Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Zankoku]

Joke or not, I responded with a perfectly clear response and you somehow completely misinterpreted it.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

Joke or not, I responded with a perfectly clear response and you somehow completely misinterpreted it.

Oh my bad. I'll just wait for that to happen.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

guys check out this kick *** peach sorry if im off topic http://www.getyourtournament.com/multimedia/2008/08/shuffle-and-cut-edreesespieces-vs-jamez.html

against Marth where were all the turnips?
that Peach Fair spammed too much.
s/he did win but not very gracefully.

against snake, total ownage he sucked.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You just answered your own question.

XD I know I tend to do that alot.

Classy.

When logic fails brute prevails.
Or at least makes on feel better ^_^

 

[Yuna]

guys check out this kick *** peach sorry if im off topic http://www.getyourtournament.com/multimedia/2008/08/shuffle-and-cut-edreesespieces-vs-jamez.html

That video proved nothing. Edrees played quite badly, relatively speaking.

JameZ DI needs some serious work.

 

[Samochan]

Just how old shuffle and cut is anyway? -__- The example was very horrible, it has been very long since I've seen edrees play like that and that's due to brawl's relative new status back then, looking at how much edrees plays her like melee peach and uses way too much fair. The marth was even worse though, heck they both even missed sweetspots on brawl, marth many times. >_> At that time snake was hardly overused and meta's full potential was yet untapped, though meta was overused and kept winning tourneys due to his simplicity. That old videos from such early on brawl's life are hardly valid source anymore.

 

[Falconv1.0]

You're a ****ing moron.

Your argument would've fine just stopping there. the rest was just overkill. XD

Mega Smash, you don't have a clue what you're talking about, seriously, put your tail between your legs and walk away.

 

[Pikaville]

I think at least 1 reason it is less balanced is the fact that the new characters nearly all have amazing recoveries.While the rest of the cast just go the same ones and became more floaty.Plus the fact the new characters have a much more unfair balance of speed relative to their power.

Look at Olimar,DDD,Wolf,ROB.They have some very powerfull moves but arent really slow(for how powerfull they are)Im just saying they feel too powerfull for their speed.Id say the same about Kirby but he needed a buff.

The bottom tier in Brawl are at a far greater disadvantage that the ones on melee.They are just that bad compared to the rest of the cast.Jiggly,Ganon,Yoshi,Link and CF are useless in my opinion.Im pretty sure Snake or DDD can just destroy them all.

If im wrong in anyway with things ive said feel free to correct me.This is just my feelings after having and playing a lot of the game for a solid 4-5 months now.

I enjoy both alot.I think the speed and mindgames and fluidness of high level play in melee are just superior.

 

[Deathcarter]

What happened to "They're just easier to play on a technical level!"?


Because I could care less. Nobody cares about how novices do in Competitive play against other novices.

I want to know how the other top characters can compete against them. If other high tier characters can compete against Snake/Meta, then nothing should be done about Snake and Meta, but if the other characters can compete with Snake/Meta, when why are those 2 obliterating the competetive scene. If all of the great players just use Snake/Meta, how can any other character even place remotely consistent?

No one cares about novices vs. other novices, but there is a problem when a player with great skill using any non-Snake/Meta character loses to a player who is just good that used Snake and Meta. Besides, novice players have to be winning some tournaments with Snake/Meta if there are not a stupidly overwhelming amount of great players using Snake/Meta, considering those 2's dominance.

Honestly, I beleive there is at least 1 inconsitency here.

 

[Popertop]

The fact of the matter is, people lose to other people they shouldn't lose to thanks to how broken some characters are. It's just an unfair, stupid game.

 

[AtticusFinch]

"Your [opinion] is bad and you should feel bad!"

Any one else catch this quote? I did, great show btw.

 

[Yuna]

It's called a character having more tools and requiring less effort to win as.

Lower tiered characters will always have to fight harder. Azen can only go so far with Lucario.

Novice players will not beat seasoned ones, however, even if they're using Low Tiers because they will have little experience and "mindgames". But, Snake, MK, G&W, D3 and others require much less effort to win as than some other characters.

It's how Competitive gaming works.

