Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[OmniOstrich]

Someone already mentioned that, actually. Though this is true, it's been stated that it's better to tech chase with other things such as a grab into dthrow or a dash attack.

I understand the reason for wanting it changed and all that, and I agree its not a practical move at all, I was just pointing out it is not entirely useless.

It should also be noted that it becomes more practical in doubles matches.

 

[_clinton]

Someone already mentioned that, actually. Though this is true, it's been stated that it's better to tech chase with other things such as a grab into dthrow or a dash attack.

I believe PK flash's main purpose was to edgeguard, which is why it sends Ness and Lucas into freefall when used, as Sakurai probably didn't want it to be a broken edgeguarding tool. Problem is it's easy to see coming, and slow moving, making it easy to AD through. Chances are this would be rectified if the hitbox were made bigger, but projectiles cannot, as of yet, be modified yet.

Well...PK Flash's main purpose is to edgeguard yes...but it has more than one way at doing that...

For one it has far less cooldown time than it seems...in truth you can launch a quick flash in less than a second...so it works as sort of a fake out tool as well...

 

[Kaitou Ace]

An uncharged PK Flash can be a good tool to rack up damage without using aerials but since there's no decay in B+ there's pretty much always a better option than PK Flash in those instances, so it's pretty much stuck to its edgeguarding uses.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Ok, so i did a little bit of testing and like i predicted, i think it's actually easier to combo FF's at low percentages with Kirby's new uptilt. Before you could pull off 2 Uptilts before the opponent could DI and tech away (possibly only one, if you DI perfectly or the kirby isnt fast enough), with the new uptilt you are guaranteed 2 uptilts and then a possible follow up with a Dash attack at least.

I hadn't tested against floaties who it may help some but you couldn't really spam uptilt on them before either. I would guess it just gives you a better chance for a B-air. So basically, I LIKE the new uptilt. The fact that kirby was too short before allowed FF's to DI right or left and down to tech, now that they go higher (of course) it takes them longer to reach the ground and too safety giving kirby enough time to deal a little more damage.

So whether or not this is a nerf or not, i actually like it better.

 

[Nybb]

Bowser is pretty obviously outclassed in almost every category, and there was a call for suggestions, so here are some Bowser ideas:

1) Make his second jab knock you up and towards him (think Falco's shine buff) for increased set-up potential.
2) Give his up-B more beef! Mostly the initial hit. Make it actually have decent kill potential. I am aware that this would make it so hitting Bowser's shield would be really dangerous -- that is pretty much what I am advocating. Perhaps even slightly nerf the knockback on the later hits to compensate.
3) Either speed up his d-air or his d-B. He is pretty vulnerable underneath him, AND he is prone to juggling.
4) Make him a bit less floaty. He just doesn't feel right.
5) The hitbox buffs that have already been suggested, i.e. increase the size of u-tilt and u-smash.

I'm not saying he should receive all (or even any) or these buffs, just throwing out some ideas for discussion.

 

[GHNeko]

The reason why he was made floaty was to help him combat characters who combo to tell. If he was made heavier, he'd be combo'd more and you guys would complain about it.

Right now, my ideas are to increase the damage output of ALL of his moves and increase his weight so that he survives longer and adjusting physics to be proportionate to his new weight (in his favor, of course)

For someone like bowser, he should live longer than snake imo. :V

That will solve his "omg he gets ***** by combos" problem, because even if he does get ***** by combos, if he lives to high vBrawl percents, it doesnt ****ing matter cuz he can just like smack you 3 times, and then bam, 45% tacked on to what you already have.

 

[_clinton]

The reason why he was made floaty was to help him combat characters who combo to tell. If he was made heavier, he'd be combo'd more and you guys would complain about it.

Him being floaty kinda makes sense...the guy can jump pretty well in case you have forgotten that from certain games (SMB3, SM64, SMG even)

Plus the monster is a powerful wizard as well...

