Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[SymphonicSage12]

Are you kidding? Dedede's bair> half of the cast.


And you can't open The pokey's files with PSA. And they don't need a down b.

 

[thesage]

Clinton, please continue any Ness+ discussion in the thread. I'm tired of being made fun of by other smashers lol.

@Stingers: STFU Lucas******

 

[Mattnumbers]

Yo, what about creating Down+B moves for Ivysaur, Squirtle and Charizard using Project SA ?
While Pkmn Trainer maintains Down+B as Pokeswap? If this IS possible though cuz I think the Pkmn Trainer pac runs on the same 3 folders

Feedback?

Some people are adamantly against adding moves to the game, and also I think that it would make it so that Pokemon Trainer can't switch pokemon.

I don't think they should add a completely new move to the game either actually, although I think they should give Lucas a Zair hitbox.

EDIT: I think Stingers dropped Lucas because he thinks he isn't viable in the tourney scene.

 

[Plum]

DDD's only problem is that he is such a fattie.
Other then his size he really doesn't have too many weaknesses to abuse.

People think he is bad because of how susceptible he is to combos, but he has so much going for him despite that.

His tilts are all great, like almost Snake level good.
Ftilt has freakish range, quick, and cancels out a majority of the game's projectiles. Its great at poking and stopping aggressive approaches.
Dtilt is very fast, good range, and a great GTFO move. It even edgegaurds fairly well from the stage, though he has an even better offstage edgeguard game.
Utilt is only outclassed by Snake's Utilt. The gravity increase kinda screwed it over like it did with Snake's but it still kills well, it is reliable, and fast.

His aerials are also great.
Fair has good range, fast, great for WoP's at low to mid percents, he can now combo into it, etc. It was good in vBrawl, and IMO B+ made it even better.
Bair is just a machine. It edgegaurds exceptionally well (I still say DDD's Bair > some characters all on its own because of how well it gimps). It kills surprisingly well (towards 140%ish iirc). It's one of those stupidly high priority moves that just doesn't stop dishing out pain.
Dair has been functioned into a great combo move. It does suffer from SDI syndrome along with other multihit moves, but it when the last hit connects it sets up for his other aerials beautifully.
Uair can combo at lower percents, and he can reliably combo into it. It kills rather well, and the only real problem with it is that its a multihit move so again SDI is the bane of it.
Nair could actually combo in vBrawl at low percents, so imagine how well it works with noticeable hitstun. FF Nair is great, and can combo into Utilt, grabs, Usmash etc.

He has a good, reliable projectile that can easily force most characters in the game to approach, and the waddles serve as mini sandbags for absorbing projectiles that fire lower to the ground. The chance for a Gordo make it even better.
His neutral B (swallow) has super armor which allows him to stop approaches and deal extra damage. Landing a suicide isn't all that unlikely either.

His recovery is great, though when he is forced into his Up B then he can be put into a bad position quickly. However, more often then not DI and multiple jumps is all he needs. Multiple jumps also allow him to defend himself offstage without too much worry as to not being able to recover after.

And his grabs are still amazing. Uthrow is a great combo throw now, Dthrow sets up for tech chases, Bthrow does 16% which racks up damage very well considering how often DDD lands grabs, Fthrow is the only meh throw but it does setup for edgeguards so it isn't useless.

DDD just has next to nobody playing him. People just tend to prefer the faster, more combo oriented characters in B+. It's understandable I guess, but I don't think by any means DDD is bad. He isn't the only fattie out there getting ***** by combos, and he has just as much (well more really) going for him then a character like Bowser or Ganon.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Very nice post, you bring up some good points Plum.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Some people are adamantly against adding moves to the game, and also I think that it would make it so that Pokemon Trainer can't switch pokemon.

I don't think they should add a completely new move to the game either actually, although I think they should give Lucas a Zair hitbox.

Hm, I guess that its quite complicated, but you're further implying that solo pokemon already work well in matches, amirite?
Though, I've never really played alot against Pkmn & Co. ,so maybe a Pkmn Main's advice is needed

Is Adding hitboxes possible? (I'm pretty sure they have hitboxes premade, that B+ just in/decreases its radius)

 

[timothyung]

Yo, what about creating Down+B moves for Ivysaur, Squirtle and Charizard using Project SA ?
While Pkmn Trainer maintains Down+B as Pokeswap? If this IS possible though cuz I think the Pkmn Trainer pac runs on the same 3 folders

Feedback?

