Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Deathcarter]

I could've sworn I said:
"Hey, if we're doing this for Brawl, let's do it for Melee! Let's take out the Top 5 characters in Melee (5/26 is roughly the same as 7/39 (I was generous))! Guess what, the game just became totally different and a lot more balanced."

If you did that for Melee, the competetive scene would become HEAVILY unbalanced. People who used the top 5 characters would suddenly have to pick up other characters, and we know how much harder it is to master a character in Melee than it is in Brawl. The Captain Falcon, Ice Climber, Samus, Mario mains in Melee would be the top dogs while people who mained top and high tiers would have fallen behind. The balance in Melee would be GREATLY skewed if that event happened.

In Brawl however, characters would be MUCH easier to learn so the top players who used the Sacred 7 could pick up Pikachu, Olimar, Wario, Lucario, etc. MUCH easier than the novice players who used MK/Snake/G&W and the like. It would result in a much slighter shuffle amongst the top players, but a HUGE blow to the novices who expected to do well with Meta/Snake/G&W in tourneys. The competition balance would be MUCH more reasonable for Brawl, and considering the balance currently, I beleive it is worth a shot.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not much. If his 2nd jump is gone and he's (vertically) a longish way from the stage, he's dead. Also, it's not like it's instant and is very good against edgeguarding. All people have to do is time an aerial through it.

How often does Yoshi get placed below stage level though?
Considering its easier to DI this time around it won't be often that yoshi is going to be forced to recover vertically.
of course his recovery still isn't great by any means, but it isn't as vulnerable as it was in melee.

Wait, what? How is the new airdodge in any way supplemental to Yoshi's recovery?

back in melee you could use anything to interrupt a Yoshi that was recovering and they had no choice but to get hi. If they airdodged they fell to their doom. if they tried t attack he would get smacked back and killed.

the new airdodge system runs with his double jump momentum. So as soon as he airdodges after a double jump he still gets the max horizontal and vertical distance from it.

it made the double jump less vulnerable in other words.

Yes, he recovers a nominal distance. Yay him. Watch me whack him across the air with an aerial. His recovery is easily gimped and very predictable. Very bad things in Brawl.

I have to disagree with you Yuna. The airdodge again really does help him out in removing his past vulnerabilities.
Of course a footstool can kill him as about any move that hits him at the beginning of his jump or end of it, but the airdodge means that it won't be occurring as frequently.
His recovery is better than some characters such as Falcon.

However, he won't get gimped as badly as in the past.

Wario can be infinited by Yoshi. Look it up sometime.

*takes your cookies frmo you.* Bad Yuna you missed what he was saying.
He means as to how Wario factors into the argument concerning Yoshi's grabs.
Everyone knows he can infinite Wario.

I don't play SSB, so I won't comment on Yoshi in SSB. In Melee, Yoshi is OK. He's still easily gimped and has many bad matchups. There's a reason why no Yoshi has ever won a major Melee tournament (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Yoshi was quite good actually. Least in my opinion.
*shot*
you should get project64 sometime.

Speed > Range > Priority is not correct. You have yet to actually prove this.

How is Speed > Range if I can just keep on outranging you? You cannot approach me even if your moves are fast. Priority is better than range if the priority is greater than the range.

Can I explicate on this a bit? it sounds a bit iffy IMO.
For example Ike and DDD have long, high priority Fsmashes. Yet the bad speed on them makes them far from useful.

Captain Falcon had low priority in melee yet the speed of his attacks as well as the behavior of his moves, allowed him to set up combos.

Speed is greater than range only when the speed of that long ranged move, is lesser than the speed of the less ranged move, by a notable amount.


You claim it's faster and outranges half of the mentioned characters. I call you on it. This is your devastating answer?

Or how about we play characters you don't rely on Dair for approaches? Like, say, the majority of the cast?

Bair is rather useful as is the Nair.
Coupled with his high aerial speed he can approach decently.
Dair is rather poor for approaching since its only good for pressuring IMO since if you whiff it you will get punished due to landing lag.

Or how about you stop exaggerating his strengths? I'll concede I was wrong on the Uair. That's pretty much it. It's typical Low Tier fanboyism.

this brings me to a question.

Can it be said that there is somewhat of a stigma against those who use low tier characters?
For example if a person argues for a character who is low tier they are often regarded as fanboys and often their argument may be considered lesser.

I know on many occasions where I have made a point only for it to be disregarded as the thoughts of a fanboy.


On deathcarter;s note, I half disagree. maybe MK and Snake but nothing else really.
Then again I am just a ******* in general and would like to see Snake get banhammered since his *** is better than Zamus'

 

[Yuna]

Total BS.

"Ease/difficulty of performance is inconsequential if it is humanly possible."

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The argument has never been that Melee is balanced (even though that's a relative term). This is an irrelevant point. The argument is which game is more balanced than the other.
That chart is highly disputed (as expected). For one thing, there's absolutely no reason why Zelda should have a 2 against Peach and illlogically enough a 4 against Marth.