 

[Deleted member]

let's give his fire breath derkness!

on a more serious note, I like number 1 and 2 of those ideas. I don't really play bowser (I could never play with him well) but that sounds as a reasonable buff

 

[JCaesar]

Bowser's up-B used to have more killing power. It killed at like 90, which was kinda ridiculous for such an easy to land attack.

Bowser could definitely use something though. I'd be in favor of faster startup on down-B or an overall damage/weight buff like Neko suggested.

 

[KAN]

Some comments to this:

Bowser is pretty obviously outclassed in almost every category, and there was a call for suggestions, so here are some Bowser ideas:

1) Make his second jab knock you up and towards him (think Falco's shine buff) for increased set-up potential.
2) Give his up-B more beef! Mostly the initial hit. Make it actually have decent kill potential. I am aware that this would make it so hitting Bowser's shield would be really dangerous -- that is pretty much what I am advocating. Perhaps even slightly nerf the knockback on the later hits to compensate.
3) Either speed up his d-air or his d-B. He is pretty vulnerable underneath him, AND he is prone to juggling.
4) Make him a bit less floaty. He just doesn't feel right.
5) The hitbox buffs that have already been suggested, i.e. increase the size of u-tilt and u-smash.

I'm not saying he should receive all (or even any) or these buffs, just throwing out some ideas for discussion.

1) I don't think that this is a good idea. Bowser needs this as a get outta my face move and getting combos from defensive attacks is a little bit weird. Also it could prove to be too good (with a followed Uair, UpSmash or uptitl, which all hit pretty hard) or too bad (as in you can't land anything from it). Maybe we can try, we'll see.

2) Yup! I think so, too. Or speed it up. It should be the combo breaker it was in Melee. Bowser needs it as an OoS pressure relief and punishing move (you can't punish that many aerials in Brawl+ anymway). And the move itself can be punished quite well. The whole move should be sped up a little. (Not too much!) Only to not being that easily punished.

3) Yup, Or you could give one of his aerials (preferaybly a shell-based move) few frames of Super Armor. (Just a suggestion.)

4) Your're right. The floatiness helps him, sure, but he doesn't feel right. Just make him heavier, so he survives the combos. Ok, let him be comboed, but he shouldn't be killed that easily after.

5) Jup. That would be another help. Uptilt can work as a nice intercepting and setup move that way and Up-Smash can finally punish dairing swordsmen again. Maybe Upsmash could get SA frames. (But making the hitbox bigger is prefered. )
With this options he can punish obvious approaches form above...

---
And also change the angle on his fair! It is really crappy that you can DI to the sky. -.-
It has to hit forwards!

Being heavier and less floaty is a valid point, too.

And giving him damage buff sounds reasonable.

---
This are only options. I don't want everything to be included, this are just some thoughts, a well-balanced selection has to be found.
I think that the better fair and the heaviness is a must, though.

So maybe some of these changes (at least the fair!) can get a test set for one of the next builds?

 

[shanus]

We've given him fairly substantial damage buffs, this doesn't solve his issues.

If you make him heavier, you enhance his comboability, which in effect would be a nerf to him.

As I said before, increase the hitbox size of his utilt and upsmash would be a HUGE buff for him. Utilts hitbox is retardedly small, but incredibly useful. Upsmash is an amazing AD punisher due to its staggered two hitboxes, but its hitbox size dramatically limits the move. Bowser has a pressure relief tool with fortress which sends the opponent upwards. We need him to be able to capitalize on this situation afterwards so that he isn't always *only* trying to relieve pressure.

 

[Shadic]

You could always bring back the code that makes him take less damage, maybe tone down the formula a bit.

It's a code that fits in extremely well with his character.

 

[ChronoTrigga]

How do I upgrade from my current Brawl + to 4.1b without losing my textures/etc?

 

[VietGeek]

How do I upgrade from my current Brawl + to 4.1b without losing my textures/etc?

