Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Almas]

Let's keep this thread to balance notes, not arbitrary ideas and off-topic comments about each other's preferences.

 

[_clinton]

I'm still hoping for a Frame 3 Ness PSI magnet activation (from frame 10)
Again I should point out that Lucas' Magnet has far more +s than Ness' magnet normally...

+Lucas' recovers more % than Ness'
+Lucas can use it for stalling (which actually does add a lot to his horizontal recovery), Ness can stall with his magnet...but because of the cool down time he can't add anything to his recovery
+Lucas' also has a pretty low cool down time as well (so it doesn't matter if you auto cancel it as much), Ness' puts him in 40 some odd frames of lag for each bad use of his magnet
+Lucas' is an ok low angle semi high knock back option, Ness' just has a shoddy little wind effect that does close to nothing...
+Lucas' absorbing hit box is larger than Ness'
+I haven't even brought up Magnet Pulling or any of that other stuff

I don't see any issue with giving Ness a frame 3 activation from his frame 10...really Lucas' starts on Frame 10 as well...

Again I should point out that my idea of making Ness' magnet have frame 3 activation isn't broken at all...most of the things Ness can absorb with his magnet don't even go beyond 10% of a recovery if that...

Plus I feel it would make Ness and Lucas more different still (because right now Lucas' magnet beats Ness' in every way you can think of other than having a wind effect...which he makes up for with a shock effect...that can gimp kill easier than the wind effect)

Also I have a request about PK Flash and PK Freeze...would it be possible to have better control over them?

They right now fly up from activation, and then start to drop slowly...while PK Flash happens to KO even with a less than 50% charge and flies up vertically more...PK Freeze flies horizontally more and at the best will KO at very high % (the best thing for Freeze is early % activation)

What I'm asking is...would it be possible to make PK Freeze and Flash more like PK Thunder in a way? Only w/o the recovery part?

Also I noticed some things with Sonic's homing attack special...it flat out misses certain foes if you use it up close right now...I don't know if you meant to do that...but I'm just pointing it out...

 

[Cytrs]

homing attack targets the back of an opponent, so it'll miss if equal level (or below/above, forgot which) facing towards you.

 

[camelot]

stuff about psi magnet

I always thought this. Lucas' PSI Magnet is literally superior in every way. I always thought it would be cool for Ness's PSI magnet to have an AoE attack after he ends it (I really doubt many others think this way). As of right now though, the wind is near useless, it needs to be better.

BTW, Lucas' recovers 2.5x damage, and Ness's is only 1.5x (max of 30% recovered for both of them)

 

[proteininja]

Ness still feels like he needs something. In my opinion DJC would be really nice, but I would like to also preserve the option to not DJC. Maybe a mixed approach to it.

Also, Yo-yo clanking with aerials and other moves totally sucks. Makes a character that is very vulnerable into one that is just plain easy to combo.

The multiple PKT1's helped him out greatly, but he still needs something. Whether it is a lower short hop or DJC or a more prioritized yoyo, I'm not good enough to judge, but I can't shake the feeling when I am playing my friend that i have to work twice as hard to be half as good as him.


PS I don't think nana is being affected by all of the codes yet.

 

[proteininja]

Can you make it so, that Bowser's fair feels like it should?
It doesn't do the satisfying sound like in Melee and the knockback is stupid. The angle should be so, that Bowser can actually KO early and doesn't send the opponent almost straight upwards (DI).
Also his Up-B is still not the good fortress. It needs more priority and the whole move should be sped up, so you do not actually get punished for a landed move on lower percents.

The whole Bowser in Brawl+ is just not that satisfying. Also his floatiness doesn't suit him.
That is not how Bowser is supposed to feel.

Wow, my thoughts exactly. When you guys get around to making Bowser feel more "natural" think about this.

When I say natural I'm talking about things like how Sonic plays now he just plain "feels right". I can't explain it. If you can balance this game, and get everyone to feel natural I think I would have a smashgasm (tm).

