Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[GHNeko]

I'm so sick of that picture. Stop linking it. Just because Snake has lol tilts doesn't mean we need to adjust hitboxes to function like that. Protein makes a valid point.

(I agree with the Bowser buffs Shanus posted, just saying Protein's got a good point and I hate that Snake picture)

I was just posting that picture to shoot down what the guy said. I'm fine with his loltits. They just dont make sense. That's all.

:V

 

[Swordplay]

We discussed heavies a lot in the backroom last night and SHeLL and I are big heavy players. Fat girls need lovin too they say...

Anyway we came up with a few rough ideas and though I'm not going to share them here, but people are more then welcome to post their ideas on the heavies cause frankly besides for DK and Snake they are all very 'meh' in my opinion. I will say that one idea of a BR member was to buff their damage up and adjust the KB and stuff accordingly. Like, for example, Ganon's d-air would do 24% instead of 22%.

Heavies are unique and have never really been 'that' good in Smash games. Granted DK was the only on in 64 and Melee only had 3 but you get my point. Also, simple fact is more people play Marth, Fox, Falcon, Falco, and the others so it's just plain easier to balance and work with them. Every is getting their final polish overs and believe me, heavies won't be overlooked. If you are a heavy player (or a player of a relatively underplayed character) I suggest you try and provide feedback.

Kind of true. I'm a heavy main at heart. Link Ganon Ike Snake and Charzard and Yoshi.....are my core players. (I'd play DK and D3 but they don't come naturally to me)

I'm not in the WBR but I suppose I'll post my thoughts on each heavy quickly you can take them and roll or not, I don't care.

Anyway, the bowser hitbox changes thing, the main thing I think bowser needs is for his u-tilt hitbox to start infront of him so it can hit people. I don't think the U-smash really would help him.

I agree with you GOG on the issue that some heavies should just deal more damage like Ganon. But my approach would to just improve the priority of a few of there moves. You got little things like squirtle running around you that you just can't hit. More priority would help ganon get though some projectile walls and prority walls in order to help him get inside more.

D3 I think just needs more speed, I would use f-tilt because it has the possibility to be an awesome spacer. I think this because D3 has a very specific range he likes to play characters mostly do to his awesome grab range. A spacing move might help.

Charzard is plenty good. For me personally, I wish up-b had more speed so I could combo into it through

Ike is a character I have no idea what to do with. I feel if you buff him in any way he is overbuffed and if you nerf him he is over nerfed. Maybe something really suddle like making his counter faster.

Obviously people think Snake and DK are really good for heavies so I won't mention them.

 

[shanus]

Kind of true. I'm a heavy main at heart. Link Ganon Ike and Snake and Charzard are my core players. (I'd play DK and D3 but they don't come naturally to me)

I'm not in the WBR but I suppose I'll post my thoughts on each heavy quickly you can take them and roll or not, I don't care.

Anyway, the bowser hitbox changes thing, the main thing I think bowser needs is for his u-tilt hitbox to start infront of him so it can hit people. I don't think the U-smash really would help him.

I agree with you GOG on the issue that some heavies should just deal more damage like Ganon. But my approach would to just improve the priority of a few of there moves. You got little things like squirtle running around you that you just can't hit. More priority would help ganon get though some projectile walls and prority walls in order to help him get inside more.

D3 I think just needs more speed, I would use f-tilt because it has the possibility to be an awesome spacer. I think this because D3 has a very specific range he likes to play characters mostly do to his awesome grab range. A spacing move might help.

Charzard is plenty good. For me personally, I wish up-b had more speed so I could combo into it through

Ike is a character I have no idea what to do with. I feel if you buff him in any way he is overbuffed and if you nerf him he is over nerfed. Maybe something really suddle like making his counter faster.

Obviously people think Snake and DK are really good for heavies so I won't mention them.

Upsmash would be more useful. its two hitboxs already are good for AD punishing, but if they were a drop larger would do wonders.

 

[Jimbo_G]

This might be out of the question, but it's a thought.

What if you made Bowser's Down-B faster? Like, MUCH faster? Although I don't have the exact info, for example let's say it comes out around 40 frames (guesstimation). That's an awfully long time in-game and it's easy to see coming, especially since it's knock-back is only average. Speed it up to around frame 10 or so and suddenly it's a far scarier attack.