No, because there will be even less reasons to use PT. Unless that "move" is just a taunt or something... but it's not worth the time.

 

[cubaisdeath]

DDD is, in my opinion, the worst character right now. I said this a while back, but even good DDD mains, like Turbo, can't cover up the fact that DDD is inferior to a large majority of the cast... if not everyone.

Timothy, can we improve his horizontal speed at all?

wrong wrong wrong wrong

DDD isn't the worst, although he is definitely hard to play. its always been hard to play a big character, regardless of the game. you just can't play him like you do in brawl, you have to do a LOT of different stuff. 90% of the time I'm in the air, and when I land its usually to try to grab them.


its also hard to improve his horizontal speed because of his falling speed. I dunno exactly how much they changed stuff in b+, but in vbrawl he was the fastest falling character in the game. like I said, I dunno what they changed in b+, but that may be why they can't help him too much

edit: plum hit it on the dot

 

[WheelOfFish]

Well, who is the worst? Bowser was close for a while now, but he's amazing now (hard to use, but I have a friend who mains Bowser and he practically wet himself when he saw the changes). Maybe Ike? Though somebody will probably prove me wrong on that one too.

Plum, you bring up a lot of good points, but I feel like Marth, Fox, Lucas, and Ness are getting so much attention when they are much closer to being viable than DDD is.

 

[cubaisdeath]

bowser has been pretty decent for awhile. although I will agree with you on Ike. at least now, since his side b speed boost doesn't work, his recovery is laughably bad. Ike has lots of counter matchups as well. (counter the up b anyone?)

Lucas is far behind DDD IMO, but I'm also more biased towards ness. I don't think DDD needs too many adjustments

 

[PKNintendo]

DDD is a pretty decent character. And I agree, he needs some attention but he doesn't suck...


Yeah WheelOfFish, Lucas has a lot of attention.

-_-
Way to lump Lucas and Ness together. Lucas little discussion because he's close to being gold. Brawl+ ITSELF made Lucas a viable character. (grab releases being gone and a faster grab helps too)

Marth needed to be fun/less gay/combo king
Fox lost his LOLZ DAIR UPSMASH EZ game, and it became JC shine.

Lucas is far behind DDD IMO, but I'm also more biased towards ness. I don't think DDD needs too many adjustments

Gotta disagree with this. IMO Lucas is ahead of him.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I feel that Lucas needs a zair and that giving him a useful Psimagnet and PK Freeze wouldn't be ridiculous since other characters get buffs when they are already better than him.

After that he's pretty much good for gold.

 

[stingers]

Lucas needs a Zair...anything else is just a nice buff.

 

[jalued]

Lucas needs a Zair...anything else is just a nice buff.

i dont know, zair to upsmash being a kill combo would be scary as ****! leave lucas as he is, he should have problems comboing into his superly strong smashes. he already has a fsmash that is nearly as strong as ness', but alot faster

 

[stingers]

nothing will ever combo into usmash ever.

unless the wbr felt like breaking him with moves that have excessive amounts of hitstun

which is fine to me.

please dont give your input on things you don't understand

 

[WheelOfFish]

I didn't lump them together. Ness has gotten a lot more attention than DDD in the past couple of weeks. Talk about him has since faded away, but I wasn't saying that they are the same character or anything like that. I understand the changes that have been made to said characters and why, PK. If you read any of my past posts, you probably saw that I think they are justified. I just think other characters need love too.

 

[Alphatron]

Dedede's tilts aren't THAT great. Good, but on near Snake's level? Not just in comparison to Snake, his utilt has some bad range on his big body. Ftilt tends to clash more often than it pokes as well.

Thanks to the B+ speed up, his sideB Waddle toss isn't as useful. Not to mention he still picks them up by pushing the A button(I know this can't currently change) and the toss itself is slow. Basically, it isn't as useful as it was in vbrawl.

