Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[cAm8ooo]

Cam, I literally did Bair and landed on the ground it the middle of it, it has virtually no lag.

Explain to me this list then. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169171


Then go and SH FF a fair. Then change Kirby's SH to .8 and do the same. Notice the big difference.
I dont know if B-air will have the same effect. I havn't tested it. It may naturally have no lag. Just throwing it out there for testing purposes

 

[HeroPenguin]

6-10 Feedback (I was at a graduation party last weekend with about half a dozen other brawlers, so this should be a bit better than my usual fare)

Bowser and Charizard's flamethrowers, I confess did not seem to make that big of a difference. I noticed no great change to how much time people spent engulfed in the flames (Charizard's in particular saw great use, as one of the players mains Charizard)

Charizard's down throw had me up in arms when looking at the patch notes, but in play, it actually felt right. Good change.

Dedede Nair and stars I didn't notice anything wrong with, which implies to me that they're doing EXACTLY what they were intended to do, which is a plus. (Dedede was mained)

Ganon's Bair is still good, but I miss the darkness. XD Fine tweak, imo.

Mario's Uair seemed to juggle fine, but it did seem like an oddly steep angle. Mario was mained and drew no complaints from his player, so I'm not sure how viable this comment is.

Ness changes: I actually really like the lower short hop and the buffed Fair. made his approaches much easier and they just felt a little more beefy. I have reservations about making his Fair too good, since at this point it seems to be his number 1 bread and butter move (*I* main Ness, and played him the majority of the past two days).

Also, I rejoice at the faster Dair, but I also noticed the sourspot hitting much more often than before. In fact, I hadn't even known there WAS a sourspot on the move until this weekend, where it showed up multiple times. Making that less prevalent may be a good idea, but I'd like to play with it more before passing final judgment.

Samus's Usmash didn't seem to be linking all that well. More often, the first hit would connect, but the rest would whiff. Maybe decrease the size of the first hitbox and raise the rest? Shanus says that he's worked extensively on this, so I won't raise a fuss about it but to say that it still could use more work, I think.

Wolf's sideB and upB were both well received. sideB hitting like a knee resulted in several KOs, as did the upB in juggle pursuits. upB will probably be less dangerous once its viability as a threat off the top is proper instinct, but both are great.

Snake's C4 was not used extensively, but the sped up detonation is by no means broken. I approve of the change.

Also commenting on 6-3 changes since I did not get on this thread between the two nightlies going up:

Bowser's hitbox mods are strange. His uptilt has enough range to hit a character a full two levels above him (using the stage creator to value levels. Test: one solid block below an empty space below one pass-through platform [which sits against the top border of the second level]), yet cannot it most characters when standing directly in front of him. Not sure about the extent of his Usmash. These changes are nice, but I'm not altogether convinced that they fix him as a whole. More testing.

Zelda's fsmash and usmash tweaks are good. Both moves work reliably now, and usmash seemed to be less spamtastic, so that's a definite plus. Her nair seemed oddly beefy though. It killed on several occasions, IIRC.

Ike's sideB was working beautifully. Its viability for recovery was not put to much use, though, which makes me wonder if the buff is truly necessary. I didn't see anyone go after Ike in the air when he was recovering from an area where he would use sideB. I can't imagine many situations where it would be really possible, let alone intelligent to do so.

Regarding other discussion in the thread, I am intrigued by the Ness DJC, and am curious if his fsmash buff is still being considered. I'm excited to see thesage's changes completed.

Kirby's Bair always struck me as weirdly beefy, but I feel that way about numerous Bairs, so it may be bias creeping through. As a good kill move, I don't think it's out of scope to increase its after hitbox lag to make it more punishable. ESPECIALLY if it has nonexistent landing lag as Matt says it does, which means that it'll only be legitimately punishable in the air, after badly failed spacing and/or failure to react to a preemptive air dodge.

I support Kirby's fsmash nerf on the grounds of it STILL being a worthwhile kill move that has an incredible reach, a moving hitbox, a hitbox that lasts long enough to punish a spotdodge all by itself, and by having a hitbox that is the size of Kirby and his gigantic stretching foot.

As a final point, I pose a question: Is Olimar being looked at? In particular, his usmash and dsmash seem to be absurdly difficult to punish considering their reach and power, and due to their low lag, they can be used back to back to shut down most punishment options I can think of if the player is on guard. Unless I'm missing something in the counter, this seems like something that should be looked at. (Another player in my circle mains Olimar, so I see this a lot.)