 

[shanus]

New Set is online now! Needs lots of testing, we are nearing an official build release.

 

[goodoldganon]

New Set is online now! Needs lots of testing, we are nearing an official build release.

Get pumped

Who the **** releases a set at 2:15 EST?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Lots of Ivysaur changes, I'll go try them out. Could you change the color of ones that specifically changed from the last build?

 

[metaXzero]

But I had just gotten around to using the last set at 1:30.

 

[cAm8ooo]

What was the reasoning behind the BKB increase on Kirby's uptilt?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Hmm.

Is the Sonic usmash spike coming back? I loved that thing. >_>

 

[metaXzero]

Hmm.

Is the Sonic usmash spike coming back? I loved that thing. >_>

I loved it too. But the Sonic mains HATED it.

Or at least the ones who like vBrawl Sonic.

 

[CountKaiser]

Did they even play brawl+? Sounds like they were theorycrafting, like Hylian was before he played it.

 

[Shaya]

(With the latest brawl+ release)
I don't know how/why, and I couldn't have it happen again.

But I set up a match, selected character, then pressed (held b) on the map screen, and brawl froze.
Is this common?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I'm getting freezes a lot myself.
Coming back from the Stage Select to the CSS and from the Victory Screen to the CSS. No irritating freeze noise on either one. Seems to happen at complete random at those spots.

 

[proteininja]

I have been getting those freezes too. Aparently if you hold a direction on the control stick when returnign to the css from the results screen the game freezes. One of the br guys said it was a result of the dash dance code.

Anyway, I'm really liking the Ivy changes. they decentralized his game from his leaves, and made him feel more natural. His moves can be used in the way i think they should be used by looking at them, and he feels alot better.

New Marth physics are sexy though I don't main him, so I can't say how good they are. haven't tested lucario physics.

I want to spread the word of b+, but things like IC's not working, the rocket noise, and random freezes are preventing me from inviting over the tournament organizers in tallahassee. I'm not asking for a finished product, but I would appreciate it if you guys focused on fixing what you broke before moving on to breaking other things. If the few glitches could be fixed I would feel fine showing them the current build(even though I still think Ness and Yoshi are needing a little love)

I trust you guys though, so please continue being awesome, making characters feel natural, and balancing the cast.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

not Dash Dance, Dash Cancel. The Dash Cancel code is not completely perfect ATM.

 

[Wingflier]

Great job on Brawl+ guys, it's been awesome so far!

I do have to say one thing though. In the 5-22 version of Brawl+, wolf is clearly imbalanced. He has amazing speed, ground smashes (his side smash in particular has huge range, comes out quickly, and does amazing damage and knockback), aerials, and useful special attacks. On top of this he is one of the heaviest characters in the game, has good falling speed, has a decent projectile, a reflector, a meteor smash, and good recovery.

In short, Wolf has no real weaknesses in Brawl+. You may recall that in original Brawl, he was one of the few characters who could actually combo because his moves had an above average hitstun which would allow you to hit your enemy multiple times before they could do anything. Now that in Brawl+ his hitstun has been increased significantly, he can combo you up to ridiculous percentages without any chance of retaliation.

Because of his lack of weaknesses, variety of strengths, and the massive duration of his hitstuns, he really needs some kind of nerf to be equal to the other characters.

I know many of you will probably disagree with me on this (especially Wolf players ;p)

But if so, let's discuss. In Brawl+, what weaknesses does Wolf really have?

After reading a few of the comments, I wanted to add a few more things before posting. First off, Wolf's recovery is NOT that bad. If anything it is average or maybe above average recovery. It's certainly no worse than Link's, Marth's, or Mario's, just to name a few. And besides, since he's the 4th heaviest character in the game, it wouldn't really make sense if he had godlike recovery would it?

Another thing that I have noticed about Wolf after playing with him a greater amount: Almost none of his moves have any start delay or recovery delay. In fact, he can spam his side smash (since it has such a huge range) FASTER than most characters can shield roll away from him! Have you seen how fast he can spam his up smash? He can literally do it multiple times per second.

