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[CountKaiser]

I got accustomed to DJ fairs already...DJC would change Ness forever, I prob won't even wanna play him anymore if that happens. It also kills his 2nd jump recovery making his recovery a lot worse and forcing him to upb recover (BAD) a lot more since doing a 2nd jump with no fair/nair/uair is obvious as hell. You really want DJC?

You do realize that the new DJC would still allow rising aerials, right?

 

[Plum]

Is it literally a DJC or rather producing the effect of a DJC?

As much as DJC would probably improve his combo game, it is going to be hurting him a lot in other aspects. Like Silven said, his recovery is bad enough as it is, and DJC is going to hurt it even more.

I also liked the rising aerials, I wouldn't want to see them go. I always felt that if Ness did need a revamp that the rising aerials should be reworked rather a DJC.

Though if the DJC code still allows him to rise with an aerial if the player wants then that would be amazing, while not harming his already crap recovery and preserving what he can already do with rising aerials.

Edit:

You do realize that the new DJC would still allow rising aerials, right?

Anyone else want SWF to have some sort of realtime system of allowing you to view comments posted while you are typing your own comment?
Good to hear. In that case, I give my support for Ness having DJC
Just don't let the Lucas mains convince you to give it to him XD (Yoshi could be debatable but making Ness unique in that aspect would be great IMO)

 

[ToxiCrow]

I got accustomed to DJ fairs already...DJC would change Ness forever, I prob won't even wanna play him anymore if that happens. It also kills his 2nd jump recovery making his recovery a lot worse and forcing him to upb recover (BAD) a lot more since doing a 2nd jump with no fair/nair/uair is obvious as hell. You really want DJC?

yeah i really want it because its not going to be like the DJC from the previous games

I am pretty sure it goes something like this.

If you want to DJC, you hold jump when you aerial, else....don't. And no, it won't act like lucario's dair exactly.

u can still do rising aerials
it'll take some getting used to i think, but it'd be a great addition to Ness's gameplay

EDIT: ninja'd

Lucas doesnt need DJC. not at all. he combo's easily, so there would be no point in having it

 

[XSilvenX]

You do realize that the new DJC would still allow rising aerials, right?

Ah, kk I didn't know. If rising aerials is fine then I have no gripe. I'll just wait and see how it's fully implemented then..

As for the Marth up-b issue, any comments anyone? Any real Marth players here..at all?

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I missed a lot being offline.

It's nice that Snake's C4 detonates earlier to compensate for the heavier gravity.

How did you increase the size of D3's nair hotbox? LOL. I understand though. He needed it.

I think Yoshi could use the new DJC like Ness.

 

[_Yes!_]

Silven's right about marth's upB. The fact that vex couldn't kill a SQUIRTLE aka one of the lightest characters in the game with upB means it got nerfed way too hard.

 

[GHNeko]

...NOW PEOPLE ARE SAYING STUFF? I've been saying this for a while now but no one listens becase "ur a marth main neko" and "marf deserves nerfs"

:|

I've asked to bring it back up to 13% and allow it to kill at 120%+ percents with Bad DI.

Would this be too much to ask?

 

[bajisci]

i completely agree up b was nerfed WAY to hard but then again i think marth is overrated -_-

120% may be a bit low -_-

 

[Mattnumbers]

Well, GHNeko, you would need a nerf for that since Marth is a VERY good character already. You said it yourself that good characters should always have nerfs with their buffs.

 

[shanus]

Marth wants his up-b back....it's not even a KO move anymore it's more like a mediocre super high risk gtfo move that's has a severely imbalanced risk/reward ratio.

I know the regular upb knockback was crazy..but the way it's nerfed now it's not worth doing....ever

It's terrible. Look at the way it is now, look at it before and put it in the middle, how about that? I mean, so that it's actually worth using again.

Discuss...



I got accustomed to DJ fairs already...DJC would change Ness forever, I prob won't even wanna play him anymore if that happens. It also kills his 2nd jump recovery making his recovery a lot worse and forcing him to upb recover (BAD) a lot more since doing a 2nd jump with no fair/nair/uair is obvious as hell. You really want DJC?