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

yeah, you guys actually took what i said into consideration. lol, i played last sunday, and ness' shorthop is like a DJC and falcon got his dair spike stuff. go me.
although, is it possible or even worked on to edit grabs/projectiles? idk how you guys go about finding that stuff out but that is what i think needs to be worked out.

 

[goodoldganon]

yeah, you guys actually took what i said into consideration. lol, i played last sunday, and ness' shorthop is like a DJC and falcon got his dair spike stuff. go me.
although, is it possible or even worked on to edit grabs/projectiles? idk how you guys go about finding that stuff out but that is what i think needs to be worked out.

Projectiles are editable, it's just a huge pain to find the ID. Some of them are also really finicky and it's tough to get the edit to work. We still can't edit grab boxes and their knockback

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Projectiles are editable, it's just a huge pain to find the ID. Some of them are also really finicky and it's tough to get the edit to work. We still can't edit grab boxes and their knockback

then how about pivot grabs/dash grabs for characters like TL/link/etc
i noticed their standing grab is way faster than their dash/pivot grabs

 

[goodoldganon]

then how about pivot grabs/dash grabs for characters like TL/link/etc
i noticed their standing grab is way faster than their dash/pivot grabs

We can edit their speed, I'm sorry I forgot to mention that. We can't edit anything else with grabs except speed and we could probably replace grabs with other grabs. Like say make Falcon's standing grab always his pivot grab.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

We can edit their speed, I'm sorry I forgot to mention that. We can't edit anything else with grabs except speed and we could probably replace grabs with other grabs. Like say make Falcon's standing grab always his pivot grab.

then why arent tether grabs sped up when they pivot/dash?
just curious.

 

[goodoldganon]

then why arent tether grabs sped up when they pivot/dash?
just curious.

I've always wondered myself...

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

lol, ok, i think tl's/link's bombs should blow up faster. link's should blow up faster than tl's if it is possible to implement something like that. im going to bed. gniteee

 

[Blank Mauser]

I have no idea the reason for this talk of Kirby nerfs. His bair doesn't need lag, hes floaty and throws his feet out to get grabbed when he does it. Obviously if you space it right its a good move, but being a floaty he simply does not need lag on it. What are the applications that people are using to deem it worthy of nerfing? Considering Kirby is not overpowered in the least.

I still don't like the fsmash nerf either. Decreasing the gap between Fsmash and Bair is just wrong, when their were perfectly fine situations for both. Besides that, Kirby is just not worth targeting. The Nair change is hardly useful either.

People seem to think light, floaty characters that combo obviously equal ace of all trades for some reason. Theres still the part about bad range compared to others, less ups in terms of kill setups, and the fact there are just overall better characters that just simply aren't as safe as say Kirby or Squirtle, which is the point of their characters. They actually do have tradeoffs for their comfort, so I don't see why people overestimate it. They don't need nerfs at all.

 

[GHNeko]

tbh, I think pivot grabs should be sped up, but dash grabs left alone to encourage the use of DC Grabs.

Also, is it just me...or do dash grabs come out later than standing grabs. >_>

 

[Blank Mauser]

Honestly theres nothing wrong with dash grabs having better range/speed though. They're way more punishable so they could have something over standing/DC grabs.

 

[GHNeko]

Agreed. Which is why I asked if it was just me or did dash grabs come out later than standing grabs.

I also want to add a modified version of JC grabs, in which if the user misses, he suffers more lag than a standing grab, but less than a dash. :V

 

[Blank Mauser]

Agreed. Which is why I asked if it was just me or did dash grabs come out later than standing grabs.

I also want to add a modified version of JC grabs, in which if the user misses, he suffers more lag than a standing grab, but less than a dash. :V

Now thats just excessive. :v

I honestly wish pivot grabs could gain their usefulness back. With the addition of dash dancing it kind of ruins their applications, in fact you really have to try to incorporate pivot grabs and its hardly ever efficient to use them.

Now the better option is the literal pivot grab, in which you pivot into a standing grab lawl.

 

[GHNeko]

Not really excessive because it gives players grab more options during an initial dash rather than just a running grab (which really, DC grabs aren't good for characters with long initial dashes)

Pivot grabs are used less because the inputs required for them are iffy due to dash dancing, were as the lack of DDing allows the inputs to be extremely lenient. There have been plenty of times I've been wanting to pivot grab but cant because of the strict input due to the dash dancing system.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Not really excessive because it gives players grab more options during an initial dash rather than just a running grab (which really, DC grabs aren't good for characters with long initial dashes)

Pivot grabs are used less because the inputs required for them are iffy due to dash dancing, were as the lack of DDing allows the inputs to be extremely lenient. There have been plenty of times I've been wanting to pivot grab but cant because of the strict input due to the dash dancing system.