Download just the .gct and replace the old .gct with it...just like before.

 

[leafgreen386]

We've given him fairly substantial damage buffs, this doesn't solve his issues.

If you make him heavier, you enhance his comboability, which in effect would be a nerf to him.

As I said before, increase the hitbox size of his utilt and upsmash would be a HUGE buff for him. Utilts hitbox is retardedly small, but incredibly useful. Upsmash is an amazing AD punisher due to its staggered two hitboxes, but its hitbox size dramatically limits the move. Bowser has a pressure relief tool with fortress which sends the opponent upwards. We need him to be able to capitalize on this situation afterwards so that he isn't always *only* trying to relieve pressure.

Which is why I keep saying we should reduce its endlag... UpB should be a BnB combo setup for him, enabling him to get another hit off at low percents - no questions asked.

You could always bring back the code that makes him take less damage, maybe tone down the formula a bit.

It really just let him get combo'd more. The first couple hits do less damage, but then they get to land another hit on him since he isn't being sent as far, which ultimately ended up causing him to take more damage from the combo. Since he still dies at the same percents, it didn't really help him that much.

 

[ChronoTrigga]

I have another question....is brawl+ 4.1b slower compared to the previous version? the gamespeed I mean.

 

[GHNeko]

If you make him heavier, you enhance his comboability, which in effect would be a nerf to him.

Which is why we compensate this grav to make his weight increase better and overall buff.

 

[shanus]

Which is why we compensate this grav to make his weight increase better and overall buff.

That wont do your intention at all. His higher grav will make his horizontal KOs far more prevalent with a recovery which is easily gimpable. We tried higher gravity for him before and it doesnt achieve the goal you want. You enhance his ability to be combo'd AND you nerf his horizontal survivability (which is his main issue) for slightly higher vertical survivability.

Lose-Lose IMO.

 

[thesage]

So after playing Ness last night with the latest build I think he feels pretty good now. The only thing I think he needs is a sped up dair (make it come out 4 frames faster) and pkt2 sweetspots the edge more consistently. Don't bother fiddling with pk flash, it's fine as it is.

If you could make Falco's side-b punishable that would be very nice.

 

[KAN]

Which is why I keep saying we should reduce its endlag... UpB should be a BnB combo setup for him, enabling him to get another hit off at low percents - no questions asked.

Yup. Speed upB up.

 

[Shell]

The only problem is that if you speed up the endlag on the fortress, guess what it leads into almost immediately....?


Another fortress. Combined with the fact that you move when you do the move and it's quick startup, you have a super spammable tactic that leads into itself if you miss. Fortress all dai. I've actually tried messing with it before, and it didn't work too well.

 

[XSilvenX]

Yup. Speed upB up.

Speeding up the endlag will just make the move spammable...for what upb is (an easy to land "gtfo" move) there's no way you can have it be spammable. Making him combo from it can only mean speeding up the endlag and to me that is not an option. Bowser is just a bad character people...he's not gonna get any better and you won't see Bowser mains popping up out of nowhere no matter what buffs you give the guy.

For what he is though, people seem to do fine with him from what I see although he'll never be as good as the other giant chars (Dedede and DK) because he lacks the range that they with the small amount of risk involved. For example DK and DDD's bair... What does Bowser have that can zone as well as those moves..? Nothing. What Bowser needs is a completely different moveset and that is something codes can't provide imo. He's just a bad character with very limited tools to work with. Buffing moves and giving him unfair stats (higher defense, taking less damage....wow, talk about bad ideas) won't do much for his poor pressuring ability. Bowser is and always will be a mindgame character and the moves that convey this playstyle are either already good or have been buffed already (fsmash, forward b) so why does he need more buffs? Especially since nobody here has even seen a Brawl+ Bowser main yet. And please spare me the "I play Bowser on the side" BS because that doesn't cut it...I can fricken play him on the side that doesn't mean I know how to utilize everything in his arsenal completely.


