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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

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stingers

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She has enough mobility to WoP how she is, though. Her bair still has decent range and is fast, and a surprise Fair is good every once and awhile (it needs to be a surprise so your opponent can't DI it straight up and kill the WoP)...and that's all she needs really. She still has enough jumps and can move swiftly enough through the air to chain bairs together (her main WoP). You could try giving it more hitstun, but giving her more aerial mobility will just cause her to become OP.

~Jiggs Maining Friend
 
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I can Ninja. =D

Two things:

Warlock Punch and utilt aren't really supposed to be good. There for punishing stupid laggy things and to laugh your *** off when you actually hit them.
Would buffs to these moves help Ganon? Not really.

Jiggs needs to be better in the air if she's going to continue being so ****ty on the ground. She really has no "go to" ground moves. Hell, her jab can be punished.
 

stingers

Smash Obsessed
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Her grab game is really good. Her grab range is surprisingly large and they all serve the purpose of getting the opponent back in the air where you want them.

Otherwise, besides Fsmash and Utilt, they're all basically useless. But that's how it's supposed to be :p
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
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Mar 20, 2006
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Playing melee and smash ultimate
For jiggs... really, wario stole her aerial mobility in brawl. It never made her too good in melee, just very campy. She's still very campy in brawl+, but she isn't as good at it due to having reduced aerial mobility. I wouldn't mind giving her a small buff to her aerial mobility, but I disagree about it not helping her rest combo. Nair -> rest and bair -> rest would like to have a word with you.

As for her sing, I'd just wanna increase the hitbox size a bit to give ledgehop sing a purpose.
 
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Her grab game is really good. Her grab range is surprisingly large and they all serve the purpose of getting the opponent back in the air where you want them.

Otherwise, besides Fsmash and Utilt, they're all basically useless. But that's how it's supposed to be :p
How'd you come to that conclusion? D:

Except in Brawl, she's NEVER had a non-existent ground game. She's had a bad ground game, and only had a few moves that really worked. Now she literally has nothing on the ground except grabs that don't combo or kill. >_>

Sans maybe dthrow on some characters.
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
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Apr 18, 2009
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Thing is, "barely enough" for jigglypuff in the air doesn't cut is. She has the worst ground game in the game, hands-down, no argument. She can't WoP combo, mainly because it doesn't actually combo. The opponent can get out if they know what they're doing. She can't WoP strategy, because she doesn't have the mobility to weave in and out of the opponent's range at all. Her attacks are easily punishable because of her bad mobility. You can shield and run in before the attack lag finishes and punish. With mobility, she'd already have retreated far enough that almost nobody can punish. She dies laughably easy as the lightest character in the game, and she's really just a one-trick pony. Utilt/Uair > Rest is all she's really good for. You want WoP combos? Kirby, DDD, metaknight. You want onstage aerial ****? Squirtle, Wario, Luigi. She has Rest. And sooner or later, a one-trick pony is going to become worthless, especially once the rest of the cast is balanced and people learn how to deal with Rest.

leafgreen: nair>rest and bair>rest already work. Increased aerial mobility wouldn't make it work any better or add any new rest combos. Besides, bair>uair>utilt/uair>rest is a lot better. All increased aerial mobility would do is make her weaving-in-and-out WoP a lot better so that she doesn't get punished for trying to approach.

And I don't care how good her grab game is, the fact is that all they do is put the character in the air. Yes, that is good, since she's an aerial character, but you still can't combo, kill, or really do anything with them except put them in the air. And considering that her ground game is bad to the point of complete non-existence, well, you'd expect her to have at least something decent.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
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We're talking about useless moves?

How about G&W's chef? >.>
Oh god yes.

It is just BEGGING for a little speedup when he flings the food.
It could be a pretty good projectile if he could actually get out of the move in time to make anything of it. It would even give G&W a reliable kill at high percents. And when I say high, I do mean HIGH because it would set up for a Fair which takes plenty of time to kill on stage if you have half a brain to DI it. At any other percent it would be great for a Nair.

It would still be a bad projectile with horrible range and random trajectories that may or may not even hit the opponent. Still easily punishable, but G&W would just get a little reward for actually hitting with it.

