are l-canceling and wavedashing. To say that B+ doesn't require any AT skill is completely your own opinion and, might I add, pretty unjustified.


Once again, these are your opinions. In my opinion, mastering all the ATs of Brawl+ is something that would take a very long time. Sure, anybody can use them from day one, but that doesn't mean they would be good at using them for a long time. This is why good players, even from vBrawl, continue to hone their ATs to try and become better than their opponent. I have not either met or heard of one good player that does not practice their ATs, especially perfect shielding, on an almost daily basis.

So if they are as "easy" as you say they are, then why the effort?


Would you rather use your brain?

I specifically said,
Depth does not apply here, so stop bringing it up.


Your argument sounds good on paper, but it's just not true. Let's look at the theoretical matchup list for both characters. Fox probably has a majority (75% or greater) of even or advantageous matchups because he is so fast, versatile, and powerful. Bowser, I can say without any doubt, has mostly even, many disadvantageous matchups, and maybe a few advantageous ones, but only by a small percentage.

Now of COURSE, player skill is a factor that we can consider here. A good Bowser could theoretically still win tournaments if he is good enough and defies the odds. However, if he wins it won't be because the game was balanced, it will be because he was a much better player than everybody else.

If we were to say NERF Fox to the point where he had a similar set of matchups (in percentages) as Bowser, then the game would revolve more around skill and counter-picking than outplaying your opponents to a ridiculous degree with lower-tier characters.

I am basically trying to say that tiers should be eliminated altogether.

Wing

Have you ever played Melee on a competitive level? I would think not. There is no comparison at all between the techskill of Melee and B+ lol.

I'm quite curious as to what techniques you think require like any practice at all? I mean, there are a few random character specific things like auto-cancelling certain aerials and stuff, but you can just turn up your buffer.

I'm going to assume that what you meant was hard to use properly, in which case, there might be a few things, but largely everything is pretty easy to do and there is no reason to not do it. The only technique I would say requires any kind of practice is DI, but once you understand the concept and work on your reflexes a bit even that is pretty easy to do as effectively as possible.

Anyway, on to the main part of what you said. As others who responded to you have already said, it is impossible to remove tiers. B+ is about as close to this as you can get. Pretty much all the characters are viable. There are some that are better than others, and yes there are some that take less practice. You can't really "fix" this. There will always be characters who are more difficult to play than others. If you for some reason really hate that, you don't have to play as them. And once B+ is finished, you will be able to counterpick those characters if you feel the need.

Making everybody middle tier might sound alright on paper, but it just isn't doable while still having every character be unique.





Edit: You seem to have posted while I was writing this. My response will be up in a minute.

Edit 2:

Chain grabs DO exist. Have you ever played ICs? GG.

Also, just because you can buffer a perfect shield, does not make it an easy thing to do. The button has to be pressed within 2 frames or (1/30th of a second) of whatever attack you are defending against. In vBrawl it was 4 frames, so it is now twice as hard to do, and I know that many professional players spend a lot of time honing that in vBrawl (DSF and M2K just as a small example) even though it is much easier.

In addition, DI, SDI, teching, spot dodging, air dodging etc. are all also tech skills that you can always improve upon. SDI in particular is much more effective if you practice using it against every attack in the game since when you SDI into the weaker hitboxes of an attack, you can obviously survive for much longer. Since I'm sure you haven't mastered SDI against every attack in the game, even you, as godlike as you think you are, still have a lot to learn about tech skill.

I think you have a different definition of tech skill than other people who are debating with you here. When I think of tech skill, I think of things that require either very precise timing or very rapid input. Things like spot-dodging and air-dodging do not exactly require either of those. These are things that anybody can do as soon as they understand what is going on. Teching is also extremely easy in B+. There isn't really room in improve on any of these things once you sit down, practice for a few minutes and understand what is going on.

Nobody said the game wasn't easy to pick up. The game takes a long time to master. In vBrawl tournaments, the winners typically conquer because of their ability to use ATs correctly, and use Metaknight. The same thing applies to Melee, AT has a huge influence on the winner. The same thing also applies to Brawl+; so stop arguing that it is not important and that you can't get better with it.