My major point is this - Most characters are balanced by either giving them moves that come out quickly but have a short delay after they end (like Link). Or moves that have a delay before they happen but recover quickly afterwords (like Donkey Kong). I know of no characters like Wolf who gets the best of both worlds.

Let's recap:
Great Up-Smash
Great Side Smash
Great Down-Smash
Great Aerials
Great Meteor Smash
Great Knockback (on all his moves)
4th Heaviest Character (hard to knock off)
Massive Hitstun Durations
Good Recovery
Great Jump Height and Falling Speed
Good Projectile
Great Reflector Shield
Great Rolling Speed
Good Running Speed
Good Special Moves
No Starting Delay or Ending Delay

So besides his (I would say) above average recovery, which is equal in terms of usefulness to most other characters in the game, what real weakness does he have?

Wing

 

[KAN]

Let's keep this thread to balance notes, not arbitrary ideas and off-topic comments about each other's preferences.

Does that refer to my post?
Well, think about it:
I play a heavy spikeshelled turtle dragon. But it feels like a balloon...

- Bowser doesn't survive that much longer than Snake.
- Bowser feels like a ballon in the air
- Bowsers aerials have wierd knockback. They sent the enemy not like they should. Just try it...
- Bowser has no superarmor whatsoever even though he is a character that could need it and it fits him
(- Bowser's hits don't have the satisfying noises they had in Melee. :D)

Bowser is just totally different from before (Melee), and not a good sense of different but 'unfittingly different'.
Just my thoughts.
Other's do post their opinions here, too, you know...

 

[JCaesar]

meatriding wolf

Do you even play this game? Wolf is average.

- Bowser has no superarmor whatsoever even though he is a character that could need it and it fits him

Up-B has super-armor.

I agree though that Bowser doesn't feel quite right overall. Make a suggestion of how to fix him and the backroom will take it into account.

 

[Deleted member]

Great job on Brawl+ guys, it's been awesome so far!

I do have to say one thing though. In the 5-22 version of Brawl+, wolf is clearly imbalanced. He has amazing speed, ground smashes (his side smash in particular has huge range, comes out quickly, and does amazing damage and knockback), aerials, and useful special attacks. On top of this he is one of the heaviest characters in the game, has good falling speed, has a decent projectile, a reflector, a meteor smash, and good recovery.

In short, Wolf has no real weaknesses in Brawl+. You may recall that in original Brawl, he was one of the few characters who could actually combo because his moves had an above average hitstun which would allow you to hit your enemy multiple times before they could do anything. Now that in Brawl+ his hitstun has been increased significantly, he can combo you up to ridiculous percentages without any chance of retaliation.

Because of his lack of weaknesses, variety of strengths, and the massive duration of his hitstuns, he really needs some kind of nerf to be equal to the other characters.

I know many of you will probably disagree with me on this (especially Wolf players ;p)

But if so, let's discuss. In Brawl+, what weaknesses does Wolf really have?

After reading a few of the comments, I wanted to add a few more things before posting. First off, Wolf's recovery is NOT that bad. If anything it is average or maybe above average recovery. It's certainly no worse than Link's, Marth's, or Mario's, just to name a few. And besides, since he's the 4th heaviest character in the game, it wouldn't really make sense if he had godlike recovery would it?

Another thing that I have noticed about Wolf after playing with him a greater amount: Almost none of his moves have any start delay or recovery delay. In fact, he can spam his side smash (since it has such a huge range) FASTER than most characters can shield roll away from him! Have you seen how fast he can spam his up smash? He can literally do it multiple times per second.

My major point is this - Most characters are balanced by either giving them moves that come out quickly but have a short delay after they end (like Link). Or moves that have a delay before they happen but recover quickly afterwords (like Donkey Kong). I know of no characters like Wolf who gets the best of both worlds.