By speeding it up it would make Bowser far more dangerous to approach and combo from below, making him less punishable, and would be a welcome addition to his mind games. Bowser has always been weak from below and I think that's one of the main reasons he's so helpless most of the times. His Down-B will now become an ever-present and extremely quick threat that opponents must always be aware of.

It's cooldown can stay the same though. I always thought it was awfully long for how average it was, but with this speed boost it now becomes very risk-reward.

 

[GHNeko]

I suggested for Bowser Down B to have Heavy Armor frames. :V

 

[Kuga]

I suggested for Bowser Down B to have Heavy Armor frames. :V

+1 point agreed for u

 

[Melomaniacal]

Is it normal for the game to freeze very frequently after the winning screen? No buttons are being held, and I will still get a frozen game very often.

 

[shanus]

Is it normal for the game to freeze very frequently after the winning screen? No buttons are being held, and I will still get a frozen game very often.

It means your hitting directions with the control stick a lot. We know about it and are trying to fix it, its very infrequent but it means you or your friend likes to move directions a lot.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

bowsers downb on the ground should be like donkey kongs forwardb and stick ya lolz. maybe OP'd..but I got the idea from the super mario games

 

[Melomaniacal]

It means your hitting directions with the control stick a lot. We know about it and are trying to fix it, its very infrequent but it means you or your friend likes to move directions a lot.

Me and whoever I'm playing with always drop our controllers after the match ends, haha. We don't touch anything but start once we get to the victory screen.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I think that jigglypuff's rest hitbox should be her entire body. It wouldn't break it to any means, and it is really annoying to think you have the rest because you are touching the opponent...and then you don't. We took the fire effect and trajectory from melee, so why can't we take that too?

 

[Arkaether]

ESAM, you are my new best friend.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I think that jigglypuff's rest hitbox should be her entire body. It wouldn't break it to any means, and it is really annoying to think you have the rest because you are touching the opponent...and then you don't. We took the fire effect and trajectory from melee, so why can't we take that too?

jiggs can 0-death a lot of characters if you aren't careful with her.

 

[GHNeko]

jiggs can 0-death a lot of characters if you dont DI against her.

10outrangejiggsandsheloses


She does NOT need a larger rest hitbox. Stop encouraging ArkAether

 

[Magus420]

We took the fire effect and trajectory from melee, so why can't we take that too?

It was most likely smaller in Melee...

 

[Arkaether]

jiggs can 0-death a lot of characters if you aren't careful with her.

wat.

10goodluckhittingwithtinycloserangeuairhitbox.

Magus: Seriously?

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

10outrangejiggsandsheloses

why did you change it to "don't DI"? completely uncalled for but anyway my point was jiggs is good, no need for a larger rest hitbox when she CAN 0 TO DEATH. jiggs is perfect.

 

[GHNeko]

why did you change it to "don't DI"? completely uncalled for but anyway my point was jiggs is good, no need for a larger rest hitbox when she CAN 0 TO DEATH. jiggs is perfect.

I changed it to put emphasis on what you need to do against Jiggs. It wasnt aimed at you. Dont take it personally.

Also, get ***** Arkaether.


magus > you

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

ah ok, also did any1 read my bowser thing?? is it OP or even possible to do?

 

[Arkaether]

****, Magus just ***** my entire argument with a 6.7kb jpg.

 

[GHNeko]

ah ok, also did any1 read my bowser thing?? is it OP or even possible to do?

It's possible.

But not a good idea, as you can probably escape before bowser can do something.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I tried ark.

So how many more characters do you think need tweaking? I haven't played the new set since nobody in my house plays B+ anymore...

 

[GHNeko]

The whole roster.

We're going to keep tweaking until we go gold. And even then, we'll be tweaking.

 

[Arkaether]

The whole roster?

So how about that Jigglypuff.

 

[GHNeko]

Minor tweaks. Nothing major. That rest buff you want counts as major.

 

[Arkaether]

I was thinking more aerial mobility. Like, not as much as Wario, but a bit more than what she has now.

 

[GHNeko]

Build an argument as to why we should do that and we'll consider it. :3

 

[Arkaether]

Because she's slower than a dead doornail sitting in a pile of fermented molasses? And it'd be nice if she wasn't?

 

[GHNeko]

Build an arguement that matters and isnt heavily based upon personal opinion.

.__.

Do you want me to report you?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Uh... Jigglypuff's aerial movement is slow?
Since when?