Now we can just wait for people to say G&W is perfectly fine and doesn't need it :\
 

stingers

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Thing is, "barely enough" for jigglypuff in the air doesn't cut is. She has the worst ground game in the game, hands-down, no argument. She can't WoP combo, mainly because it doesn't actually combo. The opponent can get out if they know what they're doing. She can't WoP strategy, because she doesn't have the mobility to weave in and out of the opponent's range at all. Her attacks are easily punishable because of her bad mobility. You can shield and run in before the attack lag finishes and punish. With mobility, she'd already have retreated far enough that almost nobody can punish. She dies laughably easy as the lightest character in the game, and she's really just a one-trick pony. Utilt/Uair > Rest is all she's really good for. You want WoP combos? Kirby, DDD, metaknight. You want onstage aerial ****? Squirtle, Wario, Luigi. She has Rest. And sooner or later, a one-trick pony is going to become worthless, especially once the rest of the cast is balanced and people learn how to deal with Rest.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT HITSTUN IS

SHUT THE **** UP YOU'RE DUMB AS HELL

~ My jiggs maining friend
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
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...I can't even begin to reply to such a statement. Tell your "jiggs maining friend" to learn how to play her first, THEN start making stupid comments.
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
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Tell JMF to stop trolling and to make actual constructive comments, please. I'd rather not get infracted, so I'll stop responding to obviously inflammatory comments with no content behind them. I'm far more interested in making sure that the WBR hears and takes note of my opinions, rather than getting into an epeen size argument with JMF.
 

Arkaether

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Deff, would you mind actually providing reasoning and arguments? If you can counteract mine, that's fine as well. At the moment, however, I strongly believe Jigglypuff is in need of quite a few tweaks.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
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Playing melee and smash ultimate
Jiggs is probably on the lower half of the tiers right now, but she doesn't need drastic changes everywhere to be good. I'm perfectly fine with giving her more aerial mobility and a slightly larger sing hitbox.

leafgreen: nair>rest and bair>rest already work. Increased aerial mobility wouldn't make it work any better or add any new rest combos. Besides, bair>uair>utilt/uair>rest is a lot better. All increased aerial mobility would do is make her weaving-in-and-out WoP a lot better so that she doesn't get punished for trying to approach.
I know they already work, but it would make them easier to execute in more situations. Not saying it would be a huge help to her rest game, but it was something worth mentioning.
 

bajisci

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
558
Oh god yes.

It is just BEGGING for a little speedup when he flings the food.
It could be a pretty good projectile if he could actually get out of the move in time to make anything of it. It would even give G&W a reliable kill at high percents. And when I say high, I do mean HIGH because it would set up for a Fair which takes plenty of time to kill on stage if you have half a brain to DI it. At any other percent it would be great for a Nair.

It would still be a bad projectile with horrible range and random trajectories that may or may not even hit the opponent. Still easily punishable, but G&W would just get a little reward for actually hitting with it.

Now we can just wait for people to say G&W is perfectly fine and doesn't need it :\
its actually useful for an edgeguard, if ur opponent is on the edge stand where they would roll right in front of u face the edge and press b for a while, makes it much harder for them to get off the edge u most likely wont get punished and ullg et nice % :D
 

Arkaether

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Well, currently, her rest game is really her only game. I'm not really asking for major nerfs, just increased aerial mobility. Nothing extremely small, but nothing extremely big either. Just something that doesn't feel, you know, like I'm crawling through molasses. I don't particular want extra hitstun, increased damage or knockback, better ground game, or anything like that.

Though something on her grabs would be nice. Like decreased winddown. But just nice, not I'M BEGGING YOU ON HANDS AND KNEES.

And honestly, I doubt anything would make sing more than a highly situational and mostly worthless move.
 

Lil'E

Smash Apprentice
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Sep 26, 2008
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Hammond (Southeastern University), LA
Hey.

This may be unnecessary, but I'll just throw it out and hear why it shouldn't be added if so. This is a Ness thing.