Let's recap:
Great Up-Smash
Great Side Smash
Great Down-Smash
Great Aerials
Great Meteor Smash
Great Knockback (on all his moves)
4th Heaviest Character (hard to knock off)
Massive Hitstun Durations
Good Recovery
Great Jump Height and Falling Speed
Good Projectile
Great Reflector Shield
Great Rolling Speed
Good Running Speed
Good Special Moves
No Starting Delay or Ending Delay

So besides his (I would say) above average recovery, which is equal in terms of usefulness to most other characters in the game, what real weakness does he have?

Wing

I'm not gonna look at your post count of 2 for a second (note that people will burn you down on that and say that you lack experience or something, I leave that to others to say).

- he does NOT have amazing speed, he doesn't even come close to marth, fox or MK. he is in the average league, more like ganondorf.
-has ground smashes? what do you even mean by that. yes his Fsmash is good, but you can't base your game around a single smash. there are also a LOT better smashes, MK Dsmash and fox Usmash to name a few.
-usefull specials. I don't really get what the point is here. very few characters have truly bad specials.
- a decent projectile. this is true, but you already claimed his usefull specials. don't say the same thing twice.
-reflector. see above, and I can also argue it to be the worst reflector of the spacies.
-he has A meteor smash? you bring it like only 3 characters have a meteor at all. his Dair (which I assume you meant here) is also not a very good meteor either.

then you say he has no real weaknesses which is simply not true, if you play against an actual wolf you can easily find holes in his "broken" game.
you tell me he has an amazing combo game. while he can combp well, there are so many characters that do better than him. even in vBrawl he wasn't the only one with true combos.

he really needs a nerf to be equa l with other chars? play fox or marth for a second please, and tell me you think he is that much better than them, or even better at all.

you say his recovery is above average. I agree, his recovery isn't that bad. but saying that it wouldn't make sense to have a good recovery because he is heavy is just nonsense. he also is 7th heaviest at best.

you come with the lack of startup or cooldown on his moves. take a look a his Dair will you, and tell me that it has no startup lag. and what is the point of mashing Usmash? you can't combo it into itself.
also Fsmash, being faster than rolls. I don't know who or what you play against but there is something called jump, and another thing called shield. tell your opponent to use it because Fsmash isn't hard to punish

getting the best of both worlds on moves that can easily be punished is not an advantage at all. see previous paragraph.

I'm not gonna recap on this because that is pointless.

at best wolf places somewhere in high tier, but not even close to top 10

Q.E.D.

 

[VietGeek]

I'm getting freezes a lot myself.
Coming back from the Stage Select to the CSS and from the Victory Screen to the CSS. No irritating freeze noise on either one. Seems to happen at complete random at those spots.

Then I'm assuming you compile your own GCTs with the Brawl+ .txts right?

Look at your text file:

Yeroc's Custom CSS V3 [spunit262] [17 lines]
0668310C 00000030
387E006C 3B600000
3C808068 38840DE0
7CBB20AE 7CA50775
41800014 94A30004
3B7B0001 2C1B0032
4180FFE8 48000038
04690338 48000068
066900d8 00000008
2c170028 41820168
02680DE0 0022FFFF
06680DE0 00000029
00090D0C 0515011A
0A071325 1002240E
0F140616 1F172903
040B1908 23201B5D
5E5C1121 18221226
27000000 00000000
 <--------- (Remove)
Custom Random V1 [spunit262] (10 Lines)
06685824 0000000C
3C608068 7C630214
88630E80 00000000
046857F0 3AE00028
06680E80 00000028
00090D0C 0515011A
0A071325 1002240E
0F140616 1F170304
0B190823 201B5D5E
5C112118 22122627

If done so, when you compile the .gct, there should be an option for both the custom CSS and the custom random. Whoever compiles the .txt files should fix this, since it has been happening since mid April lol. Those random characters are linking the Custom Random to the CSS comment, so it doesn't get activated and causes the game to go glitchy.

So yeah, remove the  and the space after it.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I loved it too. But the Sonic mains HATED it.

