Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[thesage]

The timing isn't different at all. You have to aim differently though since it sweetspots at different angles depending on the stage (or it doesn't sweetspot at all on some stages).

I think Ness' dair should just be sped ups. Ganons is faster, is a comparable spike, has just as much range, and does more damage... Ness' dair comes out slower than his f-smash lol. I'm just asking it to be like 6 frames faster...

Edit: Nvm, according to this: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=52871 it's 1 frame faster than f-smash.

Also, Peach should have more range/priority on nair and bair should kill better.

 

[JCaesar]

Ganon's spike also has a lot of endlag and is very punishable when missed.

Really, I don't think any spike that can kill most characters at ZERO deserves any kind of buff.

And for the Peach stuff, why? Peach is already a very good character, she doesn't need buffs.

 

[Almas]

The purpose balancing is to fix bad characters, not bad moves. I agree, Ivysaur's recovery is bad. So what? He's a good character.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Where is the text file for the codes now? I need them to make snapshots files so I can take out file replacement.

anyone? sorry if im being impatient.. haven't had the chance to play b+ in a while

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah, characters are allowed to have weaknesses...you can't have every character perfect, otherwise they would basically be the same character. Because if you made people have more killing potential (like bowser) and they had nothing bad about them, then people would complain about X characters not having enough power because X characters have more power than them, and the same scenario for every other category: Weight, recovery, speed, comboing. It would make the game...very boring.

 

[thesage]

Ness's is just as punishiable since it has no shieldstun.

Also it doesn't kill people at 0. Nobody knows how to meteor cancel. I dair'd a Sonic in vbrawl @ 90 and he still recovered back to the stage. If the meteor is broken then take that away. It's not even his best edgeguarding tool and only is really useable against people with slow moving up-b's like Diddy, Kirby, Fox and Falco and Snake. Otherwise, grabbing hte ledge, d-tilt, offstage fair/nair, pkt, pk fire, and pk flash are all better edgeguard moves.

 

[Magus420]

You'll get the information when the OP of the thread is actually complete but, here's a premature list of the chars who can CG Falcon some with %s and some without

Luigi Dthrow (ongoing beyond 100%, will be looked into fixing when we can)

This doesn't work on Falcon. Even with the help of the frame advance code I could never pull off a regrab on CF when they DI'd away since he would go too far/hit the ground too quickly. It's technically possible to CG the lighter fast fallers like Fox, though I know in Fox's case at low damage you need to dash for exactly 2 frames (no more no less) and then dash grab. This also assumes you have the beastly reaction time required to react to their DI and dash perfectly out of it (while you have more time to act off the throw since the throw animation is sped up when throwing lightweights, you also have less time to react). It starts to have a 2 or more frame window on the dash length later on and then higher than that when you can start to kill him off the throw with a sliding u-smash.

While he theoretically can regrab Fox until above 100% with impeccable timing, it doesn't really matter since even on FD the most regrabs he can get at best is about 3 which is an amazing 18 damage, since he can just DI off the stage if the Fox player happens to be playing against a robot.



Luigi's d-throw to aerial up-B "combo" was also stupidly difficult to actually get to work even with the frame advance's assistance when the opponent DI's properly. It's impossible to land with DI at decently high percents on the faster falling characters since they have less stun for the horizontal distance they travel. Near the percents the nerfed (a)up-B actually kills people now (kills Mario on FD @ 120% with DI, while n-air kills him at 129%) the combo doesn't actually work on anyone from what I could tell. All combinations of dash lengths and jump timings still would always allow time to at least get a jump started which would cause him to miss the sweetspot (and proceed to get *****). The easiest I found was on Zelda which stopped being possible around 100 or less. Most that were possible were only up to 80/85. Some like Sheik simply were not possible at all except at low damage where the normal powered (a)up-B should never be able to KO.

Also when I say "possible", I mean if you react in time to dash perfectly out of the throw, dash for just the right number of frames, and jump and/or double jump at just the right times you can actually manage to hit them on the very last frame or 2 of hitstun. I really don't see why this nerf is needed, or at least anywhere to the degree that it is (kills at 120% with DI on Mario, 144% on Snake).


