Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[timothyung]

cAm8ooo, what you're saying is exactly the reason why that didn't happen.

 

[cAm8ooo]

cAm8ooo, what you're saying is exactly the reason why that didn't happen.

Which is exactly the reason i stated it.

 

[GHNeko]

How often does ANYONE use B-throw. I can't think of many character who actually have a good one besides DDD and maybe a few more.

Also @ tim- Getting rid of everyone's useless moves is just a waste of time. Who cares that some characters have moves that dont play a big part in their metagame? Why take the time to try to buff every characters useless moves and risk screwing up balance when you can just, you know, balance characters by playing off the traits and abilities that make them good. This project is already very time consuming and it would be a huge step BACKWARDS if we were to try and change every character. A small change can make a big difference.

luigi, Ness, D3, Ike, Shiek, Tlink, Wario, ICs, Wolf, Luigi, DK, Snake all use B-throws on a semi-normal basis at the LEAST.

And yes, getting rid of everyone's useless moves are a waste of time. That's why I said certain characters are bound to be more shallow than others, because the moves most used in their moveset make up for the uselessness of their useful moves (see Marth and Jiggz)

The thing about it though is that with Brawl+, if a group of people who main a specific character want to give use to a move to add to their metagame/ to their character's depth, sure. Let them, just let it be known that if they cant get a buff, their last result is a trade off, which is what alot of characters can only do now because alot of these characters are "good"

That and they need to really reason why the trade off should even be thought about in the first place (see Falco mains)

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Brawl+ needs more kill throws. >.> *random opinion*

Useless moves will always be there. Still doesn't stop grab release to a partner's Warlock Punch from being stupidly satisfying. Even granted that they have to be at about 150% for that to even come close to working.

 

[cAm8ooo]

luigi, Ness, D3, Ike, Shiek, Tlink, Wario, ICs, Wolf, Luigi, DK, Snake all use B-throws on a semi-normal basis at the LEAST.

Good is subjective as well. Their bthrows are useful though.

And yes, getting rid of everyone's useless moves are a waste of time. That's why I said certain characters are bound to be more shallow than others. :V

The thing about it though is that with Brawl+, if a group of people who main a specific character what to give use to a move to add to their metagame/ to their character's depth, sure. Let them, just let it be known that if they cant get a buff, their last result is a trade off, which is what alot of characters can only do now because alot of these characters are "good"

But dont most of those characters have throws that are at least a little more useful? edit: ehh.. B-throws usually are good killers atleast. Point proven. But still... their generally the worst throw, tied with upthrow

Also, i agree completely with the trade off thing. If you want to add more depth to your character then go for it. It makes the game a little more unique while (if done properly) doesn't mess with balancing.

Also, on a side note. I can't wait to try out Tink's new B-air. I've just been so busy lately do to being short handed at work. Ugh... when will people learn you can't just decide to stop showing up?

 

[GHNeko]

But dont most of those characters have throws that are at least a little more useful?

Also, i agree completely with the trade off thing. If you want to add more depth to your character then go for it. It makes the game a little more unique while (if done properly) doesn't mess with balancing.

Also, on a side note. I can't wait to try out Tink's new B-air. I've just been so busy lately do to being short handed at work. Ugh... when will people learn you can't just decide to stop showing up?

Some of those character's have overall more useful throws, but there are times where b-throw is really their best option.

look at it this way and answer me this.

Tell me which throw Ness has which is more useful at killing than Bthrow?

Tell me which throw does Wolf has that sets up better for Bairs?

Which throw does D3 have that does more damage than Bthrow?

You see where I am getting at?

A move becomes "useless" when all of its functions are overshadowed by other moves and there is never a time where its your best option during that situation against that character at that position on that stage at that percent and so on and so forth. Depth allows moves to not be useless and at least become situational enough that its not completely odd/far-fetched that you used that move.

Marth would have more depth if bthrow served some purpose another throw could fufill.

Mario's dtilt gained depth when it got buffed allowing it to combo into kill moves at high percents.

 

[Mattnumbers]

There really is no situation where using PK freeze is better than something else, besides sandbagging.

Edgeguarding? PK Thunder is way better, lasts longer, and not to mention PK Freeze actually helps them get back onstage

Forcing an Airdodge? People usually bring this up when people say PK Freeze is useless, but really PK thunder can force them to AD just as well, it can even Force them to AD and then hit them afterwards.

Any form of offense? PK freeze is so easy to dodge that it doesn't work for offense. Even if you do hit them you can't follow it with anything since they can attack as soon as they get out of their ice. Plus they take less damage while in the ice.