I disagree. The game does take a long time to master, but that has very very little to do with correct use of ATs. Smash is and always has been about mindgames. Predicting your opponent while staying unpredictable yourself has far more impact on overall player skill than proper use of ATs. This is true for all four (lol) smash games. In Melee you needed techskill to compete, but at the high levels of play when everyone has techskill, mindgames become far more important again.

Once again, this is untrue. To prove it to you, I want to face two people, one person who knows all the ATs of B+ vs. one person who has no concept of them against one another. Who do you think will win? It wouldn't be a victory, it would be a massacre.

ATs are still incredibly important in B+, whether you think so or not.

I would contend that if the person who knows all the ATs has spent all their time practicing against CPUs, while the person who doesn't know them always plays people and understands the prediction elements of the game, the second person would still win in B+.

 

[FrozenHobo]

wing, ICs CGs are being removed in the final release.

 

[Revven]

wing, ICs CGs are being removed in the final release.

Not the CGs.... the INFINITE.

 

[FrozenHobo]

from what i understand you're just allowing one hand off. thats not really a cg.

 

[HeroPenguin]

6-26 impressions:

Wolf's sideB change I couldn't see any difference in the end. Is the sourspot change supposed to apply to the dash itself (I REALLY hope not), because if it is, I didn't notice that occurring.

Peach Bomber change is awesome. It's great to get a surprise kill with that move using its slower start up to bait a spotdodge or roll or something.

Ness's physics are still good, though I did finally discover what the DJC glitch was as mentioned earlier, and I'm glad it's been removed until it can be fixed.

Unrelated commentary:

Kirby's jab combo seems to be a legit wall lock. I wasn't able to break it on any occasion that I got stuck in it. This ought to be looked at, I think.

 

[kupo15]

Lol at the whole Wing and DeLoRtEd1 debate was a nice read. Totally side with DeLoRtEd1

B+ isn't even close to the tech skill melee had and quite frankly, it will never get close to that level. Melee is much faster paced, l cancels, wavedashing, CGs, ledge canceled aerials, moonwalks, JC grabs, harder pivots, ledge teching, shine stuff, a really tight hitstun window where you have to be really precise or else you will miss, no OOS punishing if someone hits your shield from behind (with exceptions) much harder to escape combos and reset back to neutral from the air dodging system, no reverse ledge grabbing with 8 (?) exceptions but its still situational, a ledge that doesn't grab you, double stick DI, crouch canceling, lack of RAR (which is a really neat tech but makes the game a tad easier because you don't have to be wary of which way you are facing to continue a combo) a ton of char specific tricks and all of this with a very tight buffer window that has to be executed quickly, accurately and consistently.

I most definitely missed some other things but melee sees much more lag because shffls predominate over b+'s auto canceled aerials yet its still faster paced. Comboing very well against a highly polished melee player is pretty difficult especially if you don't have cookie cutter combos (like falco) and you need to be precise. But even this shine stuff that is cookie cutter is still very hard to do and requires practice and is not something you can just do 2 months without playing. If you are not precise and smooth with your inputs, you won't do well unlike "brawl" in general where it feels as though the game does most if not all the work for you allows sloppiness.

It recovers for you, combos for you and gets you out of pressure with relative ease. The only thing that you need and the only thing to focus on is the decision making which quite frankly, melee also had decision making if not more decisions, intense decisions to make and each wrong decision is punished ten fold. There really is not a whole lot of solid technique where you need to worry about executing without it getting in the way of your decision making. B+ 's lack of ways to get better and improve technique wise makes the game quite 1 dimensional and very easy to make correct decisions most of the time which makes it a game that anyone can pick up and in a few days compete at a pretty decent level

As long as you have adequate smash knowledge from before, you should fine in b+ with relative ease because even 64 is a more technical game. You have to be precise in melee but in b+ you can afford to be sloppy merely because of the way brawl's engine is designed in addition to the lack of techniques. You can be inconsistent with the controller you use in b+ but in melee you really have to use the same controller so you keep the feel just like any other sport.

Brawl+ has went a really long way which is fantastic but there isn't any comparison between b+ and melee and there never will be.

