You havnt watched good players then. And bowser has already gotten alot of buffs. I really dont see how you can say he hasnt. Just wait for the next set to see how they have been polished up.
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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)
- Thread starter shanus
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Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
No, those are hitboxes shown through phantom hit testing for every move (thanks DJBrowny). He got phantom hits at various ranges above, behind, and in front of Sonic. Assuming hitboxes are elliptical (like they were in melee, and I see no reason they would've changed it), then these hitboxes should be very accurate.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211629
Though they're hitboxes for vbrawl, we haven't changed any of Sonic's hitboxes in size. (Though Blank added a hitbox for the first 6 frames of SDJ)
And if you want to see a good Sonic, look at Blank's vids, as they're more recent (my vids are decent, but they're rather old <_<. I've gotten a lot better since then). Also (like with all characters), don't give any value to wifi matches <_<. Sonic really can't take advantage of his bait and punish game on wifi, since he relies a lot on visual cues.
/johns
timothyung
Smash Ace
Blank's Sonic make Sonic looks like Sonic
And those hitbox data seems accurate. Someone should find an effective and accurate way of showing hitboxes with GFXs though, it would be much easier.
And those hitbox data seems accurate. Someone should find an effective and accurate way of showing hitboxes with GFXs though, it would be much easier.
NC-Echo
Smash Lord
Very interesting read though I would still put him within the bottom group of characters. Question though, what is ASC?
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Aerial Spin Charge. It's his down B in the air.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ34M-Bdo6k Spincharge is down B. Spin dash is side B
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170844
Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r9HGU39qXo&feature=related
Yeah...Sonic's upsmash has invincibility frames <_< No range no priority no kill moves?
Doval
Smash Lord
Shield stun is based on %, not knockback. You can have an attack with the most ludicrous base knockback and knockback growth in the game, but if its damage is only 1% it's not gonna stun for ****. Of course Sonic's b-air probably does comparable % to the others, just pointing out it doesn't necessarily stun longer.
Solid points all around. I wasn't trying to imply Sonic is bad, just that to assert that he's good you need to say more than "his b-air is like Wolf's."
Also hitboxes were spherical in Melee, not elliptical. Not that it matters a whole lot but what's being represented as ellipses are probably several differently sized sphere hitboxes at different points of Sonic's body.
Good info by the way. I hadn't examined Sonic's moves all that closely yet, although I have used him from time to time. Since we've already started a Sonic discussion, I'd like to point out that Dash canceling really strengthened Sonic's grabbing ability too.
proteininja
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2009
- Messages
- 243
Update on the pending status of the next build?
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Either today or tomorrow, if they still have stuff to add in they will probably release it for that tournament anyways and then just patch the stuff in later.
proteininja
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2009
- Messages
- 243
I wouldn't have to ask if Shanus would just say It will be out be at x time. If he just gave enough time to get it all done perhaps even more than was needed. There wouldn't be so much pressure. Just say when it is coming, and if people ask you can respond with more than a stupid remark.
The Cape
Smash Master
Well the thing is, we are trying to put together some sidestep cleanups so they arent so spammable but its taking time. We have all the numbers to put them together, its just a matter of finding the right functions, testing them, etc.
Magus and I am diligently working on it now.
Magus and I am diligently working on it now.
Or you could stop asking and wait patiently rather than lashing out at a playful comment.
Check yourself.
We understand you guys want this released, but asking over and over isnt going to make it come out faster and all you're doing is +1postcount in a thread that you shouldn't be doing that in.
Social thread is V way.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Any other last minute additions?
proteininja
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2009
- Messages
- 243
Thankyou. All I wanted was an update, and i got it.
You can grab Sonic out of his spindash's though >_>?
Not the same as a spindash on the ledge of Yoshi's Island giving him iSDR, but still.
Triangle.
Aww matt4300.....you said yoshi?????? After all the Yoshi **** during our matches??????