 

[GHNeko]

That's why the move is considered useless. :V

Find a way to make it at least situational, and offer up something of lucas in exchange. Form a platform as to why this trade off should be made. Explain it thoroughly and with detail and make your logic as solid as possible. Back your reasoning and desires with the voices of lucas mains (hopefully reputable people) and possibly other well known people, and continue pressing for it until it gets put in for at least testing. :V

Organize your presence and make your goal known to the community.

Do your research, do your testing, and see what works best. Dont ask for a change without researching it yourself. If you want to learn how to test, ask and continue asking until you learn how. conduct tests with lucas mains and use results that are agreed upon as the ideal, and add that to your platform. It's what the Sonic mains are doing now and they're getting positive results.

You want something, you work for it. Simple as that, but its easier said then done.

Need some help? Go ask someone whos gotten something some their character that they truly wanted (example Orca or iSpiN)

:V

 

[Mattnumbers]

I can do most of that, but I don't know how to code so in order to test stuff I need to have someone who can code stuff for me..........

 

[Shell]

I've taken a look at PK Freeze. It is not possible to completely change the hitbox of the move, so you can't change it's KBG / Angle.

I know it's a nearly useless move, but as it stands Lucas is well balanced character, probably high-mid or maybe low-high material, which is where we ideally want everyone.

Buffing a useless move is still a buff to the character as a whole, however, so if you think that you'd like me to take a look at reducing the wind-down on PK Freeze or changing its speed in some other aspect (remember, hitbox changes are not possible on this move), be prepared to suggest some nerf to pair it with.

 

[GHNeko]

I've taken a look at PK Freeze. It is not possible to completely change the hitbox of the move, so you can't change it's KBG / Angle.

I know it's a nearly useless move, but as it stands Lucas is well balanced character, probably high-mid or maybe low-high material, which is where we ideally want everyone.

Buffing a useless move is still a buff to the character as a whole, however, so if you think that you'd like me to take a look at reducing the wind-down on PK Freeze or changing its speed in some other aspect (remember, hitbox changes are not possible on this move), be prepared to suggest some nerf to pair it with.

Welp. That's why it's called a trade off mah boi. This is the depth that true warriors strive for. If Lucas mains want trade-offs for depths. Who are we to stop them? They know their characters, so they know what the can sacrifice without ruining their character. I know what I can nerf on Marth in order to get that Bair semi-spike.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

thanks to the guy who pointed out other characters who dont go into ff, but as said i dun like zelda cuz shes gettin mad shiz/fixes when nobody asked for it. people actually asked for the other stuff.
and please, dont give falcon some reflector crap. i always used him because he fought straight up, no weapons, no reflecting, no projectiles, just goes IN. it isn't manly at all to turn it around, its more manly to take it and just suck it up. (possibilities kirby is manly then?)

Welp. That's why it's called a trade off mah boi. This is the depth that true warriors strive for. If Lucas mains want trade-offs for depths. Who are we to stop them? They know their characters, so they know what the can sacrifice without ruining their character. I know what I can nerf on Marth in order to get that Bair semi-spike.

zelda, donkey kong, and others didn't trade off anything that i know of for their free fall crap. and imo..trade-offs isn't balancing at all. if lucas got it without trading off anything, as long as there isnt some broken tactic he can use to stall, or zero-death with ease i wouldnt care.

 

[thesage]

Lucas is fine and pk freeze is inferior to his other projectiles. If you want to make it viable, you have to modify the properties of the actual projectile, which is not possible now I think...

 

[Kuga]

About Throws?
Some thow just need more dmg,like Ike D-Throw,Ganon Back or Down Throw.These throw just dont make sense with the animations .
Another exemple was Charizard(already buffed)i mean,YOU TAKE FIRE IN YOUR FACE BI***

 

[Shell]

Increasing DMG will indirectly increase the KB. While I can't say off the top of my head how much, Ike and Ganon's D-throws are their primary combo throws, and thus could be hurt more than helped by an increase in DMG / KB. Regardless, I think those changes would be unnecessary anyways.

This wasn't really an issue for Rawrizard because his D-throw already had too much KB to be much of a useful combo set up and too little to be a good kill move.

 

[_Yes!_]

I think Ike's dthrow does 6% and ganon's does 7%...

I'm really bored, not a nerd...

 

[Kuga]

Increasing DMG will indirectly increase the KB. While I can't say off the top of my head how much, Ike and Ganon's D-throws are their primary combo throws, and thus could be hurt more than helped by an increase in DMG / KB. Regardless, I think those changes would be unnecessary anyways.