Also, notice how it's all 5-5 4-5 or 5-3 all the way down to Ganondorf. In other words, all the way down to Ganondorf, everyone stood a pretty good chance. It's not like 5-3 is a horrible, horrible matchup.

Yuna - In an arguement of relative balance, the balance in melee is of equal importance to the balance in Brawl. While I do not know the validity of this list, it is possibly the best existing record of melee matchups. Though the high-tier counters are not very strong, nothing in the lower tiers has a good matchup against a high tier character (according to the matchup chart).

Although, none of this is as important as that the debaters here understand that balance in melee is of equal importance in this discussion as balance in Brawl. In fact, the only reason I don't talk about melee balance more often is that I do not completely understand it, I need to rely on the efforts of others to speak objectively on the subject. Hence this link (resubmitted for new-comers):

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025

 

[JigglyZelda003]

even eliminating the sacred 7, how many people are jumping on the "lets advance Ganon" wagon? and Pika, Wario, Lucario, and Olimar are all very good characters.

 

[Deathcarter]

"Ease/difficulty of performance is inconsequential if it is humanly possible."

When a Meta Knight who is simply good can place in the top 8 of ANY tournament, it is somewhat consequential to the great mains of lower ranking characters.

Or are you going to tell me that 8 out of 9 great players exclusively use Meta/Snake at tourneys? Because if that is the case, HOW can the other characters place even remotely consitently?

even eliminating the sacred 7, how many people are jumping on the "lets advance Ganon" wagon? and Pika, Wario, Lucario, and Olimar are all very good characters.

Regardless of what anyone does, any character who is Ike or below him will probably never place well.

And Pika, Wario, Lucario, Olimar, and the like have A LOT more slight advantages, disadvantages, and even matchups than Meta/Snake, not including their matchups with the sacred 7.

 

[Yuna]

How often does Yoshi get placed below stage level though?
Considering its easier to DI this time around it won't be often that yoshi is going to be forced to recover vertically.
of course his recovery still isn't great by any means, but it isn't as vulnerable as it was in melee.

It's easier to DI for everyone. Everyone's recovery's gotten a boost. Yoshi's is still largely the same, though, still one of the worst in the game.

back in melee you could use anything to interrupt a Yoshi that was recovering and they had no choice but to get hi.

No you couldn't.

If they airdodged they fell to their doom. if they tried t attack he would get smacked back and killed.

If Yoshi tries airdodging now, we'll just hit him anyway. And what's Yoshi going to do after an airdodge? Up B halfway athe stage? Airdodges no longer being directional is a minus for Yoshi.

the new airdodge system runs with his double jump momentum. So as soon as he airdodges after a double jump he still gets the max horizontal and vertical distance from it.

Meanwhile, I'll be waiting with an attack once your invincibility ends.

it made the double jump less vulnerable in other words.

Airdodging is not the end-all of vulnerability.

I have to disagree with you Yuna. The airdodge again really does help him out in removing his past vulnerabilities.

Less vulnerable =/= Super good

Of course a footstool can kill him as about any move that hits him at the beginning of his jump or end of it, but the airdodge means that it won't be occurring as frequently.
His recovery is better than some characters such as Falcon.

You mean CF? Well, CF sucks, too. So who cares about him?

However, he won't get gimped as badly as in the past.

He's still easy to gimp.

*takes your cookies frmo you.* Bad Yuna you missed what he was saying.
He means as to how Wario factors into the argument concerning Yoshi's grabs.
Everyone knows he can infinite Wario.

Because I specifically said Yoshi's grab and throws aren't really that good, unless it's against Wario? So Yoshi just grabbed me. What's he gonna do now?

Yoshi was quite good actually. Least in my opinion.
*shot*
you should get project64 sometime.

I don't like the game. I don't care about the game. I stay out of discussions concerning said game.

Can I explicate on this a bit? it sounds a bit iffy IMO.
For example Ike and DDD have long, high priority Fsmashes. Yet the bad speed on them makes them far from useful.

Captain Falcon had low priority in melee yet the speed of his attacks as well as the behavior of his moves, allowed him to set up combos.

Speed is greater than range only when the speed of that long ranged move, is lesser than the speed of the less ranged move, by a notable amount.

Bla, bla, bla. "It's not set in stone, it's not even a real rule. It's more complicated than that." - exactly what I said.

Bair is rather useful as is the Nair.

Unsafe on shield. Also, not really that good on hit, but the Bair can be used for strings and combos.

Coupled with his high aerial speed he can approach decently.

Decently =/= Enough.

Dair is rather poor for approaching since its only good for pressuring IMO since if you whiff it you will get punished due to landing lag.

As opposed to the rest of his aerials?

Can it be said that there is somewhat of a stigma against those who use low tier characters?

not really.

For example if a person argues for a character who is low tier they are often regarded as fanboys and often their argument may be considered lesser.

They're labeled as fanboys if they have no logic or real arguments when ardently arguing for their character. "The character is good because I play as him!". Of course, it's not as bad as some of the total BS I've seen around these boards, like "Peach will be good! She just has to be!" (it was like a mantra when Brawl was first released).