Can't you just shield during a dash dance and then shieldgrab? And theres also pivot grabbing in the literal sense of the term.

Its not just the inputs, you have to go into a full run before you can do one now, which sucks. Theres pivot grabs in the literal sense of the word, pivot into grab, but im not sure its the same kind of range.

 

[GHNeko]

The frames it costs to shield then do a shield grab make the tactic not so good in such a frame intensive game, that and sometimes you roll instead of grab which can put you in a worse position than your opponent was originally in.

Also, you dont have to go into a full run to pivot grab. I've done it during an initial dash, but the timing/inputs are just stupid.

 

[Blank Mauser]

But that wouldn't really be the pivot grab would it? That would just be pivoting into a grab.

These terms are lame lol.

 

[stingers]

There's a Pivot Grab, and a True Pivot Grab.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

...you roll when you try to pivot grab? that's..scrubby.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Ok, I finally played some B+ after a long long hiatus, and here are some impressions.

The good
Charizard is freaking beast. He's an amazing mid range camper now with fair and rock smash. For some reason rock smash seems ridiculous against low priority characters like Falcon - It just ***** his approach. I don't think you guys touched it though, right? Against characters like Fox and Marth with decent speed and decent priority, Chari still has a hard time though. Utilt and uair seem like decent combo starters, but I didn't abuse them too much so I'm not sure how legit that is. Dtilt on the edge can set up the spike nicely. UpB is a nice high-risk kill move. Glide still sucks, but I don't think you guys were going to touch that either if I recall (he doesn't need it now anyway). Overall, this is the way Chari should have felt when the game came out. Bravo.

Ivy is also beast, but I knew that from before. You can double razorleaf to ftilt for a nice ground combo.

Lucario upB seems balanced. It has a lot of utility if used smartly, but can get you in trouble as well.

DDD feels good. Jab can actually tick now, and the dair combos are great. I wish I could have landed a jet hammer to see how that felt, but it's hitbox is still pretty homo.

My opponent said Bowser felt right when he played him, so I guess all is well there.

Ganon's upB is thankfully a lot safer now. Choke is awesome as expected. My opponent was kinda disappointed to see Ganon get the downB return and not CF, but I guess Ganon actually needed it...

The bad
There still seems to be some ridiculous upB magnetism going on with the ledge. I think this also fuels the effect of hitting someone out of the upB only to have them snap when they should have received the knock back. I know there was a debate on that back in the day, and I don't recall the outcome, but it seems stupid to me.

Ness and Lucas still seem to get ***** by the FD ledges (right side only?)

I think someone above mentioned this: turn grabbing often results in a roll.

Samus is a lot better, but I'd still like to see the bomb improvement. Her slow floaty butt needs it to augment the keep away game I think.

 

[GHNeko]

...you roll when you try to pivot grab? that's..scrubby.

During initial dash frames, its pretty likely that its going to happen. :V

During a normal dash though, if that happens, then its scrubby.

 

[Wingflier]

Ok, I finally played some B+ after a long long hiatus, and here are some impressions.

The good
Charizard is freaking beast. He's an amazing mid range camper now with fair and rock smash. For some reason rock smash seems ridiculous against low priority characters like Falcon - It just ***** his approach. I don't think you guys touched it though, right? Against characters like Fox and Marth with decent speed and decent priority, Chari still has a hard time though. Utilt and uair seem like decent combo starters, but I didn't abuse them too much so I'm not sure how legit that is. Dtilt on the edge can set up the spike nicely. UpB is a nice high-risk kill move. Glide still sucks, but I don't think you guys were going to touch that either if I recall (he doesn't need it now anyway). Overall, this is the way Chari should have felt when the game came out. Bravo.

Ivy is also beast, but I knew that from before. You can double razorleaf to ftilt for a nice ground combo.

Lucario upB seems balanced. It has a lot of utility if used smartly, but can get you in trouble as well.

DDD feels good. Jab can actually tick now, and the dair combos are great. I wish I could have landed a jet hammer to see how that felt, but it's hitbox is still pretty homo.

My opponent said Bowser felt right when he played him, so I guess all is well there.

Ganon's upB is thankfully a lot safer now. Choke is awesome as expected. My opponent was kinda disappointed to see Ganon get the downB return and not CF, but I guess Ganon actually needed it...

The bad
There still seems to be some ridiculous upB magnetism going on with the ledge. I think this also fuels the effect of hitting someone out of the upB only to have them snap when they should have received the knock back. I know there was a debate on that back in the day, and I don't recall the outcome, but it seems stupid to me.

