Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[[FBC] ESAM]

Hell...Jigglypuff doesn't even need more aerial SPEED, just easier turning so she can weave in and out. Idk if you can have one without the other...but it really isn't a big deal to add that anyway. She doesn't need to have a ground game, she doesn't need a bigger rest hitbox, she doesn't NEED anything, but the aerial mobility would make her seem more like her instead of like a severely dumbed down version of Melee.

Ark, not bashing you, but maybe you should have something to say that isn't about jigglypuff so people don't think you are meatriding her as much. I play her too, but I don't necessarily keep my comments about B+ to just her...

I have nobody to play B+ against in my house cuz my brother is pissed that they made fox harder to use because he doesn't want to learn a new game apparently...so i can't really say anything that is more broken or needs buffs in the new version...

just so you guys knows. When you say to give her more aerial mobility, we don't really know how to do that. If we decrease her air friction, she'll die earlier too

So yea, giving her more aerial mobility isn't something you just point a stick at and it happens.

So you can't just add weight to her if you do that? I mean...wario is MUCH heavier than jiggles and yet he has more aerial mobility...

 

[Revven]

Weight has nothing to do with aerial mobility, it's a completely different variable in the game. Take Phantom Wings' Super Captain Falcon code, he enhanced Falcon's air speed by a **** ton without even touching the ground speed. I am pretty sure PW's Super CF code modifies Falcon's aerial speed but, not how well he can weave in and out. Though, it's been awhile since I've used it so, I may be wrong on the weave in and out part.

 

[Cytrs]

He meant increase both so that shes heavier AND slides through the air.

edit: making her (hopefully) the same weightish for ko percents, but like wario's slippedyness.

 

[Revven]

Increasing her weight gets rid of her weakness: being light...

 

[Yingyay]

Leave jiggz alone. Argument done.

So are you guys leaving marth's DB 4th down alone the way it is? A few of my friends (ones that main marth) complained that it pushes people too far back and is punishable even after connecting with it.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Increasing her weight gets rid of her weakness: being light...

Did you read the past like 4 pages? Shanus (Or Neko) said that they couldn't increase her aerial mobility without making her lighter, so we said that if it has to make her lighter, use something to make her back to her normal weight since i'm pretty sure they can change that

 

[CountKaiser]

Isn't the things that determines the ability to weave in and out aerial acceleration? At least, that's what Dark Sonic was telling me when I brought up Ness to him.

 

[Yingyay]

Leave jiggz alone. Argument done.

So are you guys leaving marth's DB 4th down alone the way it is? A few of my friends (ones that main marth) complained that it pushes people too far back and is punishable even after connecting with it.

This anybody? Or was it already addressed?

 

[CountKaiser]

Didn't they already fix the DB 4th hit down?

EDIT: BTW, concerning G&W's dthrow and Sonic's dthrow, wouldn't it be better to just speed up the endlag of both throws rather than simply speeding up the entire throw? Just a thought I had.

 

[Cytrs]

but the decreased friction makes her move through the air faster, so shed still be like the same weight/everything else besides air mobility if you increased her jump strength.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Yeah, G&W kind of loses the mindgame potential when his tech chase throw is twice as fast.

It couldn't be more predictable if he had a neon dthrow sign. >.>

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Um... no? I'm really glad you're not in the broom because you have no idea what you're talking about. Buffing a character's weaknesses is what makes them broken. Buffing a character's strengths while retaining their weaknesses leads to a balanced character (assuming the character was deserving of buffs to begin with). If we were suddenly giving jiggs an amazing ground game, then you'd be breaking her by making her options too good and you would furthermore be breaking her playstyle. She isn't a ground based character by any means, and it should stay that way. A character's strengths should be buffed whenever possible, rather than covering up their weaknesses, which only serves to homogenize the game, as well as break characters that already have solid strengths.

I figured since lucario, someone who had a weak recovery got buffed by the members of the backroom that you'd probably do the same to jiggs. along with other characters like ganon who was weak in the recovery department getting infinite jump recovery so don't even try to say "buffing a characters weakeness makes them broken" when b+ has been doing this all along.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, G&W kind of loses the mindgame potential when his tech chase throw is twice as fast.

It couldn't be more predictable if he had a neon dthrow sign. >.>

I don't think anyone doesn't try to tech every throw, regardless of where they think it will throw them, because it will probably always be a dthrow, so, no mindgame potential (Unless they don't know the matchup).

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Yeah, G&W kind of loses the mindgame potential when his tech chase throw is twice as fast.

It couldn't be more predictable if he had a neon dthrow sign. >.>

This. Would it be possible to speed up all of G&W's throws to the same level as his dthrow as to keep the 'mindgamey' effects of his old throws while keeping his tech chasing viable?

EDIT: actually CountKaiser's idea works too.

 

[Glick]

No no no. I hate people who try to help jigglypuff. They say the wrong things, and then the entire majority looks stupid who is trying to help jiggz. Wario isn't faster then jiggz in the air. But he can weave in and out better. THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED.