Honestly I think sonic is fine.....I picked him up and became decent in about a week. Uair combo's spacing and crouch canceling into smashes. Seems to work for me.
Honestly I think sonic is fine.....I picked him up and became decent in about a week. Uair combo's spacing and crouch canceling into smashes. Seems to work for me.
Stevo
Smash Champion
thanks for your hard work
I am especially thankful that a small tweak to the sidesteps is happening as well.
I dont know jack **** about the programming and code modifying, but if you guys ever want some help testing things, or feedback on stuff or whatever, I do my schooling through correspondance, so I am sort of available all day.
Just throwing that out there, but like i said, I could only really test/give opinions on things.... and giving ones opinion DEFINATELY is not in demand in this thread....... lol
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Then don't mindlessly spam spindashes. Btw his spindashes are technically safe on block in brawl+ (or at least will be in the new set, since SDJ is getting a new hitbox to cover the first 6 frames which weren't covered before). Basically, if you're SDRing you'd just jump after hitting their shield to avoid getting shield grabbed. ASC and SD hop were already safe on block since you could jump cancel them before getting grabbed (Shield canceled ASC actually gives you a frame advantage and lets you grab them first
)meh, it's not a big deal. btw keep iSDR on the downlow. People still get thrown off by it
Geh... I know yoshi is good... Hes really good. Like I said though I was trying to come up with chars worse than mario... So I was nameing chars that have been thought of as bad... I was just trying to get to 12. Honestly I don't think theres anyway in hell mario is better than more than some of the chars I mentioned... With his difficulty of use, terrible killing options, mediocre recovery, medium weight, low range, meh projectile, slow spike. Not many chars are gonna beat that.
Come on neko give me your 12... I wanna see who you would go with...
I know a lot of Sonic-specific stage exploits that can fool anyoneThen don't mindlessly spam spindashes. Btw his spindashes are technically safe on block in brawl+ (or at least will be in the new set, since SDJ is getting a new hitbox to cover the first 6 frames which weren't covered before). Basically, if you're SDRing you'd just jump after hitting their shield to avoid getting shield grabbed. ASC and SD hop were already safe on block since you could jump cancel them before getting grabbed (Shield canceled ASC actually gives you a frame advantage and lets you grab them first
meh, it's not a big deal. btw keep iSDR on the downlow. People still get thrown off by it
Not just YI.Triangle.
Sails
Smash Ace
All this Sonic talk makes me want to play him...Hopefully you guys'll be updating the Sonic+ guide when this Bomb drops and I can try picking him up.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Are we naming 12 worse than Mario?
hmm in no order
Ike
DDD
Samus?
Bowser
Zelda?
Ivysuar?
Captain Falcon?
Link
Ness
Lucas
Ganon
Yoshi
The ones with question marks I'm not really sure about. Ice Climbers Though you guys have to remember that SOMEONE has to be at the bottom <_<. Rather than say "Mario is one of the worst characters and you should fix him," which leaves out all of the reasons WHY he's bad, you should be saying "Mario struggles against the majority of the cast because 1,2,3" so we'd know what to fix. I don't really see Mario as having terrible matchups across the board. Sometimes a character is low on the tier list simply because they don't have many (or any) ADVANTAGEOUS matchups, not because they're riddled by disadvantages. For instance
Check out Litchi, who is 4th from the bottom. She's got two 40-60s and one 45-55 for disadvantages. Everything else is even or better. So why is she not higher than Taokaka, who has more bad matchups than her? It's because Taokaka actually has advantages (a significant number of them), and those advantages outweigh her disadvantages, unlike Litchi who has few favorable matchups to speak of (one? And on the worst character?).
I think we're mearly seeing something similar with Mario, where he doesn't really get sizable advantages on many characters. He doesn't have a slew of good matchups to point to in order to say he's good, but that doesn't mean he's in desperate need of fixing either
my 2 cents
Do you know about the Pictochat and Rainbow Cruise ones? You can also do it off the head of the little boat that pops up on Pirate Ship. I've been trying to find more legal stages that allow me to iSDR, but not many legal stages have slopes Q_QI know a lot of Sonic-specific stage exploits that can fool anyone
Triangle.