 

[Falconv1.0]

The fact of the matter is, people lose to other people they shouldn't lose to thanks to how broken some characters are. It's just an unfair, stupid game.

The instance you ***** about losing because the character had a good match up against another, you lose all credibility. And if you hate the game so much, get the hell out of the Brawl boards and go ***** in the Melee section.

EDIT: Yuna, when you say lower tiered, do you mean lower than the top characters, or are you inferring Lucario is low tier?

 

[Deathcarter]

Lower tiered characters will always have to fight harder. Azen can only go so far with Lucario.

Novice players will not beat seasoned ones, however, even if they're using Low Tiers because they will have little experience and "mindgames". But, Snake, Meat, G&W, D3 and others require much less effort to win as than some other characters.

It's how Competitive gaming works.

Well, that makes sense. Thanks.

But, one thing though, do you think that other high tiers like G&W, Lucario, Wario, Marth, ROB, Falco, DK, etc. will ever come close to matching Snake/Meta/D3 in tourney outings? I could care less about low tier character players if they are not being beaten by great high tier players and low tier characters in general, but shouldn't something be done about Snake/Meta if there is very little to no chance that the other high tiers can actually catch up to those 2?

 

[Yuna]

EDIT: Yuna, when you say lower tiered, do you mean lower than the top characters, or are you inferring Lucario is low tier?

Lowered tiered in general (and with a bad matchup against the opposing character).

But, one thing though, do you think that other high tiers like G&W, Lucario, Wario, Marth, ROB, Falco, DK, etc. will ever come close to matching Snake/Meta/D3 in tourney outings? I could care less about low tier character players if they are not being beaten by great high tier players and low tier characters in general, but shouldn't something be done about Snake/Meta if there is very little to no chance that the other high tiers can actually catch up to those 2?

Not really. Not Lucario and DK. Probably not Marth. Falco and R.O.B. will probably be able to do pretty well. Wario and D3 hot on their heels. But G&W, Snake and MK are looking like mighty fine characters at the moment.

 

[Digimonkey]

Everyone's recovery's gotten a boost. Yoshi's is still largely the same, though, still one of the worst in the game.

No.. Kirby's recovery is alot worse, so is Fox's.

 

[Yuna]

No.. Kirby's recovery is alot worse, so is Fox's.

Except they're not dead once their 2nd jumps are gone. And they can meteor cancel. Kirby's recovery is friggin' good in this game because he's so floaty and he has 4 jumps + Up B. His recovery is not the best, but it's far from Yoshi-like.

Also, I said one of the worst, not the worst.

 

[Pink Reaper]

No.. Kirby's recovery is alot worse, so is Fox's.

I can honestly say, as a Kirby main, that Kirby's recovery went from "Ok" to "amazing" in Brawl. The addition of the horizontal hammer means kirby can actually recover with NO jumps. He's either dead, or he's back on stage, thats about it.

 

[Yuna]

I can honestly say, as a Kirby main, that Kirby's recovery went from "Ok" to "amazing" in Brawl. The addition of the horizontal hammer means kirby can actually recover with NO jumps. He's either dead, or he's back on stage, thats about it.

Temporary amnesia. I totally forgot about horizontal hammer for a while there.

 

[al-x_clip]

ugh brawl was made for n00bz anything can be used to recover nuff said

 

[metaXzero]

The only thing that MAY have gotten worst for Kirby's recovery was up-b. But because of Side-B and the general boost to his DI, that doesn't matter.

Although because mostly everybody has a good recovery, Kirby's isn't as impressive comparitively.

 

[Falconv1.0]

ugh brawl was made for n00bz anything can be used to recover nuff said

Go to melee forums and *****, no one needs to hear you whine.

 

[metaXzero]

Recovery in Brawl was simplified for casuals and new players though...

 

[Falconv1.0]

Recovery in Brawl was simplified for casuals and new players though...

Never refuted that but al-x was being a generic Melee troll.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mids in Melee could get up there in tourneys alone, in Brawl, most mids are generally counterpicks from what I've seen.

Sort of.

The upper portion of mid could compete easily with highs and maybe even the top, when you get into the lower to low tier then it becomes more of what you said.

Then again, I'm one to think any character in the right hands could be viable to some degree.