 

[rinoH]

Lol at the whole Wing and DeLoRtEd1 debate was a nice read. Totally side with DeLoRtEd1

B+ isn't even close to the tech skill melee had and quite frankly, it will never get close to that level. Melee is much faster paced, l cancels, wavedashing, CGs, ledge canceled aerials, moonwalks, JC grabs, harder pivots, ledge teching, shine stuff, a really tight hitstun window where you have to be really precise or else you will miss, no OOS punishing if someone hits your shield from behind (with exceptions) much harder to escape combos and reset back to neutral from the air dodging system, no reverse ledge grabbing with 8 (?) exceptions but its still situational, a ledge that doesn't grab you, double stick DI, crouch canceling, lack of RAR (which is a really neat tech but makes the game a tad easier because you don't have to be wary of which way you are facing to continue a combo) a ton of char specific tricks and all of this with a very tight buffer window that has to be executed quickly, accurately and consistently.

I most definitely missed some other things but melee sees much more lag because shffls predominate over b+'s auto canceled aerials yet its still faster paced. Comboing very well against a highly polished melee player is pretty difficult especially if you don't have cookie cutter combos (like falco) and you need to be precise. But even this shine stuff that is cookie cutter is still very hard to do and requires practice and is not something you can just do 2 months without playing. If you are not precise and smooth with your inputs, you won't do well unlike "brawl" in general where it feels as though the game does most if not all the work for you allows sloppiness.

It recovers for you, combos for you and gets you out of pressure with relative ease. The only thing that you need and the only thing to focus on is the decision making which quite frankly, melee also had decision making if not more decisions, intense decisions to make and each wrong decision is punished ten fold. There really is not a whole lot of solid technique where you need to worry about executing without it getting in the way of your decision making. B+ 's lack of ways to get better and improve technique wise makes the game quite 1 dimensional and very easy to make correct decisions most of the time which makes it a game that anyone can pick up and in a few days compete at a pretty decent level

As long as you have adequate smash knowledge from before, you should fine in b+ with relative ease because even 64 is a more technical game. You have to be precise in melee but in b+ you can afford to be sloppy merely because of the way brawl's engine is designed in addition to the lack of techniques. You can be inconsistent with the controller you use in b+ but in melee you really have to use the same controller so you keep the feel just like any other sport.

Brawl+ has went a really long way which is fantastic but there isn't any comparison between b+ and melee and there never will be.

very well summed up Kupo

 

[Wingflier]

I never said B+ requires as much tech skill as in Melee, in fact I'm pretty sure I admitted that Melee DOES require more. However, to say that B+ requires little to none after the first week is completely wrong IMO. I still believe honing your AT will improve your game in a huge amount.

Perfect shielding, SDI, spot-dodging, air dodging, and wall teching are all things that you can improve on even after you know how to do them.

Nobody said that it takes as much skill as in Melee, but it's still important to work on.

 

[Deleted member]

almost as much as in Melee

Forgive us for assuming you said this - as you basically lost all credibility once you did. You keep listing "advanced techniques" that are not difficult to perform. I do not think I am godly at Brawl+; it is just simply because pressing L in the air is not physically challenging for me to do. I simply wrap my finger around the controller and press firmly. :o

As for your silly thought experiment:

If the new player in the situation has no concept of the "ATs" you talk about, then they simply haven't played or seen a Smash Brothers game. It's like proposing a situation of a player who has no concept of smash attacks or jumps. ... your analogy just fails hard

One last note: I'm not kidding around when I say it's impossible to make everyone middle tier. When you have different characters with different movesets, it is impossible for them to be equally as good. There will always be a "worst character in the game" situation.


Also, this debate may seem irrelevant, but it's not. We need the entire Brawl+ community on board with the same perspective on the game, which will turn out to be a deep, customizable, and enjoyable fighting game based on counter-picks and stage bans.

 

[CloneHat]

Brawl+ is not a tech skilled game. Everything is easier to do. I never got hooked on to Melee because, frankly, you have to learn a LOT. Once you learn all the ATs, you're good to go, but it takes extensive practice. That's why Melee appealed to competitive gamers, you can't just hop in and win, there's so much memorization and fast fingers involved in being good. Then Brawl came out. Brawl is easy as ****, the most advanced things are infinite locks and a 4-frame powershield. Brawl+ adds depth and enjoyment and competitive-ness to vBrawl, but it will never require the extensive training Melee did. It's deeper than vBrawl, but more casual than Melee.

EDIT: It's impossible for all characters to be even because even if certain strengths counteract weaknesses, the said traits are all in different areas of play, affecting all others differently.