Oh and btw every character in the game except for Wario and Yoshi can't block jab to grounded up-b since jab has 14-16 frames of stun instead of 11-13 like it used to. How something like that goes unnoticed while a non-realistic and almost always avoidable "combo" that killed at nearly twice the damage is what gets whined about and then changed I haven't a clue.

 

[CountKaiser]

I think Sage want's the dair speed up to help ness's on stage game a bit, not his edgeguard game

@Magus: Since you seem to be the resident expert on Luigi, why don't you come up with a list of grievances that we can fix?

 

[GHNeko]

Magus is an expect of smash data imo. :V

 

[shanus]

Magus, thanks for the post, I had posted a while ago asking for you to explain all this stuff. We will fix in the future. If you could PM me exact details on how you would think luigi jab upB should work and about the luigi aerial upB nerf I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[leafgreen386]

It's times like these that I'm really glad we have magus around. Really, just looking at the data, something like that shouldn't have been nerfed. Only reason I can think of for it being nerfed is too many people complaining about seeing a match where someone lands a dthrow -> upB and it kills, and they don't play luigi enough to know that his aerial upB is considerably weaker than the grounded one. I mean... frick, I remember people back then saying that it was a kill combo at 40 or 50, when it's not even close. Time to talk about reverting it to normal with the other broomers.

On the topic of ness, I see nothing wrong with speeding up his dair a little. Not by 6 frames, though >_>

 

[stingers]

I really think that Marth should be replaced with Roy in all future codesets...

You guys have shown to be completely inept at balancing Marth, so why not? In all Brawl+ codesets Marth has been at the top of the pack and has been able to pull off as much BS as MK can in vBrawl. Roy however seems to be a much more balanced character, and I think that it's a lot better for competition to just stick Roy in here instead.

Plus, Roy is so much cooler then Marth.

 

[BeepBopRobot]

@Stingers: Or you know, instead of alienating/severely pissing off Marth users, they could just not do that, and could attempt to balance marth and instead implement Roy once it is possible to have him and marth at the same time.

Also I was wondering if you planned on making teching require skill and you would have to hit the button right as your hit the ground, or if you were planning on leaving it the way it is where you just hold r after your hit to auto tech.

 

[cman]

@Stingers: Or you know, instead of alienating/severely pissing off Marth users, they could just not do that, and could attempt to balance marth and instead implement Roy once it is possible to have him and marth at the same time.

Also I was wondering if you planned on making teching require skill and you would have to hit the button right as your hit the ground, or if you were planning on leaving it the way it is where you just hold r after your hit to auto tech.

It's not automatic, it's just a fairly big window in which you can press the button to tech.

 

[stingers]

I really honestly think that Roy is a much more balanced character then Marth, and the people in charge of this must have some sort of Marth fetish because he has not once been anything but top 3 in every version released. I don't know how hard to balance a character is, but they could try a little bit harder, for our sake. If they're in charge, I expect them to do their jobs properly.

The guy that made Roy did a pretty good job balancing him and he has enough unique quirks about him to make him a very good, but still balanced character. One that would actually take skill to master, like Diddy Kong or Snake in vBrawl. I don't see it as anything but an improvement for competition by taking out Marth and adding in Roy, until it's possible to have them both in.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Roy is ten times better than Marth.

We are talking about the same game, right? o.o

 

[shanus]

I really honestly think that Roy is a much more balanced character then Marth, and the people in charge of this must have some sort of Marth fetish because he has not once been anything but top 3 in every version released. I don't know how hard to balance a character is, but they could try a little bit harder, for our sake. If they're in charge, I expect them to do their jobs properly.

The guy that made Roy did a pretty good job balancing him and he has enough unique quirks about him to make him a very good, but still balanced character. One that would actually take skill to master, like Diddy Kong or Snake in vBrawl. I don't see it as anything but an improvement for competition by taking out Marth and adding in Roy, until it's possible to have them both in.

Personal preference ≠ competition. There are a lot of marth mains out there and that would be a large collective middle finger to all of them which just isn't feasible, at all. Also, adding characters is a very ballsy move which is not necessarily a good addition to brawl+. That would lead to saying who should we add, why should we add them, how is it better for making this a tournament friendly game, and how does it in anyway add to our credibility (read: it doesn't, many top level players have explicitly called such a move fanboyism at its finest). There are a lot of subtleties and tough decisions to make towards adding characters to the game and a lot of new codes which would be required to make it a reality.