I wouldn't say everyone was viable in Melee, but I mean people like Neo existed, and they were pretty ****ing awesome with those bad characters, lol.

I agree with this, but weren't people saying you can't use a good player as an example of viability before when comparing Azen and Lucario?

Also RedRyu: if some of the Melee lows should be in the mids where should we put those mids? Create a low, upper, and middle middle tier?

For one the top and high need to be combined into a new top, or at least Sheik and Marth.

Then the upper mid could be bumped up to high and every ranking gets a shove upward.

So the top of mid and low go up a rank, so to speak.

Name said mids and how well they're doing in tournaments.

Lucario (16 top8, 9 top4, 5 top2, 5 wins)
Donkey Kong (10 top8, 7 top4, 3 top2, 11 wins)
Olimar (19 top8, 12 top4, 3 top2, 4 wins)
Diddy Kong (22 top8, 5 top4, 6 top2, 3 wins)
Kirby (13 top8, 10 top4, 5 top2, 1 win)
Ice Climbers (5 top8, 8 top4, 5 top2, 5 wins)
Fox (8 top8, 2 top4, 1 top2, 4 wins)
Wolf (22 top8, 3 top4, 3 top2, 3 wins)
Pit (7 top8, 2 top4, 2 top2, 3 wins)
Zero Suit Samus (4 top8, 5 top4, 2 wins)
Peach (10 top8, 4 top4, 3 top2, 2 wins)
Pikachu (7 top8, 8 top4, 1 top2, 3 wins)

Usage may or may not proof a characters worth as well. Jigglypuff was plenty viable in Melee but the lack of good jigg players kept her chances relatively low in most peoples eyes.

Why wouldn't they? People play as all kinds of characters in all kinds of games. It doesn't mean they're viable. For one thing, the majority of attendees at tournaments aren't even that good. Thus, they don't necessarily do everything in their power to win. Thus, they don't care if they're playing a character which gets destroyed against the Big 7.

This is assuming everyone sucks who is playing or playing against, which I've seen you claim they suck without any proof other than the character used.

Yes, because your opinion is obviously law.

Way to be a ****.

How about looking at the melee tier list and seeing how the high is way too small for what it should be.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i heard you can't just use Azen, cause he's just 1 person, and has always placed well with low tiers. i guess its because no one else has been able to replicate Azen's skill with lower tier characters that we can't throw his name around like an example.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

i heard you can't just use Azen, cause he's just 1 person, and has always placed well with low tiers. i guess its because no one else has been able to replicate Azen's skill with lower tier characters that we can't throw his name around like an example.

Well, we either need to examin the likes of Azen, Gimpyfish, and other players from both games and use them as examples of how even a less than great character is relatively balanced and can compete against the highest tiers, or we need to discredit evidence of all great low tier character users as being "exceptional," and thus do not apply to the debate.

It can be one, or it can be the other, but you can't side with both based on convenience. So we should probably settle this part of the discussion now, so as to end the double standard that many of us (myself most likely included) use in these debates.

So is Azen's use of Lucario an exaple of balance or exceptionalism? Is Gimpyfish's use of melee Bowser an example of balance or exceptionalism? The answer to one is the answer to both.

Post # 1000.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i hear other Bowsers were able to replicate Gimpy's Bowser.

 

[bman in 2288]

Me hears that amongst the professional players, Gimpy isn't one of the best in terms of technical skill.

Then again, that's what I heard somewhere.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

i hear other Bowsers were able to replicate Gimpy's Bowser.

Me hears that amongst the professional players, Gimpy isn't one of the best in terms of technical skill.

Then again, that's what I heard somewhere.

Gimpy's Bowser, M2K's Mewtwo, who cares? Pick whichever low-tier users you want from the two games.

Is it exceptionalism or is it balance? As long as we agree to set the same standard to both, the example can be anyone who does better than we think they should with their character, due to being well above the ability level of everyone else.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I agree with his, but weren't people saying you can't use a good player as an example of viability before when comparing Azen and Lucario?

The problem is Lucario is pretty ****ing good, lol. There's a difference between Melee Bowser with Gimpy and Azen with Lucario.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The problem is Lucario is pretty ****ing good, lol. There's a difference between Melee Bowser with Gimpy and Azen with Lucario.