The way I make it, it won't kill his recovery

I've made a built in frame-window timer for it, how pro is that!

So if you mash DJ, earlier on itll DJC, otherwise, it'll work. pretty smexy, imo

 

[Mattnumbers]

Shanus when are you going to let us use it though? I'm very anxious for it

 

[bajisci]

Well, GHNeko, you would need a nerf for that since Marth is a VERY good character already. You said it yourself that good characters should always have nerfs with their buffs.

making his up b not terrible wont break him -_-

 

[Mattnumbers]

It would still be a buff. Marth is already easily in the top ten, he doesn't need buffs of any kind unless you nerf him just as much.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

It's not a buff. It's simply repealing an over-nerf.

Completely different.

 

[GHNeko]

Well, GHNeko, you would need a nerf for that since Marth is a VERY good character already. You said it yourself that good characters should always have nerfs with their buffs.

The thing is the move was over nerfed from original intents. :V

As was a whole bunch of Marth's moves which is why they had to fix him.


And God **** it, Dancing Blade Down 4 is STILL UNSAFE ON HIT. For crying out loud, how many times is it going to take to fix this?

 

[cAm8ooo]

Well, GHNeko, you would need a nerf for that since Marth is a VERY good character already. You said it yourself that good characters should always have nerfs with their buffs.

Lol. That only works when you want a buff. I wouldnt call something being over nerfed and wanting it nerfed less a buff. That's like saying, "oops, we accidently made bowsers fsmash not kill till 140. If you want us to go back and rework the nerf then were gonna have to nerf something else too."

Yea.... that makes alot of sense.


Edit: super ninja'd

 

[Plum]

It would still be a buff. Marth is already easily in the top ten, he doesn't need buffs of any kind unless you nerf him just as much.

It's not really a buff as much as it is lessening the degree of a nerf.

120 with bad DI is perfectly fine with me.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

could someone please rationalize the change on charizard's fair? the fact that it's extremely horizontal, pretty low range for how laggy it is and the kind of character charizard is, and overall crappier than it was before off stage, i don't see how it justified such a change. it was used for gimping; not really an approach move, it doesn't cover nearly enough area to do that; now it has a ness fair kind of effect to it, and the gimp hitbox is much harder to land because the new hitboxes cover it.

 

[Mattnumbers]

But think of it this way:

WITH the overnerf, Marth is STILL a great character.

If you make the nerf less, Marth becomes better.

This means Marth just got buffed.

The bowser thing doesn't make sense because bowser isn't an already really really good, top ten character.

Now I'm not against making the move better, I just think something else should be nerfed in order to not make Marth even better than his is currently.

 

[shanus]

The thing is the move was over nerfed from original intents. :V

As was a whole bunch of Marth's moves which is why they had to fix him.


And God **** it, Dancing Blade Down 4 is STILL UNSAFE ON HIT. For crying out loud, how many times is it going to take to fix this?

How about you fix it then?


Matt, the final change to make the DJC cancel vertical momentum isn't installed yet. It requires some work with the help of Almas, but that has to wait till Tuesday, minimum due to his exams.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ok, can't wait till It's released. Is there going to be a different nightly in the meantime?

 

[GHNeko]

As I've said in the WBR, I only find damage nerfs are the only appropriate kind of nerf for marth at this point because he doesn't have many reliable kill moves and touching the speed of his moves damages his character.

But the thing with damage nerfs is that when you reduce its output, you should raise its KB to compensate. That was never done for his Up B, which is the problem with it.

Its use has been skewed to the point where the risk >>> reward. There have been times where I used the move 100% correctly at the right time, and I was still punished because of the lack of KB. If that's the case, why would I even use the move until high percents where I know they cant reach me in time?

It dwindles down Marth's tactics and it makes him more of a shallow character.

If you want a nerf, nerf something that hasnt been nerfed before in damage out put and compensate the KB so the move works the same way.

lol dtilt

 

[CountKaiser]

Oh Shanus, did you et te new fair for Ness that I sent you?

