Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Dantarion]

Doval, I lol'd

 

[Sails]

 

[Mattnumbers]

That guy leaving is me.

 

[EmuKiller]

yeah any updates guys?

 

[GHNeko]

Okay, but seriously guys.

Bring the hype this way.

Please? A request from :V

 

[El Raspa]

true i was there, see you tomorrow

 

[Shadic]

Okay, but seriously guys. Bring the hype this way. Please? A request from :V

No.

There's not much to discuss, anyways. Well, besides hype.

Unless you wanna tell us what to expect in the new set, and we can talk about it?

 

[matt4300]

Nomo! or evil Nomo. Way to go dantarion... You have made my day, and it had nothing to do with brawl+

On topic... Do you think that these new mario buffs puts him in a league that he can compete with the obvious highteirs... your honest opinion. I already know capes. I mean I saw you get ***** by a snake in your youtube... He should be one of marios easiest matches... Easy to combo... easy to gimp.

EDIT: sorry... I was addressing neko

 

[goodoldganon]

Except Snake has the whole range thing to abuse on Mario. Mario doesn't have the speed or priority to get inside Snake and his 'projectile' is laughable. I find Snake to be a pretty hard Mario counterpick.

P.S. Not to make you guys hate anyone, but I wanted to release the near final patch notes tonight because we have made everyone wait so long, but everyone else was too busy or didn't like that idea. I say you guys riot against them...specifically Neko.

 

[GHNeko]

Nomo! or evil Nomo. Way to go dantarion... You have made my day, and it had nothing to do with brawl+

On topic... Do you think that these new mario buffs puts him in a league that he can compete with the obvious highteirs... your honest opinion. I already know capes. I mean I saw you get ***** by a snake in your youtube... He should be one of marios easiest matches... Easy to combo... easy to gimp.

EDIT: sorry... I was addressing neko

to be honest, as mario is now, I dont think he'll be able to deal very well with characters like Snake, Marth, MK, etc.

Characters that can abuse the range game or the priority game well generally feel like they'd have the advantage, even if its slight.

I feel hes around mid to upper of mid tier, simple because his weaknesses are things that matter and can be abused. V:

 

[Shadic]

P.S. Not to make you guys hate anyone, but I wanted to release the near final patch notes tonight because we have made everyone wait so long, but everyone else was too busy or didn't like that idea. I say you guys riot against them...specifically Neko.

........Neko?

 

[matt4300]

to be honest, as mario is now, I dont think he'll be able to deal very well with characters like Snake, Marth, MK, etc.

Characters that can abuse the range game or the priority game well generally feel like they'd have the advantage, even if its slight.

I feel hes around mid to upper of mid tier, simple because his weaknesses are things that matter and can be abused. V:

Ah... Thats kinda how I feel about him. I would personally say hes low mid or High low. Seriously can you think of 12 or so chars worse?(somebodys got to be low and bottom even it its not a huge difference from bottom to top) Its getting pretty hard to place them nowadays. Guess that means you guys are doing your jobs right


@GOG: ****ing snake tilts >_>'

 

[Sails]

I say you guys riot against them...specifically Neko.

Slander against the Rainfroian Army!

 

[GHNeko]

Ah... Thats kinda how I feel about him. I would personally say hes low mid or High low. Seriously can you think of 12 or so chars worse?(somebodys got to be low and bottom even it its not a huge difference from bottom to top) Its getting pretty hard to place them nowadays. Guess that means you guys are doing your jobs right


@GOG: ****ing snake tilts >_>'

ACtually, yes. I can think of 12 characters worse than mario, and a handful that have less even or more worse match ups over than Mario.

The only thing I want right now is to be able to dash backwards out of a crouch.

 

[matt4300]

ACtually, yes. I can think of 12 characters worse than mario, and a handful that have less even or more worse match ups over than Mario.

The only thing I want right now is to be able to dash backwards out of a crouch.

Oh? I'd like to hear them... I'll give it a shot myself..

Bowser, DK, Gannon, D3, Ivy, Ike, uhhh Sonic, Link, ness? UHHHH yoshi, falcon? Though I seriously have a hard time beliveing Yoshi, link, ness, Gannon, and D3 have more bad matchups. None of them have trouble with range, or killing.