Case and point, who knows what will happen with the direction of new characters, but it isn't going to officially happen for some time.

P.S. I do enjoy Roy a lot (GoG and the others in the BR who worked on him for fun did a killer job), don't get me wrong. But adding characters is a very fine line and a very very big step.

 

[Shadic]

I think at the same time, if all we did was add the removed characters from Melee, there'd be a lot less resistance.

I'm going to be quite irritated if we start adding crap like Cloud or Goku or Naruto though.

 

[stingers]

If you're not ballsy enough to add a new character, can you guys make a better attempt to balance Marth?

His combos are too easy (Ken combo is back...with a vengeance). His recovery is ridiculous because if you attempt to edgeguard him, he'll auto ledge cling when his sword hits you. His aerial mobility is reaching Jiggs/Wario levels, which is obnoxious when you consider all his aerials have some of the longest range in the game AND are disjointed. He can kill, especially because he no longer needs to save his Fsmash for killing like he used to. His Side B used to be the epitome of broken but it's been toned down a bit more in the most recent release, which means you guys are at least on the right step but to think that it's still not one of the best moves in the game is pretty silly.

He's got vBrawl Meta Knight-esque levels of control, I don't know why you took steps to nerf Meta Knight but nearly none to nerf Marth.

 

[shanus]

If you are suffering from ken combos, your DI is wrong. Marth is one of the best in the game, but he is beatable. His upB was nerfed, and just so you know, MK outranges him even though he is a small puffball.

Nearly no nerfs to marth? His damage output is dropped to like 80% of before!


Also, ballsy was a bad choice of word. Its more along the lines of "is it wise to add a new character to the game?"

 

[stingers]

You can add as many new characters as you want, as long as you balance them.

I swear to god people will not be mad at you for giving them more characters to choose from. I promise. As long as you make sure they're not utterly broken or utterly useless, then that will only be positive publicity.

Edit: Oh, right, the Marth thing. Saying "Sure he's good, but he's beatable!" is a really bad excuse for not properly balancing the guy. Meta Knight is "beatable" in vBrawl, but you can't sit there and tell me he's not broken. Are you sure MK still outranges Marth since the tips of MKs Fair don't even hit anymore? He doesn't outrange from above or below either, MK only "outranges" Marth in the air when their backs are to each other it seems. And then Marth can still do a turnaround Side-B anyway, as unlikely as that is it's still a possible action.

Marth's up B damage was nerfed but that doesn't say anything about how impossible it is to edgeguard him. You haven't fixed the auto ledgecling when the Up-B hitbox connects with a hurtbox, so that's completely unrelated to the point I was making earlier.

 

[GHNeko]

If you're not ballsy enough to add a new character, can you guys make a better attempt to balance Marth?

His combos are too easy (Ken combo is back...with a vengeance). His recovery is ridiculous because if you attempt to edgeguard him, he'll auto ledge cling when his sword hits you. His aerial mobility is reaching Jiggs/Wario levels, which is obnoxious when you consider all his aerials have some of the longest range in the game AND are disjointed. He can kill, especially because he no longer needs to save his Fsmash for killing like he used to. His Side B used to be the epitome of broken but it's been toned down a bit more in the most recent release, which means you guys are at least on the right step but to think that it's still not one of the best moves in the game is pretty silly.

He's got vBrawl Meta Knight-esque levels of control, I don't know why you took steps to nerf Meta Knight but nearly none to nerf Marth.

....


wat

....A-Are you talking about Official 4.0 Marth? Because of you are, you need to get updated dude. They recently OVERNERFED marth. Me and Spammers had to practically yell at them to fix him up.

The guy is very good. Top-High tier material, but so help me god if anyone says Marth is even remotely broken or "too good."

What the ****?


EDIT: WTF. ARE YOU PRAISING HIS RECOVERY? WHICH IS BALLS HORRIBLE!? JESUS CHRIST.

 

[stingers]

...What?

Beta 4.1? You think Marth is...bad?

I'm confused.

 

[shanus]

Adding new characters is kind of a part of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should." Throwing a stick out and saying as long as you balance them is a pretty ridiculous statement as well as we heavily rely on known strategy and a rapidly evolving metagame to even attempt to balance these characters. its by no means an easy process, let alone designing a character from scratch. Furthermore, we do not have the codes yet to generate a standalone character and we have to worry about our current issues before we even consider new introductions.