 

[MK26]

EDIT: It's impossible for all characters to be even because even if certain strengths counteract weaknesses, the said traits are all in different areas of play, affecting all others differently.

And thus, we counterpick. Making all characters equal does not necessarily mean making every individual matchup 50/50. Characters, especially good characters, having hard counters is not a bad thing. (As an example) I'm all for, say, ZSS, if she is inherently bad, being able to destroy Fox, if he has the majority of his matchups in his favour. I have no problem with a single move by a bad character being able to completely **** a good character (or three), as long as the single move's effect on the user character as a whole is minimal.

In simpler terms, we should try to foster a limited number of hard counters, especially when a top tier is the counteree (think 'adopter/adoptee'; 'counterer/counteree'), rather than attempting to abolish these hard counters.

======

Related to HeroPenguin's unrelated commentary: SDI toward Kirby to push him way from the wall, then SDI back to the wall.

 

[CloneHat]

Controlling matchups is also harder when all the characters' well...characteristics are to be left alone.

 

[Plum]

I never said B+ requires as much tech skill as in Melee, in fact I'm pretty sure I admitted that Melee DOES require more. However, to say that B+ requires little to none after the first week is completely wrong IMO. I still believe honing your AT will improve your game in a huge amount.

Perfect shielding, SDI, spot-dodging, air dodging, and wall teching are all things that you can improve on even after you know how to do them.

Nobody said that it takes as much skill as in Melee, but it's still important to work on.

It's funny that you said B+ has almost as much tech skill as Melee in an earlier post, and then say you never did say it.

I think it's fairly safe to say that general techniques in Brawl require little skill to learn. Pivots, dash canceling, perfect shielding, RAR'd aerials, DACUS, glide tossing, and the like take a few minutes to learn. Putting them into your play may take a few matches, because Brawl techs are so inherently simple.

There is also character specific AT's, and some may take a decent amount of time to learn, but it is still nothing compared to Melee. Actually, in many cases the techs can be considered useless to the overall play of a character.

Some players may use AT's extensively (think of flashy Diddy players Dribbling all over the place) where as some compete at the exact same top level through playing smart alone (I've seen AZ go through matches playing a very dull Diddy, but still **** HARD with him because he is such a smart player).

I would qualify many character AT's under the same category as moonwalking; it doesn't effect the overall play of the game, but is just something you can choose to incorporate into your game, or not.

In all honesty, it really can't be that important at all if top players can succeed without even owning the game. There is just no comparison in tech skill to Melee and Brawl/Brawl+.

 

[Wingflier]

I never said B+ requires as much tech skill as in Melee, in fact I'm pretty sure I admitted that Melee DOES require more.

It's funny that you said B+ has almost as much tech skill as Melee in an earlier post, and then say you never did say it.

When did I say that I never said that? I have always had the stance that Melee requires more tech skill than Brawl.

Self-pwn ftw.

 

[Deleted member]

When did I say that I never said that? I have always had the stance that Melee requires more tech skill than Brawl.

Self-pwn ftw.

K just stop posting, srsly.

 

[Wingflier]

Sure

10char

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

yoshi's maaad beaaast
well ok not really but he's pretty good, that guy just needs his out of shield options back, like jumping out of shield and upsmash. other than that I was doing pretty well with yoshi, but maybe it was just the match-ups(jiggs and fox I mostly played against). I think his down b should kill sooner. most people aren't hit with it but if they are it should y'know..send ya somewhere.

this.
*****es

 

[FrozenHobo]

this.
*****es

i agree that his down b should have either a) more knockback b) larger hit area c) stronger suction.


additionally, i would be in favor of his side b getting more distance in the air. not rollout distance, mind you, but something better than falling like a rock.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

i agree that his down b should have either a) more knockback b) larger hit area c) stronger suction.


additionally, i would be in favor of his side b getting more distance in the air. not rollout distance, mind you, but something better than falling like a rock.

itd be weird using his forward b to recover since he has a good amount of aerial mobility.. it'd kinda have to be roll-out speed to be of any use but his recovery isn't so bad. he's not even a bad character imo since "top tier" fox vs yoshi to me was pretty equal

 

[FrozenHobo]

ok, i don't play yoshi too much anymore. i just always thought that if he used his side b it should go somewhere, but if its the general consensus that its fine as is then thats just as well.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

that was my idea frozen pop T_T.
Stop claiming my ****!
Imma SUE

 

[kupo15]

When did I say that I never said that? I have always had the stance that Melee requires more tech skill than Brawl.