Not her weight! She is supposed to be light!
Don't say "leave jiggz alone" just because people start blurting out bull**** about her needing more weight.

EVERYTHING ABOUT HER IS FINE. except for air mobility.

Weather it's fixed now or later, it has to be done.

That is all.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

also, when you guys buffed zeldas upb lol. I mean some characters weaknesses got buffed so you can't just openly attack me saying "oh im glad you're not in the backroom because of x y and z". As the old saying goes, if you can't beat em join.

 

[Cytrs]

the weight shouldnt change death % though, because of the decreased friction. but i just thought about it and the jumps shouldn't be stronger because of less friction.

 

[Arkaether]

shanus: Does air friction only modify air speed, or air mobility? By mobility, I meant more along the lines of how wario can turn on a dime in midair, rather than how fast a character can move in the air.

Falco400: Increasing her weight wouldn't get rid of the "being light" aspect because her decreased aerial friction would make her die just as fast. Think about it like the recent squirtle/fox nerfs; they do less damage, so have less KB, but BKB and KBG were increased to compensate so the moves feel exactly the same.

ESAM: The reason I'm only pushing jigglypuff is because I feel she's an incomplete character as of now. Once I'm satisfied with her, I'll move on to another character. Besides, I contribute to discussions about a lot of characters, I just don't propose changes for them. I prefer to think that the mains of a character are the most qualified to propose changes.

 

[Glick]

I mean, as of now she is tourny viable. I'm not saying she is captain falcon in brawl bad, but adding more aerial mobility, even if its not much at all (when you guys figure it out). Adding a bit more aerial mobility would help her with approaches and acting like wario in the air (like she did in melee).

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

ESAM: The reason I'm only pushing jigglypuff is because I feel she's an incomplete character as of now. Once I'm satisfied with her, I'll move on to another character. Besides, I contribute to discussions about a lot of characters, I just don't propose changes for them. I prefer to think that the mains of a character are the most qualified to propose changes.

I agree with you on this. because the person who mains the character should know them best, but people are still gonna critique if it sounds rediculous. kinda like when you wanted a ground game buff (and me but I was only using my post as an example and not really asking for anything).

 

[Arkaether]

I never actually wanted a ground game. I just said that it'd be nice if she had one. Which I knew would never be accepted, but I said anyway for the heck of it. Kind of like how it'd be nice if they increased the Rest hitbox to the size of FD, but that never going to be accepted anyway.

That said, aside from utilt (which was, I admit, not really that good of an idea), aerial mobility is the only other buff I'm really pushing for. The others are just "OH LAWL IT'D BE NICE WOULDN'T IT :V"

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

er so can falcon get an infinite jump recovery? its pretty easy to speed hug cf's recovery but now with the default ledge invinsibility and no ASL its even easier. for those who don't know its when he gets an extra jump in the air after using falcon kick. also, anyway to give people back their jumps after ganon/falcon use upb on them?

 

[shanus]

The ledge invuln time is gonna be dropped Skip. Its a bit too steep as is currently.

Regarding air friction, I have no idea as we never really played it. Regardless, it won't let her be able to air pivot as well, I'm not really sure what will fix her. Maybe some animation ID effects it (off to read some)

Edit: nope, i have -zero- ideas on how to approach it. Someone with a gecko would have to search, but from what I remember, it wasn't a fruitful search in the past.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

try 75% of the current ledge invincibility I think 50 was too small but default is too much. but even so, why is it that ganon who's down b has way more used than falcons anyway gets the infinite jump recovery but falcon doesn't? ganon's has good kb, reduced landing lag, infinite jump recovery, it can spike, while all I really want is for falcon to receive his jump back.

 

[metaXzero]

try 75% of the current ledge invincibility I think 50 was too small but default is too much. but even so, why is it that ganon who's down b has way more used than falcons anyway gets the infinite jump recovery but falcon doesn't? ganon's has good kb, reduced landing lag, infinite jump recovery, it can spike, while all I really want is for falcon to receive his jump back.

They're going to tell you that Falcon's down-B recovery has no utility due to it's steep descent and that Falcon is good enough.

I can't see Falcon losing his recovery weakness with it though.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

They're going to tell you that Falcon's down-B recovery has no utility due to it's steep descent and that Falcon is good enough.

I can't see Falcon losing his recovery weakness with it though.

it'd give you another jump, if you get hit after your second jump offstage with falcon, even if you di correctly and put you in the higher corners of the screen you're going to be coming downward regaurdless. its not like he has projectiles to help him in this situation, or some air stalling manuever. you just come back and aim for a sweetspot, and even still after he reaches a certain point in his up b, just speedhug the stage and he's a goner because he doesn't continually attack in his upb, its more like "from this moment to that moment" then there's a no moment.

edit: also it doesn't remove his recover weakness, it helps him. falcon is still combo'd easily and cg'd but he can combo well. I don't mind being cg'd since you can di from most characters away, but when you di away you are basically led offstage which would help, not eliminate the weakness.