PK Fire has too much lag in my opinion to be used aerially on stage(grounded I've never had problems unless I miss of course). If it connects, the opponent has most likely already DIed out of it and is about to either attack me or has gotten some distance away while I'm waiting for the lag on it to end.

Hopefully a real Ness mainer can give his opinion on the subject. The only other problem I have is bouncing off the ledge while recovering. Just need to practice I suppose...

Other than that... I'm loving the multiple Up B's that was added awhile back. My friends and I have enjoyed the additions to each of our characters. :)
 

Arkaether

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Lil'E, I'm pretty sure some of the vBrawl ness aerial pk fire techniques for lag reduction still work, so you might want to check the Ness boards for that. Though nobody ever really uses aerial pk fire with ness anyways. It's just a bad idea in general.

Recovery is just practice, you'll learn the correct pk thunder trajectories sooner or later.
 
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Ness' aerial PK fire could an animation speed up after the PK fire is out, but I don't think he really needs it. It's something I want, but he can do perfectly fine by simply not using aerial PKF on the stage.

Not being able to PKF cancel with his new physics irritates me, but I can deal with it.
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
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Speaking of Jigglypuff's sing, though: is it possible to give it something besides a sleep effect? After all, there's no possible way of making the sleep effect work very well without resulting in rest followups, and the only thing you can really do is make it bigger to spam ledgehop sing for extremely situational times. If we could put hitboxes or a flower effect or something similar, it might be a lot better.
 

Sph34r

Smash Journeyman
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palo alto, middlefield road
The only thing wrong with sing is that it sucks. You can either make it broken by increasing its radius and effect length or keep it as is with a range lesser then Falcon's grab and an effect duration shorter then vMK's dsmash.
 

Skip2MaLoo

Smash Lord
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Oct 31, 2008
Messages
1,293
jiggs is already good. if you want buffs for anything..maybe her ground game? she's a pretty aerial based character and buffing any character in an area where they are already good is OP'd. its not his sing requests but giving jiggs more aerial mobility which is stupid because she's already good in that area.
 

Glick

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The only thing jiggz needs is increased aerial mobility. Her rest is fine, her grab windown is fine, sing is fine. She is supposed to have useless moves+ sheild break because it is supposed to compensate for her rest and combos. Her character is high risk high rewards.

The reasoning behind jiggz needing increased aerial mobility(not even speed) is because YOSHI has better aerial mobility. This is just something sakurai put in because he likes to **** on all the "broken" characters from melee. He did the same thing to CFs knee and jiggz rest. She needs the mobility in the fast paced world of brawl+. I'm not asking for the aerial mobility of wario, but take a look at jiggz in melee and jiggz in brawl. She is not supposed to change direction so slowly in the air. She is the slowest character on the ground(even slower then ganon) and she needs to be able to change direction quickly to avoid getting hit. (since she's also the lightest character in the game). This also is important because she needs to escape the opponent after she puts in pokes. (similar to what wario does with his fair). This wont make her rest combos any more broken, as she isn't going any faster, she is just changing directions faster and giving the user a better sense of control.


DK NEEDS A NERF. I'm sorry, I've been playing with DK and against DK. His combos are INSANE. He is heavy, has fast moves, has RIDICULOUS combos(cargoupthrow to up air up air up air up air etc etc), and kills early. I have NO idea why you thought it was a good idea to not put him into a free fall after his donkey punch in mid air. There is NO reason why one of the best characters in the game so far(next to 2 or 3 others) should have unnecessary buffs like that. IMO he needs a bit more landing lag on his up air. more aerial lag on his bair and up air. The damage on up and bair could be decreased a bit, while keeping the knock back. Just the fact that he can do combos that he could only do to spacies and fast fallers in melee to almost EVERYONE is obscene and uncalled for. His down smash needs to not kill like it does. I can be send them sideways like it does in melee.

That's about it. I have no personal vendetta against DK. I play with him often, and he is honestly a bit too good. Also, fix lucarios auto snap. I know it has something to do with that being write-protected but its not that fair that he can auto snap while everyone else cant. lol. Sorry If I just stated the obvious with that but its apparent that the auto snap on his up b needs to go.

OK. That is all. Please take my jigglypuff insight seriously. I feel like its the only thing she needs to be able to compete with some of the other characters in this game.
 