Ness and Lucas still seem to get ***** by the FD ledges (right side only?)

I think someone above mentioned this: turn grabbing often results in a roll.

Samus is a lot better, but I'd still like to see the bomb improvement. Her slow floaty butt needs it to augment the keep away game I think.

You also have to remember than Charizard's Boulder Smash counts as a projectile. This means that many characters (especially the smaller ones) have an inherent counter to it in their skill set.

Wing

 

[leafgreen386]

After reading this little discussion on "pivot grabbing" I propose that the brawl implementation of pivot grabbing be called "Sakurai Pivot Grabbing" or "SP grabbing" for short, and that a true pivot into a grab is simply a pivot grab.

=p

 

[stingers]

...What?

Sakurai's Pivot Grab is a Pivot Grab.

A true pivot grab is a True Pivot Grab.

This is simple...

 

[leafgreen386]

...What?

Sakurai's Pivot Grab is a Pivot Grab.

A true pivot grab is a True Pivot Grab.

This is simple...

Because no one actually says "true pivot grab" in conversation. Everyone I've ever talked to actually tends to specify only when talking about brawl's pivot grab, not the true pivot grab. Sakurai wanted to steal the name of an already existing technique to use for his implementation, so instead of renaming the old one, his new version should rightfully be the one that receives some form of a clarification that separates it from the old tech.

 

[stingers]

Does it really matter? Its just a name...

 

[Wingflier]

It matters for clarification purposes. Anything with the name "Sakurai" attached to it, obviously sucks. Now you know.

 

[GHNeko]

It matters enough if it confuses people in conversation due to lack of clarification.

It was the same deal with "tourney viable" in Brawl as people had entirely different means for "viable" when it came to mid/low/bottom tiers.

EDIT: Ninja'd >:

 

[SketchHurricane]

I only played one match on the waiting room stage. Can anyone break down how it differs dimensionally from FD?

 

[goodoldganon]

I only played one match on the waiting room stage. Can anyone break down how it differs dimensionally from FD?

It's bigger...

Well the sides are smaller and so is the roof I believe (might be the same distance) but the platform itself is bigger. It's a better FFA or Teams level then singles.

 

[GHNeko]

And the lips aren't gay. It's a better CP for Snake than falco. And it helps spacies more than FD every could. :V

 

[Blank Mauser]

Question, will the teching code ever be worked on again? I know my friend still hates the fact you can tech by just holding the button, and being able to tech footstools and things really limit their applications.

 

[GHNeko]

Question, will the teching code ever be worked on again? I know my friend still hates the fact you can tech by just holding the button, and being able to tech footstools and things really limit their applications.

Holding a button to tech is better than teching based on distance because it necessary in a game like B+.

as for teching footstools, who knows. I know ganon's side B is fixed, and the same method might work for footstools.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I really don't like the idea of non-techable footstools in B+. Seems like it'd lead into really lame reset combos/infinites.

That's just me though. >.>

 

[Blank Mauser]

Holding a button to tech is better than teching based on distance because it necessary in a game like B+.

as for teching footstools, who knows. I know ganon's side B is fixed, and the same method might work for footstools.

Its fixed? Since when?

I rather footstools be untechable then Ganon's side-B. Footstools are pretty hard to land, and at most I expect reset combos but not infinites.

Teching based on frames works best, which is what the code is meant to do correct? The ability to hold it is just the lack of detecting the release of the button and not just the press, or is it something else? Either way, ideally it'd be best if teching was just frame-based, but really I had no problem with distance based.

 

[Swordplay]

Its fixed? Since when?

I rather footstools be untechable then Ganon's side-B. Footstools are pretty hard to land, and at most I expect reset combos but not infinites.

Teching based on frames works best, which is what the code is meant to do correct? The ability to hold it is just the lack of detecting the release of the button and not just the press, or is it something else? Either way, ideally it'd be best if teching was just frame-based, but really I had no problem with distance based.

If untechable footstools are brought back. The IC gets there infinite back since it was one of the ways to do the infinite (wobbling) Any fix would be extremely harsh on them. If anything I think footstools should be weaker. You land 1 on somebody like yoshi and its over.


amazing videos by the way. you have a really agressive style and make awesome use of QAC.

 

[GHNeko]

Unreleased set. :V

We're making sure it works 100% before we let it loose.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

tbh..
id rather no foot stools or no tumble when you foot stool.
just my opinion

 

[Yingyay]

I'd like invisible footstooling removed more than anything.

about to hit somebody but the mash jump and escape......bOOO!!!!