Giza suggested lowering the angle to 30 and making the hitbox bigger, just s you know. Worth looking into, I guess.

 

[Plum]

But think of it this way:

WITH the overnerf, Marth is STILL a great character.

If you make the nerf less, Marth becomes better.

This means Marth just got buffed.

The bowser thing doesn't make sense because bowser isn't an already really really good, top ten character.

Now I'm not against making the move better, I just think something else should be nerfed in order to not make Marth even better than his is currently.

I don't think it is really a buff at all.

Technically it is a buff from the current Marth, but it is just correcting something that was hurt a bit too hard.

A buff in the more applied use would be like giving Bair or Ftilt a solid use in his moveset. Something like that would outright make him a better character, so yes a tradeoff would be needed to keep him at his current level just with more depth.

IMO this is just giving a move its proper use back though still weaker from its original version; it isn't going to necessarily instantly make Marth better by any means like giving an already useless move a use.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

If it doesn't kill at 120% with bad DI, then it was made almost unusable from a previously decent/good move and needs to be fixed.

Marth is good, but he's not so broken good that we need to take his good moves away. That would just make him spam fair more. D:

 

[Shell]

People, buffing a useless move is a buff to the overall character. There's no denying it or using logic to classify it as something else.

There is no difference between buffing the Up-B to be a kill move and buffing the use of his Bair.

We all agreed that buffing a useless move (Freeze) for Lucas (High-mid to low-highish) was unnecessary, and I can't see why buffing one of the top characters in the game would be any different.

We're discussing this in the WBR.

 

[GHNeko]

I've already said I'd lower the damage output on other moves as long as KB was compensated to make Up B useful again. :V

But that's my opinion and I'm not going to single-handily change Marth without some sort of talk with Spammer or something. :V

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Luigi's UpB was fixed from an over-nerf. Ivy's Razor Leafs were fixed from an over-nerf.

Why is Marth's UpB any different, out of curiosity?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Marth right now is considered to be one of the best characters in the game, Ivysaur is not.

The reason Luigi was less nerfed was because what they thought was a combo that was way too good (Dthrow -> UpB) turned out not to be, besides that I'm not sure because he is a good character too (IMO Marth is better though, even though I use Luigi)

 

[CountKaiser]

Because Marth is teh borken, lolololol.

Bad grammar aside, I would suspect that it's due to bias.

 

[stingers]

matt both of us use Lucas and Luigi? o.o

who else do you use?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Lucas, Luigi, and Ness are my top 3

Besides that I use Ganondorf, Link, and Bowser, but those are minor.

 

[XSilvenX]

Are you guys forgetting that you're not really buffing Marth, you're just fixing an over-nerf.

In vBrawl Marth's point blank upb was ridiculous...understandably you guys wanted it nerfed but it was nerfed to the point where doing a point blank up-b is not worth it anymore because of the risk involved (if you miss that's a free charged w.e from any character) and the fact that it's not rewarding.

Making it kill at a reasonable percent is not gonna make Marth broken, or even that much better imo it's just gonna give him a good (yet risky) tool to use to punish poor spacing. I don't even see why a tradeoff is needed because it's not like the move is being buffed..once again it's still a nerf (from vbrawl).

I just did some testing and a point black up-b at 160% can't kill Ivysaur from the middle of Battlefield. Talk about lolworthy...what's the point of attempting the move anymore? No point really because at that point I might as well just try to kill with any other move (tippered) cuz upb is garbage and not worth the risk. It's sort of like Rest, except of course the risk/reward ratio makes sense since it's an extremely risky move but it does insane damage. That's what Marth's upb is supposed to be really..but you guys took it away completely with the nerf. I don't mind a nerf from vbrawl because it was definitely crazy but it's useless in it's current form.