XSilvenX

Smash Lord
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
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Arkaether...you're either the worst Jiggs player ever or all of your reasoning is coming from vBrawl.

Listen to Glick...Jiggs is fine. Stop whining about her being a bad ground character. She's SUPPOSED to be used in the air...jesus f*cking christ. I don't agree with the DK nerfs really... I play Shin's DK and a decent DK at my school a lot and I have yet to see anything really "too good" with the guy. All I'll say is giving him no freefall after the punch is definitely unnecessary.


edit - By the way do you have any videos Ark? I just youtubed your name and I found nothing so umm if you don't mind give me a link or something.




btw Newsflash - Sing is supposed to be useless :-\.

Why is the common Brawl+ mentality to give every situational move a use further than necessary? Why does the sing hitbox have to be bigger? I mean it won't make a difference because no good player in their right mind will be caught dead trying to sing off ledge because it's doesn't work, you're basically leaving yourself open to a fsmash or ftilt for a fairly predictable sleep attempt. Sleep is probably only somewhat useful in teams most likely in a 2v1...I just can't see it being useful (regardless of hitbox size) other than that situation...it's just a bad move.
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
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Messages
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North Carolina
XSilvenX, perhaps you would benefit from reading my posts? Not once have I actually asked for a buff to ANYTHING except aerial mobility, with a "less winddown on grabs would be nice" comment. I don't mind criticism, but I do mind criticism when it is clearly evident that the critic hasn't so much as bothered to read my comments. I have stated that jigglypuff has the worst ground game, hands down. And so what? I haven't asked for a single buff in that department. Now please, it'd be nice if you stopped flaming me, got your head out of your ***, and realized that perhaps I have something to contribute.

Edit: Buy me a capture card and I'll give you vids out the wazoo :v
And seriously, read my posts. Don't tell me to "listen to Glick" when I have raised up every single point he has and our opinions are in complete concordance.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
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Cleveland, Ohio
I'm gonna talk to almas and then next person that disregards posts saying so and so is awful or the worst is gonna get modded. It's rude and doesn't help anyone. Argue the points not the person.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
Premium
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Rochester, NY
The only thing jiggz needs is increased aerial mobility. Her rest is fine, her grab windown is fine, sing is fine. She is supposed to have useless moves+ sheild break because it is supposed to compensate for her rest and combos. Her character is high risk high rewards.

The reasoning behind jiggz needing increased aerial mobility(not even speed) is because YOSHI has better aerial mobility. This is just something sakurai put in because he likes to **** on all the "broken" characters from melee. He did the same thing to CFs knee and jiggz rest. She needs the mobility in the fast paced world of brawl+. I'm not asking for the aerial mobility of wario, but take a look at jiggz in melee and jiggz in brawl. She is not supposed to change direction so slowly in the air. She is the slowest character on the ground(even slower then ganon) and she needs to be able to change direction quickly to avoid getting hit. (since she's also the lightest character in the game). This also is important because she needs to escape the opponent after she puts in pokes. (similar to what wario does with his fair). This wont make her rest combos any more broken, as she isn't going any faster, she is just changing directions faster and giving the user a better sense of control.


DK NEEDS A NERF. I'm sorry, I've been playing with DK and against DK. His combos are INSANE. He is heavy, has fast moves, has RIDICULOUS combos(cargoupthrow to up air up air up air up air etc etc), and kills early. I have NO idea why you thought it was a good idea to not put him into a free fall after his donkey punch in mid air. There is NO reason why one of the best characters in the game so far(next to 2 or 3 others) should have unnecessary buffs like that. IMO he needs a bit more landing lag on his up air. more aerial lag on his bair and up air. The damage on up and bair could be decreased a bit, while keeping the knock back. Just the fact that he can do combos that he could only do to fox in melee to almost EVERYONE is obscene and uncalled for. His down smash needs to not kill like it does. I can be send them sideways like it does in melee.

That's about it. I have no personal vendetta against DK. I play with him often, and he is honestly a bit too good. Also, fix lucarios auto snap. I know it has something to do with that being write-protected but its not that fair that he can auto snap while everyone else cant. lol. Sorry If I just stated the obvious with that but its apparent that the auto snap on his up b needs to go.