Look at what he already has as buffs...what else do you guys want seriously? The majority of the guys asking for buffs don't even use the character which I find even more funny...

-Bowser Fair all hits do 3 more damage
-Bowser F tilt does 2 more damage
-Bowser Up and B hitbox 1: 70 base and 80 growth to 70 base and 90 growth
-Bowser Up and B hitbox 2: 80 base and 50 growth to 100 base and 50 growth
-Bowser Up and B hitbox 3: 50 base and 50 growth to 70 base and 50 growth
-Bowser Fsmash final hitbox BKB 50 and KBG 90 and fire, original growth 81, BKB 22
-Bowser Bair angle decreased to 20 from 35
-Bowser downB hb3 (90 growth from 75, 60 base from 45)
-Bowser downB hb4 (80 growth from 72, 14 damage from 11)

-Bowser Utilt on frame 13, 1.5x faster
-Bowser Ftilt 1.2x faster
-Bowser has 50% less lag on up+b landing

Perhaps the only thing I could see helping him is an uptilt hitbox mod so that it can hit easier from behind therefore making his mindgames even more potent. That's Link's saving grace (reverse uptilt) so it'll definitely help him..

The only problem is that if you speed up the endlag on the fortress, guess what it leads into almost immediately....?


Another fortress. Combined with the fact that you move when you do the move and it's quick startup, you have a super spammable tactic that leads into itself if you miss. Fortress all dai.

Yes why don't more people see this problem with speeding up endlag. A lot of the endlag buffs really need to be thought about it carefully...making things spammable does not sound like it fits in the Brawl+ mission statement (whenever one comes out..)

 

[Shell]

Looks like XSilvenX got to it at the same time as me.

I will say, however, that lowering the BKB of Fortress and boosting the KBG could give him more combo potential while keeping the kill potential, all without making the Fortress too spammable (I'm not the first to suggest this). I'm not sure if this is necessary after we enlarge the U-tilt / U-smash hitboxes, but it's something to consider.

 

[XSilvenX]

Livestream

Just letting you guys know I have a fest going on with a few people. It'll be me, D1, Starz, Blackanese, Guru, Blueterrorist, SKip and Ninjalink in attendance so it's worth watching for a little insight on Brawl+

Here's the link

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/silvenstream


Sorry I know this isn't exactly related to the topic but meh if you have nothing to do and want to watch good players....

 

[goodoldganon]

If we buff Bowser I still think just a blanket damage buff is the way to go. Add like 1% to his moves.

 

[KAN]

Yes why don't more people see this problem with speeding up endlag. A lot of the endlag buffs really need to be thought about it carefully...making things spammable does not sound like it fits in the Brawl+ mission statement (whenever one comes out..)

Well, linking a fortress into another is not really that useful. Aren't the nightly builds there to test out changes?
Also what about the fair angle?

Yes, Bowser has already many buffs, but he was nerfed by the B+ physics. So, up to now there is no major buff (as to balance out this nerf) to him.
And B+ exists to balance out the characters. So just because he's bad he should stay like that? Well that is pretty much not the spirit of B+, is it?

 

[ChronoTrigga]

Just letting you guys know I have a fest going on with a few people. It'll be me, D1, Starz, Blackanese, Guru, Blueterrorist, SKip and Ninjalink in attendance so it's worth watching for a little insight on Brawl+

Here's the link

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/silvenstream


Sorry I know this isn't exactly related to the topic but meh if you have nothing to do and want to watch good players....

lol somebodies wii mote kept pressing the back button

Edit: I also noticed you guys are using handicaps. What exactly do the handicaps do in brawl?

Also, your guys chat won't load. o.o I'm using firefox.

 

[metaXzero]

lol somebodies wii mote kept pressing the back button

Edit: I also noticed you guys are using handicaps. What exactly do the handicaps do in brawl?

Also, your guys chat won't load. o.o I'm using firefox.