This wasn't really an issue for Rawrizard because his D-throw already had too much KB to be much of a useful combo set up and too little to be a good kill move.

It was just a example,the dmg might be better when they can adjust Throws KB,and then they can readjust the KB,when the dmg is incrassed.

 

[leafgreen386]

Increasing DMG will indirectly increase the KB. While I can't say off the top of my head how much, Ike and Ganon's D-throws are their primary combo throws, and thus could be hurt more than helped by an increase in DMG / KB. Regardless, I think those changes would be unnecessary anyways.

This wasn't really an issue for Rawrizard because his D-throw already had too much KB to be much of a useful combo set up and too little to be a good kill move.

The hitbox edited on charizard's dthrow had no KB. It occurs before the throw takes place.

 

[Shell]

Ah, thank you for clearing that up.

 

[jalued]

any way that links upthrow could have less end lag? it doesnt combo into anything even at 0% atm and is nearly useless imo

 

[Revven]

zelda, donkey kong, and others didn't trade off anything that i know of for their free fall crap. and imo..trade-offs isn't balancing at all. if lucas got it without trading off anything, as long as there isnt some broken tactic he can use to stall, or zero-death with ease i wouldnt care.

It depends on what you trade off more or less. DK doesn't need to trade anything off for the no fall special neutral B BECAUSE it doesn't really make it any better than before. No fall special on Donkey Punch was asked for, by me, because it doesn't much at all for DK. It just makes it less stupid when you use it to finish a combo (and frankly, you won't be seeing Donkey Punch > into anything because likely you've used your second jump already to use the Donkey Punch and or you can't land fast enough to follow-up).

Din's Fire, I'm not really too caring of, I don't even see the honest need to complain about it. It's NOT a good projectile close up, onstage. It's an alright edgeguard but, most ADs go through it still even with the changes to the AD. And I doubt you'll be seeing many Zeldas trying to do Din's Fire aiming at the edgeguarder while recovering, it just would be silly because the move takes forever and year to get to that ledge. It would leave her vulnerable.

I want to say it makes the move less stupid like DK's but, it DOES make it better in some ways. However, it's not like Zelda has become a super God with the fixes (again, let me point you to this video that shows what Ryoko was trying to fix) to her Fsmash and Usmash and she can only really combo off of Usmash (which is 2gud) while her tilts and shiz were mediocre (and frankly, as far as I know, still kinda are even with the changes made to them).

Video of what Ryoko was/is trying to fix and not let happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brzSqXqwZjg

Silly Fox...

Again, if you have serious complaints about Zelda, talk to Ryoko about it. I'm sure he can give you some valid reasons for the Usmash and Fsmash changes. He didn't have much to do with the Din's Fire change or any of the other changes (ZELDA MAINS ASKED FOR DIN'S FIRE BTW! However, it was SEVERAL MONTHS BEFORE WE COULD ACTUALLY DO IT!)

 

[Mattnumbers]

I've been hearing a lot of talk about how Mario is bad right now, and after listening to it I agree. It's like he's a worse Luigi that can edgeguard. Are you guys planning on buffing Mario?

 

[Revven]

I've been hearing a lot of talk about how Mario is bad right now, and after listening to it I agree. It's like he's a worse Luigi that can edgeguard. Are you guys planning on buffing Mario?

Mario... bad? LOLNO.

Mario has a lot of combos, gimps real well, has amazing edgeguarding now, and pretty much ***** a lot of people (except people who have range on him i.e Marth). He is outstanding for the character type he is, imo, he is not terrible. He is beyond perfect once we put Uair back at its original angle (or change it to a diff. angle to make it even better than the original but, we'll see).

 

[Mattnumbers]

I was skeptical at first. But when I think about it, Luigi is pretty much better at everything except edgeguarding. Or is he? I'm not calling for buffs mind you I just want to know what the WBR's opinion is.

I view gimping and edgeguarding as the same thing really. Mario is better at those, but Luigi can kill better, combo better, break combo's better, and recover better than Mario.

 

[Revven]

I was skeptical at first. But when I think about it, Luigi is pretty much better at everything except edgeguarding. Or is he? I'm not calling for buffs mind you I just want to know what the WBR's opinion is.

Most of us feel Mario doesn't need anymore changes at all (even though TheCape keeps trying to do things for Mario, just testing stuff out, we mostly turn them down because again, Mario doesn't need it). The Uair angle was to test and see how it would do and most people feel it's not as good as the original angle.