LOL by dash backwards out of crouch do you mean WAVEDASH *gasp* or pseudo atleast. But we all know how to make mario Chucknorris tier... just make his dsmash kill at around wolf dsmash percents... Spot dodge then 4 frames till DEATH!

randomness: over half the cast have blue eyes >_>' I sense a little envy coming from the good old nihonjin

 

[goodoldganon]

Oh? I'd like to hear them... I'll give it a shot myself..

Bowser, DK, Gannon, D3, Ivy, Ike, uhhh Sonic, Link, ness? UHHHH yoshi, falcon?

GANNON-BANNED

http://www.gannon-banned.com/

You're joking yourself if you think Ganondorf is worse then Mario. Ganondorf punishes harder then any character in the whole game and his gimp gimp game is stupid good. Good use of the powershield helps his projectile problem and his jab is probably borderline too good at getting people off him. Ganondorf is hardly in a bad spot.

 

[matt4300]

GANNON-BANNED

http://www.gannon-banned.com/

You're joking yourself if you think Ganondorf is worse then Mario. Ganondorf punishes harder then any character in the whole game and his gimp gimp game is stupid good. Good use of the powershield helps his projectile problem and his jab is probably borderline too good at getting people off him. Ganondorf is hardly in a bad spot.

I was grasping at straws man... just nameing all big chars that get wrecked by hitstun... Don't gannon-ban me T_T
Its hard work thinking of chars worse than mario.

Edited previous post just for you >_>' Because Im thoughtfull like that.

 

[GHNeko]

GANNON-BANNED

http://www.gannon-banned.com/

You're joking yourself if you think Ganondorf is worse then Mario. Ganondorf punishes harder then any character in the whole game and his gimp gimp game is stupid good. Good use of the powershield helps his projectile problem and his jab is probably borderline too good at getting people off him. Ganondorf is hardly in a bad spot.

Mario has better match ups than Ganon and Mario can wreck Ganon better than Ganon can wreck Mario.

His big size is combo bait and he has worse manuverability on the ground and air than Mario. His faster and less prone to being gimped and has superior horizontal recovery.

And despite how blah Fireballs are. It's still a projectile and you're not shielding/powershielding every projectile Mario tosses at you, especially off stage and in the air.

 

[matt4300]

Mario has better match ups than Ganon and Mario can wreck Ganon better than Ganon can wreck Mario.

His big size is combo bait and he has worse manuverability on the ground and air than Mario. His faster and less prone to being gimped and has superior horizontal recovery.

And despite how blah Fireballs are. It's still a projectile and you're not shielding/powershielding every projectile Mario tosses at you, especially off stage and in the air.

I'd have to agree with GOG on this one man... Mario may get off a good combo or 4 but 3 gannon hits will make that up real quick... Then getting hit of the stage around 100 and mario cant make it back... While it takes mario until the 130s-150s to get a reliable kill.... Meaning he has to either gimp (doesnt work on chars with good recoverys) or somehow do alot more damage alot faster.... Wich he just cant do to some chars either becuase there to floaty for good damage combos, He cant get past there range, or they just strait up out damage him even considering his combo potential... (or in the case of Peach all three)

You gotta be really good to make it with mario.

Gannon on the other hand literally only has 2 problems ... Size and Hit stun... everything eles is pretty **** good. Even his recovery is atleast less predictable now.

Edit: This is all considering that the next set doesnt give mario some way to get around atleast 2 weaknesses... Dtilt IASA frames will hopefully fix his killing problems...

 

[GHNeko]

An overly aggressive mario will have trouble. But a mario that knows when to press and when to back off > ganon.

Dont forget that up B OOS still works. Dont forget that fludd and cape can still screw over ganon spacing. If Mario wanted to be REALLY gay, Fireball spam out the ***. His keep away game is beh, but its enough for Ganon.

So what if Ganon can take Mario out in a few hits. Mario can take ganon out with a 1-3 capes. Ganon's recovery is only less predictable above the stage. Not at level. And definately not below it. Mario can take advantage of that more than most characters can.

That and I can bet you Mario has better match ups across the board.