I am aware of that, but Yuna doesn't see much Lucario potential, and keeps going on about how it's all Azen. Due to this mindset, it makes it difficult to argue with him that there are a large number of very viable Brawl characters, as he often dismisses a lot of the high tiers. A better example may have been Tudor's Samus (although I don't know how he places in tournaments).

 

[JigglyZelda003]

ignoring Azen and Yuna. Lucario is good and can place high, probably even win. we just haven't heard of a bunch of other Lucarios winning other than Azens.

Ankoku mentioned somewhere that both him and Gimpy lack somewhat in technical skill.

if other players can replicate similar results then its and example, if only one or two well known for doing so players, A-al-Azen, then its an exception. what more do you need?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

ignoring Azen and Yuna. Lucario is good and can place high, probably even win. we just haven't heard of a bunch of other Lucarios winning other than Azens.

Ankoku mentioned somewhere that both him and Gimpy lack somewhat in technical skill.

if other players can replicate similar results then its and example, if only one or two well known for doing so players, A-al-Azen, then its an exception. what more do you need?

Consensus.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Consensus.

you know i actually had to look up that word. XD

although since Yuna is headstrong in believing that low tiers placing well are usually something like and exception or, like with Tudor, fault with the opponents not being good against Samus you could alwyas go prove their viability, and Yuna wrong yourself. by being the first example and then having followers. that could help your PT argument better.

Edit: this is not to start another PT thing, since thats gone on way too, much this message is for THC.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

you know i actually had to look up that word. XD

although since Yuna is headstrong in believing that low tiers placing well are usually something like and exception or, like with Tudor, fault with the opponents not being good against Samus you could alwyas go prove their viability, and Yuna wrong yourself. by being the first example and then having followers. that could help your PT argument better.

Edit: this is not to start another PT thing, since thats gone on way too, much this message is for THC.

I wish I was that good.

I can't quite get any off my characters past my Pikachu. It's like trying to catchup with three years of practice (more time than that, but I took some hiatuses) in six months. And it's not fun to stick with only one character.

However, I do plan on using him in an upcoming tournament to counter the bad Pikachu and Lucario matchups. It should be interesting. GW, meet PT.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i have 8 mains, with Ganon hovering right below Falco trying to be one of my mains. i do think its boring only sticking to 1 character, but hey some people do. also they can catch up it just depends on how much your willing to put into them. GL in that tournament. i wish i could start going, but there are certain limitations preventing me from doing so atm.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I really only tend to stick with one main if I'm going into a tournament that I use the same character in all online matches of sorts.

I do like variety in mains to learn other characters better and what they are capable of.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

sticking to one is better b/c you can maximize them fully and theres less to learn. but the more mains you add the more you have to learn and work to use all of them at higher playing lvls. once pass 3 mains you ability to fully max a character goes down to like 75% max i think.

 

[IrArby]

For one the top and high need to be combined into a new top, or at least Sheik and Marth.

Then the upper mid could be bumped up to high and every ranking gets a shove upward.

So the top of mid and low go up a rank, so to speak.

What this says to me is the top 4-5 chars are more balanced then the tier list would suggest and by moving everyone up and increasing the size of the Top, High, and Mid tiers that everyone is more viable against the tops. This would suggest that Melee is more balanced since we're talking about boosting everyone up since the tier doesn't do them justice.

Melee is more balanced than Brawl; you may now close this thread now.

jk But seriously thats the logical reasoning that would explain your sentiments.

Azen winning and placing well with low tier Melee chars (Link or Luigi) isn't some unheard of phenomenon since they're not nearly as low as the ranking Low Tier would suggest. PC had an amazing G&W and Chu Dat had an awesome Pikachu aswell. Azen doing well with Lucario is niether an unprecedented or un-duplicable feat since Lucario isn't low tier and the matches that have been used as evidence feature Azen's Lucario vs. MKs. I beleive, as I've stated before that Lucario can have a decent matchup against MK due to how MK's metagame works. The same is not true against Snake.

Also, being very technical definetly doesn't make you victorious in smash. Ken is not known for his tech. Ken is known for winning.