1. Extract the effect texture from the pac you got from texture sites with SmashBox
2. Replace that texture in the B+ character pac with the one you extracted with SmashBox
3. Save it
4. ????
5. Product

Thanks man. I'll try to do that later today.

 

[PKNintendo]

I didn't lump them together. Ness has gotten a lot more attention than DDD in the past couple of weeks. Talk about him has since faded away, but I wasn't saying that they are the same character or anything like that. I understand the changes that have been made to said characters and why, PK. If you read any of my past posts, you probably saw that I think they are justified. I just think other characters need love too.

You kinda did. Lucas is fine, if Ness is getting attention why mention him?

Anywho, I don't pretend to understand much about D3 but he seemed fine to me.
But again I don't main D3.

If he's really that bad, I guess there's no problem giving me him buffs.

 

[cubaisdeath]

Gotta disagree with this. IMO Lucas is ahead of him.

yeah, I'm just biased lol. I haven't seen or played any good lucas players, so I wouldnt know.

but yeah, waddle dee tosses off stage can kill you, even in vbrawl lol.
waddle dee toss is more of a screening move than anything, but ts also nice to just to stop falco lasers for a second >___>

anyyways, lucas zair would be nice, I wonder why he doesn't have a hitbox on his in the first place lol

 

[PKNintendo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_R2JIVRWrc

A match to show what Lucas can really do.
About the Lucas zair? I don't know why it's not being included.

anyyways, lucas zair would be nice, I wonder why he doesn't have a hitbox on his in the first place lol

Same reason why his old grab release animation took 40 frames. Or that his jump release animation bites.

Sakurai man.

 

[zaf]

HEY, there were changes made to Toon Link that were not mentioned.

It says that only his grabs were buffed, which i greatly appreciate. BUT, his D-Tilt was changed and there was no mention of this.

In the previous builds i have played, his D-tilt worked like Roy's from melee, but now it just hits the opponent far away. It kinda really sucks, since nothing can combo into it.

Were these actual changes to the character that were not mentioned? Or is it an accident

can anyone tell me?

 

[PKNintendo]

Some changes haven't been implemented. Such as Ike's side B special etc.

I'm sure it will soon be implemented.

 

[Magus420]

It already is implemented. Check your FitToonLink.pac.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

HEY, there were changes made to Toon Link that were not mentioned.

It says that only his grabs were buffed, which i greatly appreciate. BUT, his D-Tilt was changed and there was no mention of this.

In the previous builds i have played, his D-tilt worked like Roy's from melee, but now it just hits the opponent far away. It kinda really sucks, since nothing can combo into it.

Were these actual changes to the character that were not mentioned? Or is it an accident

can anyone tell me?

it still pops people upward... I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Plum]

Dedede's tilts aren't THAT great. Good, but on near Snake's level? Not just in comparison to Snake, his utilt has some bad range on his big body. Ftilt tends to clash more often than it pokes as well.

Thanks to the B+ speed up, his sideB Waddle toss isn't as useful. Not to mention he still picks them up by pushing the A button(I know this can't currently change) and the toss itself is slow. Basically, it isn't as useful as it was in vbrawl.

Yeah, Ftilt clashes with a lot of stuff but it has so much range that it isn't a problem. When it clanks DDD is still perfectly safe because of how far away he is when using Ftilt. It's still a great poke because DDD's hurtbox is so far away.
And sure, Utilt doesn't have Snake's horizontal range but it's still the second strongest Utilt as well as being very fast too. I've seen it kill fatties around 120-130%, so its nothing to shrug off.

I will agree with Waddle's being less useful because of the overall speed of B+ though. The Waddle's themselves are still very useful, but the toss has a lot of cooldown. I'm sure with PSA you could get rid of the A button throwing them without impacting him throwing other items like an earlier code did. But PSA can't edit DDD, or props yet.

I'm not saying DDD isn't so good he doesn't deserve anything, so if he was to be looked over then perhaps a little less lag on Waddle toss (like what happened with G&W's Chef to help it cope with B+'s faster gameplay)

 

[zaf]

it still pops people upward... I have no idea what you're talking about.

i downloaded the newest build, and i noticed the grabs were faster, but dtilt is different.
=S

ill check the pac

 

[dabridge]

Please tell me the removal of Pit's ALR is a mistake. He's horrible now.