 

[metaXzero]

Like I said, any suggestions like giving him his 2nd jump after Down-B always get a "Falcon is good enough. No buffing" and the occasional "Down-B goes too far down for it to help" reply. I'd like to see Falcon get it, but it seems unlikely with the attitude it recieves.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Like I said, any suggestions like giving him his 2nd jump after Down-B always get a "Falcon is good enough. No buffing" and the occasional "Down-B goes too far down for it to help" reply. I'd like to see Falcon get it, but it seems unlikely with the attitude it recieves.

its because people who don't main the guy feel they know everything about him. and whenever they say falcon is good they link me to some guy using him who is by FAR better than the people they are playing.

 

[leafgreen386]

Personally, I have no qualms with giving falcon the downB jump reset. It would let him mix up his recovery a bit more, but it really wouldn't be that big of an asset to him.

I figured since lucario, someone who had a weak recovery got buffed by the members of the backroom that you'd probably do the same to jiggs. along with other characters like ganon who was weak in the recovery department getting infinite jump recovery so don't even try to say "buffing a characters weakeness makes them broken" when b+ has been doing this all along.

Lucario's upB buff was done for its offensive applications. The recovery boost is a side-effect. Ganon receiving the jump reset may give him a more varied recovery, but he still gets edgeguarded just as hard with it as he did without it. And zelda's upB buff got removed, afaik.

Yes, brawl+ has buffed weaknesses, but it has not done so as a primary method of buffing characters. In the cases where weaknesses have been buffed, it was either very minor (see: ganon) or because the character sucked in general and buffing just about anything would have been buffing a weakness (see: link). In only the most severe cases (again, see: link), have weaknesses been turned into strengths (namely, his ability to actually combo off of... moves, and the improvement to his kill power), but in general, the characters still retain their existing weaknesses (for link, we retained his slow speed, his easy-to-combo self, and his horrid recovery).

 

[Arkaether]

I must say that I support the falcon downb jump reset as well. It doesn't actually help him very much at all, but it serves as a slight variation to recovery so he wouldn't be so predictably easy to gimp/hog/kill. Especially considering that his little flip at the end of his upB does nothing whatsoever and he's one of the easiest characters to gimp.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'd rather help Falcon in other ways if we can. I think it should stay Ganon's thing to help differentiate clones. I keep saying, this wouldn't be discussed if Ganon and Falcon weren't clones. Different characters, different strengths. I'd rather try and buff something else of Falcon's before we resort to an easy and lazy fix.

 

[GHNeko]

Buff falcon's priority. Give him a few disjointed and commonly used moves. :V

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I'd rather help Falcon in other ways if we can. I think it should stay Ganon's thing to help differentiate clones. I keep saying, this wouldn't be discussed if Ganon and Falcon weren't clones. Different characters, different strengths. I'd rather try and buff something else of Falcon's before we resort to an easy and lazy fix.

imo, falcon doesn't need buffs besides his jump reset. if anything i want his dash attack nerfed. dash attack combos are so..uninteresting.

 

[OmniOstrich]

Kirby was supposed to get a slight F-smash tone down when we buffed his n-air. It was on our to-do list and we just plum forgot when we released the set. Sorry guys.

To avoid getting infracted im bringing this discussion here.

NC-Echo didnt really need/use fsmash that much. It was mostly the grab combos and godly bair. He completely shut down squirtle and falcon (minus their grab combos) and all MK could do was dair and shuttle loop.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'd rather you post that in the plussery. So people know to look at his b-air and grab combos more. B-air can be adjusted if it's deemed too good. Throws, not so much.

 

[CountKaiser]

Buff falcon's priority. Give him a few disjointed and commonly used moves. :V

Make nair not suck and make it a good combo starter.

Problem solved.

 

[shanus]

Make nair not suck and make it a good combo starter.

Problem solved.

Every time someone says his nair sucks and isnt a combo starter I want to punch myself in the face.

Nair is an awesome move.

I reiterate, nair is awesome.

If you think its bad, you are wrong. First hit cancels are great for pop ups to grab, you can also use them to link to uair, you can use it for second hit spacing, and so on.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well then give the move some disjointedness.

Also, just took a look at Kirby's matchup thread in vBrawl. Apparently, his worst matchups were only 40:60, meaning he didn't really have a counter, just bad matchups. So it is indeed possible that Kirbs is broken.

Now then, what exactly makes him broken?

 

[Arkaether]

Bair, bair, bair, **** grab combos, fsmash, five jumps, aerial mobility, bair, fmash, nair in b+, fsmash, usmash, bair, and bair.

That's all I can think of, there might be a few more.

 

[CountKaiser]

I miss the days when people complained about G&W's bair.

How about we nerf Kirby's kill potential, mainly fsmash. He has 5 jumps, he should be able to gimp rather well as it is.