 

[thesage]

@people who were saying Ness needs buffs: Ness is very balanced right now. He combos well from 0-40% and there's a 40% gap where he doesn't really combo that well then he ***** again. His recovery isn't as gayable but it's still fairly easy to edgeguard. He has a projectile that can force people to approach, but he can't camp with it. He has the mobility he needs, but he isn't overpowerlingly fast. His aerials might not have tons of range (fair doesn't count) but their quick and combotastic. Dair has a lot of startup lag, but 0 ending lag, so just be better at predicting.

Ness is basically decent at everything except combos (where he's really good) and recovery (where he sucks). He's easily combo'd, but his mobility and size makes him hard to hit.

Psi Magnet would still be useless even with increased startup lag. You should be approaching a projectile spammer or spam them back if you can. Or you could just pkt ledgestall. Ness isn't screwed over by projectiles anymore.

If people think Ness' pkt juggling is broken, they should learn how to handle it like din's fire. If a lvl 9 cpu can get out of it, so can a human player. Besides, Ness had pkt juggling in melee vs. Luigi and Samus and he STILL lost in those matchups lol.

TL,DR:The backroom needs to leave him alone. He's absolutely fine. It seems they are doing that since they haven't changed anything about him in the latest nightly build thread.

 

[Arkaether]

There's not much factual evidence I can get for physics feeling odd. It's a personal opinion thing. I'm just suggesting it so that if other people concur, it could be changed.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Well, I don't concur :]

 

[GHNeko]

There's not much factual evidence I can get for physics feeling odd. It's a personal opinion thing. I'm just suggesting it so that if other people concur, it could be changed.

Test out physics with her. We're moving on to readjusting character physics.

 

[HeroPenguin]

Test out physics with her. We're moving on to readjusting character physics.

On that note, a quick comment about Dedede. He fastfalls like a comet. I don't know about anyone else, but a big balloon of a penguin that flies by inflating himself... Doesn't seem like he should drop like a sack of rocks.

Also, I'm not sure about the validity of this one since I don't play him regularly, but Luigi seems to be able to fastfall before the peak of his midair jump. It's quite jarring when trying to recover using his downB and instead of floating upwards like some goofy helicopter, he falls like some vanilla top.

Will be testing the 5/27 build tomorrow. Paying special attention to Ivy and Lucario, with Marth on the side.

 

[CloneHat]

On that note, a quick comment about Dedede. He fastfalls like a comet. I don't know about anyone else, but a big balloon of a penguin that flies by inflating himself... Doesn't seem like he should drop like a sack of rocks.

Also, I'm not sure about the validity of this one since I don't play him regularly, but Luigi seems to be able to fastfall before the peak of his midair jump. It's quite jarring when trying to recover using his downB and instead of floating upwards like some goofy helicopter, he falls like some vanilla top.

Will be testing the 5/27 build tomorrow. Paying special attention to Ivy and Lucario, with Marth on the side.

Press DownB right after you initiate the jump, and tap B fast.

 

[proteininja]

@people who were saying Ness needs buffs: Ness is very balanced right now. He combos well from 0-40% and there's a 40% gap where he doesn't really combo that well then he ***** again. His recovery isn't as gayable but it's still fairly easy to edgeguard. He has a projectile that can force people to approach, but he can't camp with it. He has the mobility he needs, but he isn't overpowerlingly fast. His aerials might not have tons of range (fair doesn't count) but their quick and combotastic. Dair has a lot of startup lag, but 0 ending lag, so just be better at predicting.

Ness is basically decent at everything except combos (where he's really good) and recovery (where he sucks). He's easily combo'd, but his mobility and size makes him hard to hit.

Psi Magnet would still be useless even with increased startup lag. You should be approaching a projectile spammer or spam them back if you can. Or you could just pkt ledgestall. Ness isn't screwed over by projectiles anymore.

If people think Ness' pkt juggling is broken, they should learn how to handle it like din's fire. If a lvl 9 cpu can get out of it, so can a human player. Besides, Ness had pkt juggling in melee vs. Luigi and Samus and he STILL lost in those matchups lol.

TL,DR:The backroom needs to leave him alone. He's absolutely fine. It seems they are doing that since they haven't changed anything about him in the latest nightly build thread.