Btw please stay away from the" Marth is one of the best chars in the game" argument..how do you even know that with such limited insight and experience against the rest of the cast? Not to mention a lot of the beast players haven't even gotten their hands on Brawl+ yet so you can't possibly know who's good and who's not. As of now imo Marth is definitely "good" but saying he's one of the best to excuse the crappy upb he has is a little too subjective for me. If it was set in stone that Marth was top or something then I'd say "ok maybe he's fine without it" but at the moment it's not and I'm almost certain he isn't because he gets wrecked by many characters in my experience, but then again this is Brawl+ so that argument isn't even valid anymore...

 

[Mattnumbers]

Are you guys forgetting that you're not really buffing Marth, you're just fixing an over-nerf.

Are you forgetting that if you make a move better than it was in it's previous state, that's called buffing the move? I mean really, It doesn't matter if it was already nerfed. Making it better from that point is a buff to the character with the nerfed move, and Marth with a nerfed upB was still really really good.

Either learn to never use the move offensively or find some nerf so it's a tradeoff.

EDIT: Marth hasn't changed that much is the last couple months IIRC, and it didn't take that long in Vbrawl to tell who would be really good. Sure they didn't know the orders but they pretty much could tell who was really good.

 

[bajisci]

Btw please stay away from the" Marth is one of the best chars in the game" argument..how do you even know that with such limited insight and experience against the rest of the cast? Not to mention a lot of the beast players haven't even gotten their hands on Brawl+ yet so you can't possibly know who's good and who's not. As of now imo Marth is definitely "good" but saying he's one of the best to excuse the crappy upb he has is a little too subjective for me. If it was set in stone that Marth was top or something then I'd say "ok maybe he's fine without it" but at the moment it's not and I'm almost certain he isn't because he gets wrecked by many characters in my experience, but then again this is Brawl+ so that argument isn't even valid anymore...[/B]

i could not agree more, imo marth is very overrated and fixing up-b will not be even close to breaking him but will just fix a mistake =/

 

[stingers]

marth IS crazy...and I've played some of those "top players" you're talking about and Marth is the best in the game afaic. this up b nerf is still too extreme, however.

 

[XSilvenX]

Are you forgetting that if you make a move better than it was in it's previous state, that's called buffing the move? I mean really, It doesn't matter if it was already nerfed. Making it better from that point is a buff to the character with the nerfed move, and Marth with a nerfed upB was still really really good.

Either learn to never use the move offensively or find some nerf so it's a tradeoff.

You gotta be kidding me. So if they overnerfed Metaknight's Fsmash to the point where it was useless and people sorta "forgot" about it for a few weeks and I came back and said MK needs his fsmash back you're gonna run that same argument to me because he's good without it? Man I'm so glad people like you aren't in the backroom.

Either learn to never use the move offensively or find some nerf so it's a tradeoff.

That's truly gold right there...so let's take away a viable move from the character because he's "good without it" which of course is your opinion and heavily biased...I mean judging from the characters you play you probably get wrecked by Marths all day huh? Is that why you think he's so good? I just wanna know exactly where this "marth is good without it" is coming from? Do you happen to play him? Do you know a friend that plays him at least..? I don't get it...please tell me where your experience from Marth comes from.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Someones getting a bit desperate when they resort to insulting me and using sarcastic comments.

Yes to your first part, If MK was still a great character without his Fsmash and had a variety of options, I would support keeping the nerf, although I would also support nerfing another part as a tradeoff of buffing it in order to expand his metagame.

I don't think this should continue in this thread, It's spammy and pointless since neither of us will change their mind.

 

[goodoldganon]

Marth's Up-b concern will be discussed and possibly addressed. I wish more people would speak up about THIS kind of feedback and less about random useless 'buff this move' posts. We want feedback critiquing our set, not just accepting everything and asking for more. Even if we don't readjust the Up-b, this kind of feedback is a thousand times more helpful and more to the point of the topic. Either way, can we move away from Marth's Up-b now?

Also, Silven... *slap* PLAY NICE!!!

 

[stingers]

How come whenever someone brings up Kirby's Bair, it's always ignored? It's seriously too good...I know you nerfed Kirby's Fsmash and all but that's not really what was wrong with Kirby. His Fsmash was fine how it was before, it's that his Bair is stupidly broken.