OK. That is all. Please take my jigglypuff insight seriously. I feel like its the only thing she needs to be able to compete with some of the other characters in this game.
How about the fact that DK is a HUGE target, heavy, all of his attacks extend his hurtbox, and a predicable and linear recovery for balancing his character?

He is really easy to combo, and easy to gimp if the DK player doesn't time the recovery perfectly to snap on the ledge (and even if they do, its pretty easy to just spike him while he is flying towards the edge). He has incredible range, but his range comes at the cost of extended hurtboxes unlike Marth or MK who have disjointed swords. If you want to see how much extended hitboxes can hurt him, just go Wario and see how many things you can bite him out of; even the Punch if it isn't fully charged (if he swings his arms 9 times it is the strongest, but 10 times gives him super armor).

Look at vBrawl for another example. DK's Bair has amazing range. Even if he PERFECTLY spaces the move, DDD can just toss out a grab and start the infinite, and all because his hitboxes are also his hurtboxes.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
If you take a look at the results for BtL, you'll notice that one DK player got 17th, the next 25th. He's got a lot going for him, of course. However, he's a huge juggle-able target with nearly-fully-horizontal recovery that's begging to be intercepted. He's nowhere near 2nd/3rd/4th best in the game. Probably with the top 15ish. If you need to counter him, try someone with a speedy combo game and good spikes or gimping tools.

As for Lucario's recovery, when we said that we couldn't change it due to it being write-protected, we really meant that we couldn't change it due to it being write detected. The coders working on this project have done many miraculous things that we didn't think were possible before, but this is one of the things that there just may not be any way around, no matter how "fair" or "unfair" the problem.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
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Mar 20, 2006
Messages
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Playing melee and smash ultimate
jiggs is already good. if you want buffs for anything..maybe her ground game? she's a pretty aerial based character and buffing any character in an area where they are already good is OP'd. its not his sing requests but giving jiggs more aerial mobility which is stupid because she's already good in that area.
Um... no? I'm really glad you're not in the broom because you have no idea what you're talking about. Buffing a character's weaknesses is what makes them broken. Buffing a character's strengths while retaining their weaknesses leads to a balanced character (assuming the character was deserving of buffs to begin with). If we were suddenly giving jiggs an amazing ground game, then you'd be breaking her by making her options too good and you would furthermore be breaking her playstyle. She isn't a ground based character by any means, and it should stay that way. A character's strengths should be buffed whenever possible, rather than covering up their weaknesses, which only serves to homogenize the game, as well as break characters that already have solid strengths.

Silven said:
btw Newsflash - Sing is supposed to be useless :-\.

Why is the common Brawl+ mentality to give every situational move a use further than necessary? Why does the sing hitbox have to be bigger? I mean it won't make a difference because no good player in their right mind will be caught dead trying to sing off ledge because it's doesn't work, you're basically leaving yourself open to a fsmash or ftilt for a fairly predictable sleep attempt. Sleep is probably only somewhat useful in teams most likely in a 2v1...I just can't see it being useful (regardless of hitbox size) no matter what...it's just a bad move.
Ok... then what's the problem? It will still be a horribly situational move even with a bigger hitbox so why are you complaining about it being given the possibility to be useful at least in some rare situations? It's not even like we'd be making the move into one of her staple moves that she uses all the time. It would still be rarely used and very situational, just not as situational.
 