Or at least the ones who like vBrawl Sonic.

we have a Sonic main here in SC and he misses it too. I miss it as well, but I don't main Sonic...

still missing the Wolf reflector too, I dropped him cause of it : (

good **** so far I'm gonna try out this new Ivysaur later on. bair doing 5 instead of 2 sounds a bit much but I'll see what happens. (sorry for btching)

 

[KAN]

Up-B has super-armor.

Argh. The extreme priority from Melee was better. In Up-B the super armor is pretty useless...

I agree though that Bowser doesn't feel quite right overall. Make a suggestion of how to fix him and the backroom will take it into account.

Well, that is a bit much responsibility.
Maybe some more experienced players should do that.
I'll retest and take a few notes.
Is there a thread to discuss the altering of one character?

 

[bajisci]

I have been getting those freezes too. Aparently if you hold a direction on the control stick when returnign to the css from the results screen the game freezes. One of the br guys said it was a result of the dash dance code.

Anyway, I'm really liking the Ivy changes. they decentralized his game from his leaves, and made him feel more natural. His moves can be used in the way i think they should be used by looking at them, and he feels alot better.

New Marth physics are sexy though I don't main him, so I can't say how good they are. haven't tested lucario physics.

I want to spread the word of b+, but things like IC's not working, the rocket noise, and random freezes are preventing me from inviting over the tournament organizers in tallahassee. I'm not asking for a finished product, but I would appreciate it if you guys focused on fixing what you broke before moving on to breaking other things. If the few glitches could be fixed I would feel fine showing them the current build(even though I still think Ness and Yoshi are needing a little love)

I trust you guys though, so please continue being awesome, making characters feel natural, and balancing the cast.

yoshi is fine actually, he is a really good character surprisingly. he just gets camped kinda hard

ness however, kinda sucks

 

[Almas]

If you have well formatted notes, PM them to myself or Shanus, and we will ensure they get looked at. We will be releasing a new "official" set in the next couple of days, and that will be for structured responses only.

And no,

Let's keep this thread to balance notes, not arbitrary ideas and off-topic comments about each other's preferences.

was not directed at you. It was directed at:

not Dash Dance, Dash Cancel. The Dash Cancel code is not completely perfect ATM.

New Set is online now! Needs lots of testing, we are nearing an official build release.

Get pumped

Who the **** releases a set at 2:15 EST?

Lots of Ivysaur changes, I'll go try them out. Could you change the color of ones that specifically changed from the last build?

But I had just gotten around to using the last set at 1:30.

Did they even play brawl+? Sounds like they were theorycrafting, like Hylian was before he played it.

EDIT: Actually, nvm

I say stuff just to get a reaction out of people most of the time.

trust me, 90% of the time I know what I'm talking about, the other 10% is probably me posting when I'm high or something.

I want to ask again...can anyone get smash taunts to work? The codec calls and star fox calls specifically. I'm going back to vBrawl if we somehow got rid of them...

i honestly dont even remember how to do them ><

ive done the samus> zss one if thats relevant

japes is gonna suck no matter what lol. just watch the timer, you can keep track of the klaptrap that way, plus you can SDI it and tech the stage. its incredibly hard, but it can be done

i know u can track the klaptrap i just think it has potential to maybe be legit if it was frozen -_-

I think reversing it like Pirate Ship would keep the water moving. It's still not great, but it's better without the Klaptrap.

Anyone responding to the (very long) latter half of my post will be infracted for spam.

 

[OmniOstrich]

I agree though that Bowser doesn't feel quite right overall. Make a suggestion of how to fix him and the backroom will take it into account.

The way I see it there are 2 ways we can go about making bowser better.

1) Increasing his knockback to make him play similar to Ike/Ganon where a few well placed hits get your opponent to KO %

-or-​

2) Decrease his knockback to make him play similar to DK where you have several moves that combo nicely as well as multiple powerful KO moves

No matter what happens he needs more damage to his attacks. Here is a comparison of damage on all aerials, and tilts, as well as jab and dash attack of Snake, Bowser, and Dedede. All moves with realistic KO potential are *marked.