 

[matt4300]

An overly aggressive mario will have trouble. But a mario that knows when to press and when to back off > ganon.

Dont forget that up B OOS still works. Dont forget that fludd and cape can still screw over ganon spacing. If Mario wanted to be REALLY gay, Fireball spam out the ***. His keep away game is beh, but its enough for Ganon.

So what if Ganon can take Mario out in a few hits. Mario can take ganon out with a 1-3 capes. Ganon's recovery is only less predictable above the stage. Not at level. And definately not below it. Mario can take advantage of that more than most characters can.

That and I can bet you Mario has better match ups across the board.

This wasnt about Mario vs Gannon... I still think mario has it worse matchup wise than gannon.

 

[GHNeko]

The game physics favor mario more than ganon.

Mario has more tools overall than Ganon.

Mario might even have better stages over ganon.

I seriously doubt that Ganon has better match ups than Mario.

 

[stingers]

I think every character in the current Brawl+ set is viable except Bowser and Sonic, who really haven't gotten nearly as much as the other characters. I know Bowser is getting a lot soon, but Sonic...?

 

[GHNeko]

Sonic has some nice tools. :V

 

[stingers]

Sonic is all gimmicks, just like Lucas was, but I've heard Lucas is getting some...changes so...is Sonic?

 

[GHNeko]

Yes Sonic is.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

how about less theorysmash and more smash? i fail to see why you think sonic and bowser are crap characters. perhaps you just don't know how to use them? and bowser has gotten a TON of buffs.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

How does Sonic need buffs? He already has a sexy bair which is on par to that of Wolf's. And as Neko stated, he has many nice tools at his disposal.

And Matt35...something, did you not understand? GANON, not Gannon. one freaking n. seriously.

 

[Doval]

He already has a sexy bair which is on par to that of Wolf's

Uh, it's pretty much the same b-air Fox, Samus and ZSS have too. Except they have more range with it.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Not really. It's way better than Samus's in terms of overall usefulness, and has a ton less lag than Fox's. And the fact that Sonic has more air time than Fox can is a plus to it too.

QFT

 

[stingers]

Wolf's Bair and Samus/ZSS/Sonic Bair are different in usage because of their jump and fall speeds, Wolf can kind of create a wall with his Bair but the above 3 are too slow aerially to do that so they have to be used differently...not to mention Sonic's Bair has longer startup so you can't approach with it as safely because if you see Sonic approaching you backwards you can shield the Bair on reaction...

 

[NC-Echo]

Yea sonics not good, and does anyone here actually go to sleep?

 

[shanus]

Yea sonics not good, and does anyone here actually go to sleep?

I just woke up lol

god i need coffee


also, for the people who think sonic is not good, i recommend you youtube DarkSonic matches because sonic can be dirty

 

[stingers]

i woke up at like 4:30

sonic is gimmicky not good

 

[NC-Echo]

I don't know, I played sonic for a while before switching to bowser (it seems I fall for low tiers) and he's really not that good. Perhaps he got buffed recently though because I haven't been paying too much attention. From my time playing him all he was good at was camping grabs except he wasn't even that good at it. Falcon can camp grabs and lead to way more damage then sonic, is almost as fast and has other options. Sonic as I knew him, was pretty limited, but as I said, perhaps he got some buffs I was not paying attention too.

 

[Dai Tian]

Sonic is good, there's just been times so far where it feels that his game is lacking. Being so early that's... all I can say right now. I'll come back later.

 

[GameSystem]

I think stingers has a really good sonic. You guys should watch him play.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Uh, it's pretty much the same b-air Fox, Samus and ZSS have too. Except they have more range with it.

BAIR

Wolf and ZSS may have more range (wolf is pretty much equal actually), but Fox does not. Sonic's also has less landing lag and more knockback (and thus more shield stun), as well as more range vertically (meaning it can beat moves from ABOVE OR BELOW them, instead of competing in horizontal range) They serve completely different purposes. Wolf's is for approaching and pressuring a defending opponent, Sonic's is for beating attacks that are already out.

UAIR (1ST HIT)

lol? For a uair, this has quite some horizontal range (not to mention disjointedness )

UAIR (2ND HIT)

Note that Sonic's feet are not hurtboxes on this hit. This uair is actually about as disjointed as Marth's uair.