XSilvenX

Smash Lord
Joined
May 29, 2007
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Brooklyn, New York
XSilvenX, perhaps you would benefit from reading my posts? Not once have I actually asked for a buff to ANYTHING except aerial mobility, with a "less winddown on grabs would be nice" comment. I don't mind criticism, but I do mind criticism when it is clearly evident that the critic hasn't so much as bothered to read my comments. I have stated that jigglypuff has the worst ground game, hands down. And so what? I haven't asked for a single buff in that department. Now please, it'd be nice if you stopped flaming me, got your head out of your ***, and realized that perhaps I have something to contribute.
LOL trust me I read your posts dude. I read a lot of your posts and you're always making Jiggs out to be bad for some reason or another. You want ground game buffs when Jiggs doesn't even need it. With her you're gonna be in the air like 90% of the match so it's funny to me why she needs better ground moves when most of her ground moves send the character in the air at great trajectories for more aerials but let's ignore that and pretend she did have a better "ground game". Will you see jiggs players stick to the ground more and try to outrange/outprioritize characters on the ground like the good ground based characters can already do? Nope..won't change much. If you think about it, for jiggs to be an amazing aerial character and an amazing ground character it just sounds too good on paper. Learn to utilize what your character has and be amazing enough to cover up the character's failures... .02 cents ^_~


I'm gonna talk to almas and then next person that disregards posts saying so and so is awful or the worst is gonna get modded. It's rude and doesn't help anyone. Argue the points not the person.


Read my post, It's not a personal attack nor did I disregard what he said. I also did focus more on the point than Ark.. :ohwell:(Lrn2read.com)

But yeah, I personally think player skill has a lot to do with the legitimacy of the claim so that's why I asked for the vids. If I see that he's playing Jiggs badly in the vid then it will be obvious why he posts what he does... ;)

Ok... then what's the problem? It will still be a horribly situational move even with a bigger hitbox so why are you complaining about it being given the possibility to be useful at least in some rare situations? It's not even like we'd be making the move into one of her staple moves that she uses all the time. It would still be rarely used and very situational, just not as situational.
Hmm good point lol go ahead and change the hitbox of a useless move. :)
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
Location
North Carolina
LOL trust me I read your posts dude. I read a lot of your posts and you're always making Jiggs out to be bad for some reason or another. You want ground game buffs when Jiggs doesn't even need it. With her you're gonna be in the air like 90% of the match so it's funny to me why she needs better ground moves when most of her ground moves send the character in the air at great trajectories for more aerials but let's ignore that and pretend she did have a better "ground game". Will you see jiggs players stick to the ground more and try to outrange/outprioritize characters on the ground like the good ground based characters can already do? Nope..won't change much. If you think about it, for jiggs to be an amazing aerial character and an amazing ground character it just sounds too good on paper. Learn to utilize what your character has and be amazing enough to cover up the character's failures... .02 cents ^_~
I'm pretty sure you didn't read ANY of my posts. Including, ironically enough, the post that told you to read my posts. In fact, the words at the beginning of your statement, "you want ground game buffs", has specifically shown without a doubt that you have not read my posts. Then you go on this long rant about how giving jigglypuff a ground game is stupid and worthless.

Guess what?

I DO NOT WANT GROUND GAME BUFFS FOR JIGGLYPUFF

In fact, the SOLE BUFF I want for Jigglypuff is INCREASED AIR MOBILITY.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

Seriously, take your own advice. lrn2read.com
 

XSilvenX

Smash Lord
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
1,166
Location
Brooklyn, New York
^_^ Nice one, you reflected my joke at me. You're awesome.


I could have sworn you asked for an uptilt hitbox buff a few pages back with a good chunk of text saying how much she sucks on ground blah blah...you might have not technically asked for ground buffs but you focused on it a lot in some of the posts I read a while back...

Ah well...


Well, the main thing I want for jiggly's dair is for it to combo like fox's dair. It doesn't really work that well as a combo move onstage.
Seriously, though, does anyone mind slightly increasing rest's hitbox to be her entire body? It's incredibly irritating when you miss half the time when it should have hit.
Yes, Jigglypuff is a complete aerial character. Still, though, there are occasions where air is restricted or you just want to duke it out in good old manly fisticuffs with the opponent.

It is times like that when I look at Kirby and go "**** you and your fsmash, Kirby. **** you."
Honestly, I don't care about her ground game. I just wish she could combo from grabs.

THOUGH A GROUND GAME WOULD STILL BE AWESOME. I want kirby fsmash.