We need to fix the infamous end of match dash cancel crash, fix up the camera codes so we can use them without angry helicopters, and a laundry list of other code improvements. Then, maybe, and that isn't even considiering the competitive impact and the repercussions for our reputation!

 

[GHNeko]

...What?

Beta 4.1? You think Marth is...bad?

I'm confused.

I think 4.1 Marth is good, but I doubt he'll start sweeping tourneys Melee-style.

As I've said to GuruKid,

[20:08] GHNeko: I swear to god.
[20:09] GHNeko: If Marth doesnt start winning at least half of the B+ tourneys that occur in the next half year
[20:09] GHNeko: Im going to start chopping balls and ***** off.

Seriously. He's very good, but NOT so good that he's in his own tier or even vBrawl MK good.

 

[stingers]

Also, ballsy was a bad choice of word. Its more along the lines of "is it wise to add a new character to the game?"

I was responding to that. I wasn't talking about whether it was currently feasible or high on the to-do list.

As far as I know, there isn't a single person in the world that would object to you (for example) putting Mewtwo back into Brawl. I think the whole reason you guys have a Brawl+ Back Room is so you guys can discuss things like balance issues and the Brawl+ Metagame, right? Assuming it's the same as any other backroom, anyway. It doesn't matter how difficult it is, it'd certainly be nothing but good word for you guys when you're done.

I don't see how balancing a new character or balancing one of the ones we already have is any different. Trial and Error is what this project has been based on from the ground up, that wouldn't change no matter how many new characters you hypothetically added.

[20:08] GHNeko: I swear to god.
[20:09] GHNeko: If Marth doesnt start winning at least half of the B+ tourneys that occur in the next half year
[20:09] GHNeko: Im going to start chopping balls and ***** off]

You don't see the problem with that?

 

[GHNeko]

Right now. Marth does NOT deserve any more nerfs. IF he starts sweeping tourneys ala Melee style. Sure. Nerf him. Until then, without valid data and proof, Marth is not THAT good.

 

[stingers]

Okay, so your current opinion is that Marth should be winning at least half of the Brawl+ tourneys that occur in the next year, but you don't think he should be nerfed until that happens? At all?

That's a combination of Slippery Slope and Blatant Selfishness.

 

[bajisci]

completely agree, hes not that good at all... u people are crazy learn to di and space -_-

edit: and gimp

 

[GHNeko]

Okay, so your current opinion is that Marth should be winning at least half of the Brawl+ tourneys that occur in the next year, but you don't think he should be nerfed until that happens? At all?

That's a combination of Slippery Slope and Blatant Selfishness.

Obviously, the "Half of tourneys" thing was just a number, only to get the idea across.

But really, he shows no signs of being extremely dominant. He's kill potential has been hit...HARD, his damage out put as been reduced, his recover has been bad since the start of B+.

You're making him out to be some god-like character when he isnt.

and lol @ insult. GG.

 

[Arkaether]

Marth is good, yes. If you think he's broken, though, I think you need to play better people.

 

[stingers]

But you can't outspace Marth and you can't gimp Marth. Which is the problem.

And don't say something like, "Samus outranges Marth with Zair and ROB gimps Marth with a gyro!" or something stupid like that. Just because one character has a tool to get around one aspect of a characters gameplay (much like how Diddy can completely outmaneuver Meta Knight on the ground) doesn't mean that the character is balanced (Meta Knight Dair camps, problem solved).

Or with B+ Samus/Marth, all Marth has to do is approach above the Zair or powershield the Zair and approach from the ground. Since Samus' ground game is weak and can't contend with Marth at close range, she then proceeds to get *****.

 

[GHNeko]

...Marth is not that hard to gimp if you know what you're doing.

The fact that he is hard to outspace is a character strength.

And about Samus and Marth. You know. That could just be a match up not in her favor? As characters are bound to have those.

It's not an impossible match up. It's far from it.

 

[stingers]

But really, he shows no signs of being extremely dominant.

Oh...then what's with the...

[20:08] GHNeko: I swear to god.
[20:09] GHNeko: If Marth doesnt start winning at least half of the B+ tourneys that occur in the next half year
[20:09] GHNeko: Im going to start chopping balls and ***** off]

Oh...right...