FSMASH

This one is honestly kinda odd. Almost nothing suggests that this attack would be disjointed, yet I find it consistantly beating some pretty high priority aerials (hell, it goes through Wario's bite if you angle it up) , It's not beating swords, but tearing through extended limbs is quite common.)

USMASH

So umm....why do people say that Sonic has no priority again? Maybe they're using THE WRONG MOVES?!?!

LOL hitbox. Getting Snake to crawl under the Usmash while Sonic is spinning shows the horizontal range is at a minimum at ground level. This attack also apparently decreases Sonics hurtbox. But more than that, since it appears hitboxes are elliptical in nature, most ground attacks have a the largest range at low or ground level. Attacks like ike, Marth fsmash have the longest range at the ground when they hit, and Snakes uptilt has the longest range at about his knee level. Because of this, when Sonic spins in the upsmash, he can stay above an enemies hitbox and avoid long range attacks.

But it doesnt end there, the majority of characters forward ground attacks lunge them forwards too, bringing their hurtbox closer to Sonic. This crazy combination of attributes to Sonics upsmash allow it to Either clank, hover above or beat every single ground attack in the game except DDD fsmash and things like vine whip. No joke, when he is spinning, properly spaced Sonic can avoid an Ike fsmash or snake utilt, and while the Usmash hitbox stays out, the enemy will be dragged into it unless they clanked with the very first hit. Usmash is lol.

So I'm still confused whenever I hear that Sonic has no range or priority, as he actually beats A LOT of attacks. Now onto the meatier parts

Offense-Okay, you've got me here. Sonic's combos are pretty short and don't do that much damage. His average combo does between 20 and 40%. For the most part they leave him in an advantageous position though (most combos allow you to get below the opponent before they get out of hitstun. And as shown above, Sonic tears through things from below. His best two aerials also happen to be good for beating airdodges) His approaches are pretty weak as well, since his longest ranged moves have slow startup/don't hit the ground, and are really better used as a counter for the opponent's approach instead. Though he lacks a truely solid approach, he's still got a nice bag of tricks up his sleeve. ASC allows him to approach at an angle that some characters can't deal with (lol Rob), and dash canceling let's him actually use his d-tilt for something (and it's a nice combo starter). But really, Sonic's "approach" is just a huge gimick, doing things like running up with a side B to tear through their counter attack with invincibility, using a DACUS to cover half the stage with his RIDICULOUS upsmash (which goes through spotdodges and shieldstabs too!) ASCing their shield and canceling into a grab. ASCing and jump canceling it to avoid their counter attack, and dairing them in their lag to start a combo, ect. Sonic is just going to be mixups like these ALL THE TIME, and more often than not he's gonna get through.

Defense-Sonic takes a little more damage than he deals because though he's got a few good escape tricks, he's still a midweight and is easy to combo at lower percents. The hard part is....actually hitting him. Sonic is the FASTEST character in the game (covers FD in 44 frames lol wut?) and he can really take advantage of that. He can punish pretty much any whiffed attack out there, and with his speed it's quite easy to make someone miss (as long as Sonic is on the ground, he's the one controling the spacing, not you ). He's also got a few other defensive tactics, like starting a side B charge as they get close (which can be held indefinitely, canceled into a shield at any point before full charge, can be jump canceled at any time, and is INVINCIBLE on release while still having a very large hitbox for the majority of the hop. You're NOT beating this move), jumping back and starting an ASC (fairly high priority move, that can once again be jump canceled, or shield canceled upon landing), hell even pivot f-smash is a nice option for him (f-smash is safe on block OR dodge, lunges him a ridiculous distance, and has a very fast release time from charging). For aerial approaches, he's got utilt added to his arsenal, though it's not that good <_<. He'd rather run away and side B or dash dance into a SH aerial

Now I'm not saying Sonic is AMAZING, but I can EASILY think of some characters who he's better than. Even so, he's got a nice little buff coming his way (nair being changed to S3&K style, invincibility included . Hey he's got invincibility on a lot of moves)

 

[timothyung]

Are those... true hitboxes shown through the power of PSA?

 

[GHNeko]

Mock ups. V:

:V