:ohwell:

You seem to change your mind on what you want for Jigglypuff a lot. You want aerial mobility now. What's next? By the way from what I saw in the last few pages I've searched (ctrl+f ftw) you spam a lot :) and you try to cover it up with useless insight on characters you most likely don't play so it doesn't exactly look like you're spamming. Nice job ^_^. You'll get your 2k posts soon enough buddy.
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
Location
North Carolina
I love how you go back several pages for no reason aside from digging up a bunch of my posts, quoting them out of context, and then trying to use that to enlargen your own epeen. Good job. Have you ever thought that perhaps, after making a suggestion, I actually *gasp* LISTEN *gasp* to things people say and realize that it's not all that I thought it was?

I know, I actually listen to people. Shocking concept, isn't it?
 

Glick

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
1,186
Location
Brooklyn, NY
How about the fact that DK is a HUGE target, heavy, all of his attacks extend his hurtbox, and a predicable and linear recovery for balancing his character?

He is really easy to combo, and easy to gimp if the DK player doesn't time the recovery perfectly to snap on the ledge (and even if they do, its pretty easy to just spike him while he is flying towards the edge). He has incredible range, but his range comes at the cost of extended hurtboxes unlike Marth or MK who have disjointed swords. If you want to see how much extended hitboxes can hurt him, just go Wario and see how many things you can bite him out of; even the Punch if it isn't fully charged (if he swings his arms 9 times it is the strongest, but 10 times gives him super armor).

Look at vBrawl for another example. DK's Bair has amazing range. Even if he PERFECTLY spaces the move, DDD can just toss out a grab and start the infinite, and all because his hitboxes are also his hurtboxes.
If you take a look at the results for BtL, you'll notice that one DK player got 17th, the next 25th. He's got a lot going for him, of course. However, he's a huge juggle-able target with nearly-fully-horizontal recovery that's begging to be intercepted. He's nowhere near 2nd/3rd/4th best in the game. Probably with the top 15ish. If you need to counter him, try someone with a speedy combo game and good spikes or gimping tools.

As for Lucario's recovery, when we said that we couldn't change it due to it being write-protected, we really meant that we couldn't change it due to it being write detected. The coders working on this project have done many miraculous things that we didn't think were possible before, but this is one of the things that there just may not be any way around, no matter how "fair" or "unfair" the problem.
I see your point of view on the DK. And I agree. Try vsing zelda with DK. :/

It isn't pretty. Every one of DKs moves gets intercepted by zeldas Fsmash. I guess I was just frustrated at how easy it is to preform a 0 to death with DK(literally just cargo up throw to donkey punch at a medium percent). I think MasterRaven is just too good. That may be just it. Hah anyway.

As far as lucario is. I'm not seriously complaining about it. Of course its unfair, but if there isn't anything you can do about it then we will just deal with it. It isn't like holy **** hacks but it certainly gives lucario handicap as far as getting onto the ledge.


Well, ignore all my ill-advised changes on characters I don't main.

Focus on what I said about jigglypuff please.
I've been maining jigglypuff since Smash64 and I wouldn't tell you guys to buff jiggz if it wasn't absolutely necessary. Just adding a small amount of aerial mobility to jigglypuff would give skilled jigglypuff users more options on approaching in the air(which is the only place she can safely approach). Which is in fact jigglypuffs specialty. She is allowed to have a bad ground game because her air game is supposed to be so amazing. She needs something to make her just as good as wario. That way picking between them becomes more on preference then weather or not one is better then the other. (which is the point of this entire project, correct?)


Jigglypuff with bad aerial mobility in brawl+ is like.....

giving alakazam bad special attack.

AMIRITE

Hopefully that shed some light on this topic.

ALSO: SILVEN stop fighting with people. Are you coming to my place on tuesday? Guru and black are coming. be there or be square!
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
Location
North Carolina
Jigglypuff with bad aerial mobility in brawl+ is like.....

giving alakazam bad special attack.

AMIRITE
YOU R RITE <3

Silven, seriously, just drop it. I don't care, since you have no constructive input on Jigglypuff. Come up with something resembling a decent argument and I'll pay attention to you.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
just so you guys knows. When you say to give her more aerial mobility, we don't really know how to do that. If we decrease her air friction, she'll die earlier too :p

So yea, giving her more aerial mobility isn't something you just point a stick at and it happens.
 
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