Self-pwn ftw.

Here you go

Umm, Brawl+ takes very very very little tech skill, other than, say, teching. Anyone can pick up the game in a week and pwn. Anyone, with any character. Not just Fox. And owning "most people"? I doubt it :/

Brawl+ DOES require tech skill, just as much (more probably than vBrawl) and almost as much as in Melee.

Wing

B+ requires some technical skill, obviously we aren't playing the game with our minds. But to say that it has almost as much as Melee is ... hilarious. LOL


.

I never said B+ requires as much tech skill as in Melee, in fact I'm pretty sure I admitted that Melee DOES require more. However, to say that B+ requires little to none after the first week is completely wrong IMO. I still believe honing your AT will improve your game in a huge amount.

It's funny that you said B+ has almost as much tech skill as Melee in an earlier post, and then say you never did say it.

On a side note

Chain grabs DO exist. Have you ever played ICs? GG.

Also, just because you can buffer a perfect shield, does not make it an easy thing to do. The button has to be pressed within 2 frames or (1/30th of a second) of whatever attack you are defending against. In vBrawl it was 4 frames, so it is now twice as hard to do, and I know that many professional players spend a lot of time honing that in vBrawl (DSF and M2K just as a small example) even though it is much easier.

Fact: Brawl's engine doesn't run as fast nor as precise as melee's. You can tell this because Melee's powershield window is 3 frames (according to the Official everything thread but I think Magus said its 4 frames so I'm not sure)

Hmmm, that is an extra frame or two more than brawl yet brawl is 10x easier to power shield

In addition, DI, SDI, teching, spot dodging, air dodging etc. are all also tech skills that you can always improve upon.

Since the game is tons slower and more sloppy, DI is much easier. Spot dodging is currently overpowered in relation to melee making it super easy to use. Air dodging is just immensely easier to use without much effort given the fact that you can air dodge from a tumble, fast fall air dodge which covers the length of the entire stage until it auto cancels on the ground into an auto power shield. Its obvious much more powerful and easy to use than melee. These tech skills are much easier to perform in b+ than melee which makes them easier and faster to master.

SDI in particular is much more effective if you practice using it against every attack in the game since when you SDI into the weaker hitboxes of an attack, you can obviously survive for much longer. Since I'm sure you haven't mastered SDI against every attack in the game, even you, as godlike as you think you are, still have a lot to learn about tech skill.

DI is easy in this game combined with the powerful air dodge which makes me feel that in most cases, SDI hardly plays a factor.

In all honesty, it really can't be that important at all if top players can succeed without even owning the game. There is just no comparison in tech skill to Melee and Brawl/Brawl+.

Bingo. Quite sad.


Also, some other techs I forgot to mention before:
Harder power shielding
Light shieldiing
DIable lasers
Fast fallable projectiles (only some)
The cloud in yoshi's island
Mr. DI

And as said before. This game does not reward ATs except maybe RAR and DACUS. I could get really good at wingdashing (cries) and still not win. The best pit in JPN does nothing but spam and camp in vbrawl while us over here overcomplicate things with our silly ATs that really don't amount to much. All brawl takes is smart play and that will win over technique and flashy ATs

Self pwn ftw

Definitely

 

[FrozenHobo]

that was my idea frozen pop T_T.
Stop claiming my ****!
Imma SUE

i'm in ur topicz ninjaing ur ideaz!

 

[Deleted member]

Lmao...thank you Kupo. <3

 

[Revven]

this.
*****es

And most of us back hurr agree to some of that stuff. It'll just take some time to get it in there 'cause we gotta discuss it yo. I mean, I already KNEW Yoshi was pretty **** good, people just don't know how to play him so they think he "sucks" but in reality he doesn't. It's like that with a few other characters too.

D1 was doing pretty **** with Yoshi too if you didn't see.

 

[CountKaiser]

That brings up a god question, should we give brawl+ tech skill?

 

[cAm8ooo]

So whats the reasoning behind the ZSS buffs? Wasn't she an already(predicted to be) top 10 character?