So far I know you can do it on Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Pirate Ship, Pictochat, Yoshi's Island, and Delfino Plaza (off the golden upsidown semicircle transformation). If you find anymore on stages that might be legal (please don't mention Hanenbow or Hyrule Temple tricks) please let me know
Bowser
Yoshi
Link
Falcon
Ganon
Ike
ICs
Ness
Lucas
My other choices I thought about and I'm not completely sure about anymore because I dont know how they really stack up anymore, so I wont list them.
Ness is probably gonna be one of those characters once he gets DJC.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
ICs, really? Maybe you missed Apex...
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I don't think any characters are really bad right now, bud I do think some are too good. A brawl+ Tier list to me seems like it wouldn't even fit into 5 tiers, more like 3. That 3 tier tier list would be very bottom heavy as well, with maybe 6 characters in top, 6 characters in mid, and the rest in low. But at the same time the tiers will be much closer together, with th low tier people being fairly good. I would think of it more as top-high-mid rather than high-mid-low.
So what I'm saying is, most characters still have extra room for buffs without it making them too good, but at the same time some characters need nerfs.
So what I'm saying is, most characters still have extra room for buffs without it making them too good, but at the same time some characters need nerfs.
Apex was then. And this is now. ICs have had little progress on them since then, while a good deal of the roster was either made better or more technical, placing ICs in the lower portion of bell curve.
Technically, it might not matter, but really, I think it does. When characters like Bowser and Fox get all these changes to enhance their gameplay, everyone else has to refigure out how to play against said characters. Their metagames change, but ICs aren't like them.
They still play extremely similar to Apex sans a few noticable changes, and even then, how you have to fight them remains the same since Melee. Seperate ICs. Kill Nana. Kill popo. Watch out for grabs.
You cant really say that against a super majority of cast now. The way you these characters in Brawl 4.1 and maybe 4.2 are different from how you're fighting them in 5.0 and beyond.
But ICs? Nah. Same way. For the most part at least.
DS has the right idea and I COMPLETLY AGREE WITH HIM.
.....Here is why I think mario struggles. YOU can do the rest.
Mario has some of the best combos in the game period. The only reason I feel mario suffers is two things.
Range is bad for the mario. Characters who can space the mario do very well against him.
Mario also relies on heavy gimping and in a game where recoveries are so good, I feel mario can only gimp say 2/3 of the cast well or okay. This means that other 1/3 can bassically get around mario's strategy. The other 2/3 of the cast rather have some range or something else unique to the character that generally gives other characters trouble including mario.
I'll also mention that MOST of the characters mario has trouble gimping are light, meaning mario's combos end sooner against them.
Its up to you what YOU want to do. If I were to address mario. I would simply pick 1 smash and slightly increase its KB to put people offstage a little earlier for gimps and possibly kill 5-7% earlier for characters who are light and hard to gimp.
thats just MY opinion on the mario. I will say that perhaps my conern is exaggerated. I heard this new d-tilt thing for mario *****.
As for your lists. I think they were interesting...........I think Ike was a good pick. and Bowser.. I hope all 2 of these characters get something coming.
.....Here is why I think mario struggles. YOU can do the rest.
Mario has some of the best combos in the game period. The only reason I feel mario suffers is two things.
Range is bad for the mario. Characters who can space the mario do very well against him.
Mario also relies on heavy gimping and in a game where recoveries are so good, I feel mario can only gimp say 2/3 of the cast well or okay. This means that other 1/3 can bassically get around mario's strategy. The other 2/3 of the cast rather have some range or something else unique to the character that generally gives other characters trouble including mario.
I'll also mention that MOST of the characters mario has trouble gimping are light, meaning mario's combos end sooner against them.