Brawl+ handicaps are actually the buffer settings (100 is standard Brawl's 10-frame buffer).

 

[ZodiakLucien]

is ness suppose to fall that fast when trying to do his up B? He seems to be falling a lot faster then he should be. Makes it really hard to just up B up.

 

[goodoldganon]

The timing has been made different (I assume) since Brawl+s higher gravities were added in. You'd have to ask a Ness main to be absolutely sure though.

 

[Nybb]

Well, linking a fortress into another is not really that useful. Aren't the nightly builds there to test out changes?
Also what about the fair angle?

Yes, Bowser has already many buffs, but he was nerfed by the B+ physics. So, up to now there is no major buff (as to balance out this nerf) to him.
And B+ exists to balance out the characters. So just because he's bad he should stay like that? Well that is pretty much not the spirit of B+, is it?

I agree with KAN, we can't just give up on him. Silven, you have to remember that Bowser got substantially nerfed just going into B+. He lost his grab release game, which was one of the main things that gave him a good chance in a lot of matchups. Hitstun also obvoiusly hurt him, in that it made almost everybody else better while he got left behind.

He was pretty much average as far as tier placement went in vBrawl, so I don't think it's impossible to try to get him back to that state. He just doesn't really excel in any area right now...maybe once we get a throw modifier we can give him back a good grab game or something.

 

[shanus]

Just cause we say one idea for a buff is bad, it doesn't mean we are giving up on him. I think we've had 4-5 posts from BR members in this thread post several ideas for boozer buffs, its a matter of finding what is the most appropriate.

 

[_clinton]

The timing has been made different (I assume) since Brawl+s higher gravities were added in. You'd have to ask a Ness main to be absolutely sure though.

I haven't had any issues with using Ness and Lucas' PKT recovery ATM...hell I like it more than many of the other moves out there (locking into the ledge is so easy to do still)

 

[CloneHat]

What's the point of changing everyone's gravity so spontaneously? What was the purpose of this, for there didn't seem to be many, if any complaints about gravity settings.

 

[goodoldganon]

We've changed like 5 gravities recently. I don't see how that's so many of them.

 

[CloneHat]

Sorry, I didn't realize that was the FULL changelist.

 

[Fisherington]

So, no renewal for UpB for Ivysaur... why? His recovery is pretty bad, I thought that was a logical move.

 

[HeroPenguin]

Just cause we say one idea for a buff is bad, it doesn't mean we are giving up on him. I think we've had 4-5 posts from BR members in this thread post several ideas for boozer buffs, its a matter of finding what is the most appropriate.

Has there been any discussion on increasing the number of moves with Super Armor for Bowser? It seems to be keeping in spirit with the character, being the largest and heaviest character in the game, to have multiple moves that have so much momentum behind them that they just can't be stopped once in motion.

I do like the idea mentioned earlier of increasing the speed of downB's start up to give him a legitimate threat against jugglers, as well as super armor/faster start up on nair to give him a better GTFO move in the air.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Where is the text file for the codes now? I need them to make snapshots files so I can take out file replacement.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I concur with the argument against Silven to continue experimenting with Bowser until we find some sort of happy formula. I don't care if he stays a low tier character, but as of right now he really has a hard time dealing with most characters. Until we can get him to be a viable character against the majority of matches, even if he's low tier, I don't see any harm in working with him for a very long time if we have to. That's what this thread was created for. Let's stop fretting over what initially sounds balanced or not. Let's test it and find out! That's why we have the nightly builds instead of implementing these into the official release! You never know for 100% what changes will cause until you at least throw them in and find out. If we just left Bowser in the dust, that kind of defeats the entire purpose of Brawl+.

However, I would like to state that Bowser should not get any "special" coding as far as his balancing goes. What I mean is, for example, don't make him the only character in the game that takes less damage, or some other odd effects like that. Let's try to keep all balancing within the realm of what already exists in the game, please.