Obviously, the "Half of tourneys" thing was just a number, only to get the idea across.

The idea being that Marth is dominant in the current Brawl+ metagame? Or is there some other way to take what you said that I'm just not seeing?

...Marth is not that hard to gimp if you know what you're doing.

Please tell me how to gimp Marth then. I'm not doubting you, I really would like to know. It'd help me out

The fact that he is hard impossible to outspace is a character strength.

Fixed that for you. And I agree, someone has to be dominant in the air. Marth can certainly be that character, but the problem is that not only does he have a dominant air game, but an incredibly strong ground game as well. Not to mention crazy range, disjointedness in ALL of his attacks, and a good recovery. I don't know where you're getting that Marth has a bad recovery from, I think you're just saying it for the sake of saying it.

And about Samus and Marth. You know. That could just be a match up not in her favor? As characters are bound to have those.

I was just giving an example, but I'm sure I could give similar ones for the rest of the cast.

 

[Arkaether]

But you can't outspace Marth

Bait. And punish.

and you can't gimp Marth. Which is the problem.

LOLWAT. Yes you can. Yeeeeees you can.

And don't say something like, "Samus outranges Marth with Zair and ROB gimps Marth with a gyro!" or something stupid like that. Just because one character has a tool to get around one aspect of a characters gameplay (much like how Diddy can completely outmaneuver Meta Knight on the ground) doesn't mean that the character is balanced (Meta Knight Dair camps, problem solved).

So what, you want me to say "Oh, alright, half the cast can counteract almost everything he does, but THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE CAN FIGHT THEM, OH NO NOT AT ALL"

Or with B+ Samus/Marth, all Marth has to do is approach above the Zair or powershield the Zair and approach from the ground. Since Samus' ground game is weak and can't contend with Marth at close range, she then proceeds to get *****.

Which is why a GOOD samus knows proper spacing and how the keep marth the **** away.

And you fail to realize that marth suffers from the same problem that your "Samus" does. Once someone (like falcon) gets in Marth's face, good luck getting him back out of it. Cause marth is about to get *****, and if he doesn't, your opponents really need to start learning how to play B+ :v

 

[stingers]

Bait. And punish.

Clearly I'm just not baiting Marth's insanely laggy aerials well enough. How stupid of me.

So what, you want me to say "Oh, alright, half the cast can counteract almost everything he does, but THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE CAN FIGHT THEM, OH NO NOT AT ALL"

I'm afraid that doesn't make much sense. Even sarcastically. Lol.

Once someone (like falcon) gets in Marth's face, good luck getting him back out of it. Cause marth is about to get *****, and if he doesn't, your opponents really need to start learning how to play B+ :v

Hey, this argument! Woo! I love this one ^_^

Tell me...how a Falcon...with no disjointed approaches and...the only aerial with any range is Nair (which is not as good a combo starter as it was in Melee, and also has no disjointedness)...approaches Marth.

Falcon vs. Marth is exactly the same as it was in Melee, and guess what? Marth won there too.

 

[Arkaether]

Clearly I'm just not baiting Marth's insanely laggy aerials well enough. How stupid of me.

Agreed.

I'm afraid that doesn't make much sense. Even sarcastically. Lol.

Oh well.

Tell me...how a Falcon...with no disjointed approaches and...the only aerial with any range is Nair (which is not as good a combo starter as it was in Melee, and also has no disjointedness)...approaches Marth.

Falcon vs. Marth is exactly the same as it was in Melee, and guess what? Marth won there too.

Mindgamez. Learn them. Love them. Use them.

 

[stingers]

...So you have no argument.

Well, glad that's settled. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member]

Not that I dis/agree with you, but saying "Mindgamez" is like saying "be better". It isn't a character trait, and we're talking about character balance.

 

[Arkaether]

Of course I do. However, it boils down to "learn how to play the game". And I don't think you'd particularly appreciate that.

For example, so what if Marth is good? Marth in melee is good. Do you see people *****ing about how he should be banned in tournaments? No? Why not?

tnemrot: "Mindgamez" means "whatever the heck falcon does to approach marth, I don't play him, how do I know. Go ask melee falcon mains. :v"