 

[shanus]

If Pit doesn't have ALR, its due to the animation engine not working properly. It will be fixed.

 

[5ive]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/im5ive
Streaming the newest nightly build.

 

[KOkingpin]

DDD is, in my opinion, the worst character right now. I said this a while back, but even good DDD mains, like Turbo, can't cover up the fact that DDD is inferior to a large majority of the cast... if not everyone.

Timothy, can we improve his horizontal speed at all?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diFuBwloEtk

if you think he is the worst character in the game watch this video. Dedede's Down air is such a rediculous combo set up move. Only Wolf can really get away from it with his Shine.

I cant decide if im Yoshi, Samus, or Dedede main.

 

[Demacrez]

That video was full of ****.

 

[XSilvenX]

Brawl+ Smashfest with me, Skip, Shin,GuruKid and D1 currently.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/insomniac-smashfest

 

[WheelOfFish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diFuBwloEtk

if you think he is the worst character in the game watch this video. Dedede's Down air is such a rediculous combo set up move. Only Wolf can really get away from it with his Shine.

I cant decide if im Yoshi, Samus, or Dedede main.

So the fact that he has a good set-up move is supposed to convince me that he's viable? I know he also has great grabs and pretty good tilts, but I think some buffs are in order. Honestly, the only character I could think that might possibly be worse than DDD is Ike. Possibly. I'm not discrediting you, because you're great with DDD, but that doesn't mean DDD is great. Gimpy was good with Bowser in Melee (not that DDD is even close to Melee Bowser's level of horribleness) but he could never quite hide that Bowser wasn't good.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So the fact that he has a good set-up move is supposed to convince me that he's viable? I know he also has great grabs and pretty good tilts, but I think some buffs are in order. Honestly, the only character I could think that might possibly be worse than DDD is Ike. Possibly. I'm not discrediting you, because you're great with DDD, but that doesn't mean DDD is great. Gimpy was good with Bowser in Melee (not that DDD is even close to Melee Bowser's level of horribleness) but he could never quite hide that Bowser wasn't good.

Umm, a character having some good setup moves, as well as good combos...is a pretty viable character.

And Ike is definitely better than DDD <_<

 

[WheelOfFish]

If Ike is far from being the best, and Ike is definitely better than DDD, what does that say about DDD? I'm not arguing that he doesn't have set-ups and combos, because he does. I'm just saying that DDD probably needs buffed.

 

[The_Guide]

Honestly, I don't think D3 needs many more buffs, if any. He's definitely on the lower end of the tier list atm, but he's far from unviable. Right now, I believe that D3 can hold his own amongst the rest of the cast, and I'm satisfied with that.

Moar aerial mobility would be teh secks, though. Can't deny that.

Edit: Looking back, I'm surprised no one has mentioned how great of an edge-guarder the king is. Lotsa jumps, long range aerials, a semi-spiking d-tilt... what more could one ask for (moar aerial mobility)?

 

[shanus]

Guys, we figured out what the problem is with the animation engine. Its skipping the first line change for every character. We will fix it ASAP.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I don't think he needs a lot of buffs either, but he needs something. Lucas wasn't horrible before all these buffs, but he still got them. I'd say he was slightly above DDD's level before he got them. Improved horizontal movement would be great when it's possible.

 

[KOkingpin]

Ike and Dedede have incredible spacing. Ike reminds me on Melee Ganondorf (who was by no means a bad character) Dedede has High dmg moves, Probably the best grab in the game, pretty amazing combos,, and he can beast in the air or on the ground. he sounds and feels like a solid character to me. I cant really think of anything changing on him being helpful. everything feels extra smooth if you ask me.

Also on Yoshi. I Loooooooove the quicker side b. It is actually viable as a recovery now instead of falling to your doom. And its pretty unpunishable on the stage.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

After 4 hours of play im convinced that I would like Sheik's old Fair back and the uair returned to normal to compensate.

You're not going to get used to normal Fair speed in only 4 hours.
After I got used to doing away with my old Fair habits, I did not miss it. Fair abuse actually received a lot of complaints from people I've played face-to-face.