Notice that Snake and Dedede both have 5 moves with KO potential, and Bowser only has 3. Also notice that Bowser only has 2 moves that do more damage than Dedede and Snake.

 

[goodoldganon]

We discussed heavies a lot in the backroom last night and SHeLL and I are big heavy players. Fat girls need lovin too they say...

Anyway we came up with a few rough ideas and though I'm not going to share them here, but people are more then welcome to post their ideas on the heavies cause frankly besides for DK and Snake they are all very 'meh' in my opinion. I will say that one idea of a BR member was to buff their damage up and adjust the KB and stuff accordingly. Like, for example, Ganon's d-air would do 24% instead of 22%.

Heavies are unique and have never really been 'that' good in Smash games. Granted DK was the only on in 64 and Melee only had 3 but you get my point. Also, simple fact is more people play Marth, Fox, Falcon, Falco, and the others so it's just plain easier to balance and work with them. Every is getting their final polish overs and believe me, heavies won't be overlooked. If you are a heavy player (or a player of a relatively underplayed character) I suggest you try and provide feedback.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

the changelist for 5-22 and 5-27 are the same..
also i have a question does ganon have less lag on his down b when it hits the ground from the air?

 

[shanus]

A nice option for boozer I thought of is to increase the hitbox size for utilt and upsmash. Both are lacking in size and have great utility, this would really put the icing on the cake for him.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I agree with Shanus, I think Utilt should actually hit people in front of him.

 

[Blank Mauser]

we have a Sonic main here in SC and he misses it too. I miss it as well, but I don't main Sonic...

I still like the Usmash, and haven't seen much complaining about it from most B+'ers besides saying that Sonic doesn't need it because hes already good. If anything I'd take a tradeoff of a slower starting Usmash for the techchase setup over his nair change.

 

[proteininja]

I disagree with increasing hitbox sizes:

1. The current hitboxes make sense with the animations

2. It is unnecessary, and I believe we should limit hitbox size changes to a minimum

I think those moves are fine. Something I would like to see changed on Bowser would be the angle on his fair. It would be nice if it would hti more forward then up. Then you could combo of the stage and chase them out for the gimp ko. Right now the fair kb angle just doesnt make sense or feel natural. U air, Bair, Nair, feels great. Definitely needs help on fair and physics. Too floaty

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

also i have a question does ganon have less lag on his down b when it hits the ground from the air?

im not sure, i hope someone else is able to answer your question. although I do know he gets an infinite jump recovery while falcon does not.

 

[shanus]

Skip, he does have less landing lag on downBing into the ground.

Protein, we have only adjusted 1 hitbox size before. If you think about the problem with heavies, its they have little options to relieve pressure which is fine, but should be able to punish very well. Bowsers utilt and upsmash both have awesome utility for punishing air dodges, but both are fairly limited in their terrible hitbox size. (Seriously, you can be literally on top of some characters and use boozer utilt and it wont hit them). This change doesn't require boosting damage or speed, thereby not changing the flavor of what a heavy character is.

 

[goodoldganon]

Funny Skip...

Yes, Ganon's Down-B has less lag when hitting the stage. It also has less lag when used on the ground, the animations are tied together.

EDIT: Shanus is a ninja'ing tool

 

[GHNeko]

1. The current hitboxes make sense with the animationsy

:V


Also, move with larger hitboxes = better "priority"

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm so sick of that picture. Stop linking it. Just because Snake has lol tilts doesn't mean we need to adjust hitboxes to function like that. Protein makes a valid point.

(I agree with the Bowser buffs Shanus posted, just saying Protein's got a good point and I hate that Snake picture)

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

snake can barely kill now with his nerfs. lol. i have to camp like hell when i use him kinda like this one game i play where i camp a lot to use him.
edit: not saying to buff snake, just dont remove his windboxes. if you do remove them, then put them back to normal.

omg no way im editing the same post twice: can you guys fix TL's upsmash? like sometimes ill hit with it and it'll kill, and other times its MAD DOOKIE