Your argument holds water Sage, BUT when placed beside a character like Zelda one begs the question "what level of balance is the br looking for?" They say Zelda is fine, and you say Ness is fine, but these two characters are far from balanced with each other, and I do not just mean matchup-wise. For almost every pro in ness there is a balancing con. for all of the pros of zelda there is but one con, she is easy to juggle.

So yes, she has a weakness, but Ness has many many weaknesses. So, if they balance everyone like they balanced Ness then good, but it seems they are going more the Zelda route. Giving characters a great variety of options with only one or maybe two glaring weaknesses. Ness has many many weaknesses.

1. Bad(gimpable) Recovery
2. Very, VERY situational b moves
3. Bad anti aerial ground game(yo-yo clanks with aerials)
4. Laggy and just plain not good ground moves
5. Easy to combo

Ness excels in his aerial game, but that cannot be applied on the whole because he cannot sh low enough or djc in order to do his aerials on ground level. If he could do that it would nullify some of the weaknesses of his ground game.

With all of that said however i do not want to make it sound like Ness is horrible. I think he is almost tournament viable if this beta was to go gold, but he just needs a little push into the middle area that all of the characters are heading for.

I really like that we are so close to balance that it is difficult to ascertain who is and isn't unbalanced at this point, and I hope this post gets us closer.

 

[bajisci]

edited for my inability to read XD

 

[proteininja]

bajsci, If you notice his ALR is down to 50 now form 30, so the changes aren't as drastic as you may think because he has more lag after aerials now.

I think he feels great right now, and I am excited to see his metagame solidify as I think he is no longer going to be changed drastically. Also, i think they may have improved the u-tilt to make it so it wasn't completely out shined by neutral b.

 

[thesage]

Your argument holds water Sage, BUT when placed beside a character like Zelda one begs the question "what level of balance is the br looking for?" They say Zelda is fine, and you say Ness is fine, but these two characters are far from balanced with each other, and I do not just mean matchup-wise. For almost every pro in ness there is a balancing con. for all of the pros of zelda there is but one con, she is easy to juggle.

Uh.... Zelda, out of all characters Zelda? I was reading that sentence and I expected a character like Shiek or Fox lol. Zelda isn't that good lol.

So yes, she has a weakness, but Ness has many many weaknesses. So, if they balance everyone like they balanced Ness then good, but it seems they are going more the Zelda route. Giving characters a great variety of options with only one or maybe two glaring weaknesses. Ness has many many weaknesses.

First of all Zelda has a lot of weaknesses:

Easy to combo
Light
Recovery is easy to edgeguard
Bad at approaching
Not that fast

1. Bad(gimpable) Recovery
2. Very, VERY situational b moves
3. Bad anti aerial ground game(yo-yo clanks with aerials)
4. Laggy and just plain not good ground moves
5. Easy to combo

1. A lot of other characters have bad recoveries now.
2. Pkt is not situational at all now. Pk flash is good at edgeguarding. Pk fire and PSI Magnet are situational but they're not absolutely useless (like Jiggs's d-tilt useless).
3. U-tilt, retreating fair and nair do that
4. U-tilt, running attack, jab, and running grab are good. F-tilt, bat, u-smash are decent. Everything else is situational or sucks. Considering Zelda's ground game (which consists of her smashes and maybe running attack) is not amazing either...
5. A lot of characters are easy to combo. His weight, size, and speed help him not be affected by this that much.

Ness excels in his aerial game, but that cannot be applied on the whole because he cannot sh low enough or djc in order to do his aerials on ground level. If he could do that it would nullify some of the weaknesses of his ground game.

Learn how to shff... Besides, most characters are aerial ones anyways.

With all of that said however i do not want to make it sound like Ness is horrible. I think he is almost tournament viable if this beta was to go gold, but he just needs a little push into the middle area that all of the characters are heading for.

I think he is tournament viable now. He's not too broken, but he's not bad. His pkt alone makes him mid tier now. I mean, it's a near guarenteed kill above 110 now if you hit with it vs. most characters.

I really like that we are so close to balance that it is difficult to ascertain who is and isn't unbalanced at this point, and I hope this post gets us closer.

There are some characters that suck (Boozer says hi) but I highly doubt Ness is one of them now. Let's see how he works out now. I'm practically the only brawl+ Ness that owns a hacked wii and plays vs. people who go to tournaments semi-regularly, so there's not that much info about him.