Mario is pretty much high mid or low high right now, IMO. Def. not terrible.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I have to agree on the Mario thing. He's definitely a solid, effective fighter that can hold his own against the majority of the cast. His biggest weakness is range, but if he gets close to you he's an absolute beast with a combo game I would argue is in the top 10 in Brawl+. Add in his Cape and FLUDD and you have one very nasty Italian to deal with.

 

[Wingflier]

Dude I need some people to teach me how to use his water gun correctly. Everytime someone goes off the edge, I always find it more useful and effective to try for a meteor smash (not to mention awesome when it connects.)

Does anyone have any B+ vids of some good Mario or Squirtle water gun usage?

Wing

 

[Jimbo_G]

Dude I need some people to teach me how to use his water gun correctly. Everytime someone goes off the edge, I always find it more useful and effective to try for a meteor smash (not to mention awesome when it connects.)

Does anyone have any B+ vids of some good Mario or Squirtle water gun usage?

Wing

Ask around the Mario+ and Squirtle+ forums. Also, Youtube is your friend. =3

 

[GHNeko]

Mario is solid mid tier imo. High mid just to be biased towards him.

The only things I want on him to make him solid for the rest of B+ until Gold is for his jab to hit up (ala Link second jab) and for an increase on his grab range (ffffffffff) and bring his uair back to its original angle as it combos waaay more than the new angle does. :V

 

[Jimbo_G]

Yes, a little extra grab range would be MUCH appreciated, but beyond that Mario is about as Gold as he can be without making major changes. At least, IMHO.

 

[Wingflier]

I gotta agree, Mario's grab range is like non-existent. Past that, he is amazing...

But I do have to agree with the OP's point, Luigi is really powerful, maybe even too much so. But you guys already knew that.

Wing

 

[Plum]

I think we all know why Luigi is better than Mario... Nair XD

In a side by side comparison between the two, they both have very solid combo games, Mario can gimp while Luigi has earlier direct kill power, Mario's fireball is much better, and Luigi has his freakish Nair. (Obviously the differences are much deeper than just that, but IMO those are the key differences.)

Overall Luigi is certainly better because he can escape combos so well, though Mario does still outperform Luigi depending on the matchup. His ability to gimp is so amazing; FLUDD, Cape, Fireball, a pseudo WoP of Bairs and his Fair = too good.

 

[Wingflier]

Like has been mentioned on many occasions before, Luigi's problem is lack of hitstun. He seems so dramatically unaffected by it that it's really kind of mysterious.

If it wasn't for that I would think them almost equal in power.

edit: Everytime someone meteor smashes with with Mario's F-air, god makes a kitten.

 

[goodoldganon]

There is no way Mario's grab range is worse then Ganon's standing grab...

 

[Shell]

Mario's is only slightly worse. It just seems like Ganon's is worse because he's a large character -- relative to the size of his body (and thus expected range) he has a smaller grab range compared to the ratio of Mario's size to range, if that makes sense.

However, as we cannot edit grab ranges right now, this does not pertain to anything we have done or will do in a nightly, so let's continue this in the competitive discussion thread if necessary.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

To me, Peach is still lacking depth. Really, all of her damage racking and killing still comes too often from dair combos. I wouldn't really know how to fix it...maybe just make her more useless moves less useless? Particularly dtilt. The meteor hitbox really needs to be fixed..i would just make most of the animation a meteor, just to give peach the possibility of meteoring people. ...Up throw really needs some use, too. The best thing to do with it would probably be to lessen the ending lag, so peach can jump up and possibly aerial someone before they can airdodge.

 

[Kataefi]

Does anyone know when the pal nightly will be released at all? I'm eager for the new changes =D

 

[ToxiCrow]

i'm really excited for the DJC on Ness. i cant wait
DJC dairs will be sexy again

 

[Revven]

Does anyone know when the pal nightly will be released at all? I'm eager for the new changes =D

PK is currently in Greece for the week, he won't be back until closer to the end of this week I assume.

 

[XSilvenX]

Marth wants his up-b back....it's not even a KO move anymore it's more like a mediocre super high risk gtfo move that's has a severely imbalanced risk/reward ratio.

I know the regular upb knockback was crazy..but the way it's nerfed now it's not worth doing....ever

It's terrible. Look at the way it is now, look at it before and put it in the middle, how about that? I mean, so that it's actually worth using again.

Discuss...

i'm really excited for the DJC on Ness. i cant wait
DJC dairs will be sexy again

I got accustomed to DJ fairs already...DJC would change Ness forever, I prob won't even wanna play him anymore if that happens. It also kills his 2nd jump recovery making his recovery a lot worse and forcing him to upb recover (BAD) a lot more since doing a 2nd jump with no fair/nair/uair is obvious as hell. You really want DJC?