Its up to you what YOU want to do. If I were to address mario. I would simply pick 1 smash and slightly increase its KB to put people offstage a little earlier for gimps and possibly kill 5-7% earlier for characters who are light and hard to gimp.
thats just MY opinion on the mario. I will say that perhaps my conern is exaggerated. I heard this new d-tilt thing for mario *****.
As for your lists. I think they were interesting...........I think Ike was a good pick. and Bowser.. I hope all 2 of these characters get something coming.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Thats the same thing I was thinking for the IC's Neko, but I didn't say it because, ironically, no one plays them up in Alaska (except in Melee)
CloneHat
Smash Champion
The fact that everyone is arguing when someone says a character is bad is a good thing!
Everyone is viable right now IMO. Even if some characters are slightly worse than others, you can still feel better when you win with them.
Everyone is viable right now IMO. Even if some characters are slightly worse than others, you can still feel better when you win with them.
The viability of the roster is debatable.
A good portion of the roster can win tourneys alone, but other characters wont make it if they come across a specific character.
Like I feel A gimpyfish-esqe skilled Bowser+ could win a 30-40+ tourney...as long as a Falcon doesnt come around.
I feel a really good Ness can win a 20-30+ tourney...as long as a Marth doesnt come around.
Match-ups like these, while they're not horrible (I think Falcon v Bowser is the worse match up at 70:30, maybe 75:25) They're skewed to the point that the disadvantaged character either has to severly outplay the opponent or switch to a secondary.
Where as characters like Shiek, Snake, Fox, MK, Marth, dont need to really do that as they dont have horrible matchups like that.
A good portion of the roster can win tourneys alone, but other characters wont make it if they come across a specific character.
Like I feel A gimpyfish-esqe skilled Bowser+ could win a 30-40+ tourney...as long as a Falcon doesnt come around.
I feel a really good Ness can win a 20-30+ tourney...as long as a Marth doesnt come around.
Match-ups like these, while they're not horrible (I think Falcon v Bowser is the worse match up at 70:30, maybe 75:25) They're skewed to the point that the disadvantaged character either has to severly outplay the opponent or switch to a secondary.
Where as characters like Shiek, Snake, Fox, MK, Marth, dont need to really do that as they dont have horrible matchups like that.
Alphatron
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 2,269
Meta Knight is a character who's game has not changed over the course of brawl+. He was given no additional tools and in any build.
There is no doubt that Meta Knight is still an awfully good character. For the record though, I can't say if Ganon still does bad against the Ice Climbers.
There is no doubt that Meta Knight is still an awfully good character. For the record though, I can't say if Ganon still does bad against the Ice Climbers.
MK26
Smash Master
[/ hype] €:V
Yeah, plus a OHKO (over 40%) on Dedede with Sonic's dthrow that I won't mentionDo you know about the Pictochat and Rainbow Cruise ones? You can also do it off the head of the little boat that pops up on Pirate Ship. I've been trying to find more legal stages that allow me to iSDR, but not many legal stages have slopes Q_Q
So far I know you can do it on Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Pirate Ship, Pictochat, Yoshi's Island, and Delfino Plaza (off the golden upsidown semicircle transformation). If you find anymore on stages that might be legal (please don't mention Hanenbow or Hyrule Temple tricks) please let me know
Doval
Smash Lord
What's iSDR?
Also, can anyone expand on the sidestep changes? Is it a speed-up so they last less? Or simply shaving off invincibility frames (if so, then from where - start up, recovery, both?)
TL?
Smash Ace
To me it seems like theres 2 or 3 tiers in Brawl+. Theres a top tier of characters like snake, metaknight, marth, kirby, and a bunch of others. Then theres a viable but not as good tier under that with characters like Lucas, Ike, Bowser, Sonic.
IC3R
Smash Lord
...or something like that.
Nevermind.
I'm just going to jumpstart this into a future hope. Many of the very skewed matchups in theory would be solved with a change in physics towards less hitstun, (and whatever it takes to preserve BnB combos, but that should be a given).
Let's make an example. At this point I have decided to main DDD (with Wario covering some bad matchups). A common experience I've been seeing as I play DDD is that I can be playing somebody I'm clearly better than, and winning against their mains. Let's say its my DDD against their Marth. After a few matches of me winning, they switch. This time I'm up against let's say a Pit. Again I win the next couple of matches. They go Falcon, somebody who they only play on the side and end up winning because of the stupidly easy things Falcon can do to DDD's poor little (lol) hurtbox.
The same thing basically happens to fatties of the cast. They have some crazy good aspects of them (DDD's lol grab game, gimp game, kill options, and combo game for example) but the physics of B+ are so against them that it skews their natural weaknesses a bit too far. DDD, Bowser, Ganon and DK are always going to be plagued by their size and weight. That's fairly obvious, but look at some of their matchups. Needing a secondary is fine, and I have Wario to cover myself. The extreme combo characters already **** the fatties, though to which degree depends. For instance, DDD (yeah, using him again) doesn't have too much of a terrible time against Fox because how how great his gimp game is. Though the problem is that the physics give DDD, and any other fatty, a harder time than needed. It's punishing them for being a fatty more than needed. Lower the hitstun, but doing what it takes to keep key combos will still give those combo characters a clear advantage while at least giving fatties breathing room.
I don't want to have to play vBrawl style just to win a skewed matchup <_>
Right now the direction the WBR is going in regards to fatties is certainly fine in terms of the end result. They all have some very impressive set of skills they excel in (whether its DK's combos, Ganon's punishment, DDD's grab game, Charizard's juggles, or whatever have you) and it does make them all a threat. Though a different direction you could go in is improving them through the physics of the game. It should even fixes a portion of the "easiness" that the current physics give the game. The combo game is flashy and the change in pace is great, but a lot of people agree (top level players mind you) the hitstun is too high. We know that the hitstun is there for a reason; staple combos work at the current hitstun value and that's all fine and dandy because staple combos are great for the metagames of characters. But we have what it takes to preserve staple combos now!
Give the people what they want (harder game), and give us B+ regulars what we want (preservation of staple combos that our metagame revolves around).
Yeah, I know I brought that up a few weeks ago, but I'm posting the idea again :V
More I spread the idea, less people forget about it, and the more likely people are to support the change for when the next build comes out months from now. Use the new Official to develop stable character metagames. Use the build after that to fix physics issues and gameplay issues while using the tools we have to keep the metagame this new Official will build :V
Oh, and HYPE+
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I really don't think Ganon is nearly as bad as people make him out to be. Ganondorf only needs a few opportunities to punish and his jab is STUPID good at getting people off of him. Ganondorf has noticeable weaknesses (predictable recovery and easy to spam projectiles on) but they can be worked around. DK, Ganondorf, and Snake are all heavies that are above the curve. When a character can kill you in 4 hits he doesn't need help.
If you want to talk about the fatties that need help talk about Bowser because even Zard and D3 (who are probably below the average) still have lots of potential. Bowser is the only fatty that gets completely shut out by combos. The only fatty I don't know well is Ike. Silven has shown me great things with Ike but I just can't get him to work.
P.S. You guys way, way, WAY over exaggerate how hard combos were to do in Melee. It isn't the histun it's the fact that Melee's AD sucked and Brawl+'s is probably a little too good.
If you want to talk about the fatties that need help talk about Bowser because even Zard and D3 (who are probably below the average) still have lots of potential. Bowser is the only fatty that gets completely shut out by combos. The only fatty I don't know well is Ike. Silven has shown me great things with Ike but I just can't get him to work.
P.S. You guys way, way, WAY over exaggerate how hard combos were to do in Melee. It isn't the histun it's the fact that Melee's AD sucked and Brawl+'s is probably a little too good.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Make the air dodges a lot shorter.
EDIT: If you're going to lower hitstun.
Sorry 'bout the confusion.
EDIT: If you're going to lower hitstun.
Sorry 'bout the confusion.
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