I know on many occasions where I have made a point only for it to be disregarded as the thoughts of a fanboy.

I do not speak for anyone but myself. If someone unjustly label you a fanboy, call them on it.

 

[Yuna]

When a Meta Knight who is simply good can place in the top 8 of ANY tournament, it is somewhat consequential to the great mains of lower ranking characters.

Or are you going to tell me that 8 out of 9 great players exclusively use Meta/Snake at tourneys. Because if that is the case, HOW can the other characters place even remotely consitently?

Ease of winning =/= Ease of (technical) performance

If a character is really good, it's easier to win as them. It's not automatically easier to win as them technically.

Yuna - In an arguement of relative balance, the balance in melee is of equal importance to the balance in Brawl.

"Melee isn't balanced" =/= Relevant

Neither is Brawl. And the discussion is still not whether either game is balanced. It's about which game is more balanced. As such, it's irrelevant if Melee isn't balanced.

While I do not know the validity of this list, it is possibly the best existing record of melee matchups. Though the high-tier counters are not very strong, nothing in the lower tiers has a good matchup against a high tier character (according to the matchup chart).

As opposed to in Brawl where there are just tons of Low Tiers with good matchups against Snake, Meta-Knight, Game & Watch, Rob and Wario?

 

[Deathcarter]

Ease of winning =/= Ease of (technical) performance

If a character is really good, it's easier to win as them. It's not automatically easier to win as them technically.

So do the vast majority of great players use Snake/Meta and considerably less use the other higher tiered characters? Because there are 2 scenarios I can see:

1. Meta Knight and Snake are significantly more broken than the other higher ups. Or...
2. Very few tournament winners use anyone besides Snake and Meta which leads to the question on how any other character in Brawl is even able to remotely place consitently?

Besides, you did not answer how it would be a bad thing for novice players to not be able to ride to the Snake/Meta/G&W bandwaggon and not prevent themselves from being completely obliterated.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

"Melee isn't balanced" =/= Relevant

Neither is Brawl. And the discussion is still not whether either game is balanced. It's about which game is more balanced. As such, it's irrelevant if Melee isn't balanced.


As opposed to in Brawl where there are just tons of Low Tiers with good matchups against Snake, Meta-Knight, Game & Watch, Rob and Wario?

Humor me. I don't admit to knowing anything anymore. Just explain to me how it is that Brawl is more/less balanced than melee, but use data instead of exceptions. In other words, we know that Azen's "insert character here" is awesome, and we know that Tudor's Samus is great, but they are both exceptions.

Also, please keep in mind that these games go in phases; as I recall, melee had quite the "year of the Falco," when space animals completely dominated the metagame. likewise, we have a bit of a "MK/Snake" craze, which I cannot say from experience or not is similar to Sheik in melee's first year or two.

Also, when you mentioned Mmac's fanboyism emerging, some of the other Yoshi's may have misconstrued it as a general reference to Yoshi players. Silly, maybe, but it's the most probable explanation for ShadowLink's comments.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

some people do let their inner fanboyisms show though. this applies to any character not just yoshi mainers. they just suffer for it more i think cause Yoshi has never been an amazing character and is usually just called crap, when he's not, just mediocre.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It's easier to DI for everyone. Everyone's recovery's gotten a boost. Yoshi's is still largely the same, though, still one of the worst in the game.

Agreed.

No you couldn't.

My error I mean that because of yoshi's predictable recovery, you could use any move with the ability to break the juggernaut frames in order to gimp him. and unlike in Brawl he had no method of stopping it other than attacking.

If Yoshi tries airdodging now, we'll just hit him anyway. And what's Yoshi going to do after an airdodge? Up B halfway to the stage? Airdodges no longer being directional is a minus for Yoshi.

Really? I actually found it more beneficial and a few Yoshi mains I have spoken to did say they felt the new airdodge system was a plus.

Of course you can hit him but its a bit more difficult.
He has good aerial speed and the air dodge puts it to use better than other characters.

Meanwhile, I'll be waiting with an attack once your invincibility ends.

no yoshi is giong to automatically airdodge when they recover. its not as easy as it sounds .

Airdodging is not the end-all of vulnerability.

never did I say that.

Less vulnerable =/= Super good

never said it was ither. Just that it was less vulnerable and so its better.

You mean CF? Well, CF sucks, too. So who cares about him?

Don't say that, that Falcon Punch gave birth to the Flying Spaghetti monster.

CF's recovery has decent horizontal and vertical range with similar speed to yoshi's. however it is a little bit more vulnerable though since once's he's ^B'ed thats pretty much it at the end.

yoshi at least has some option afterwards.
granted its not a great recovery but its nowhere near as bad as Olimar and link's IMO.

He's still easy to gimp.

Agreed .

Because I specifically said Yoshi's grab and throws aren't really that good, unless it's against Wario? So Yoshi just grabbed me. What's he gonna do now?

Spit you back, forward, down or up.
Sorry had to do it,

yes he has poor follow ups to the moves.

one thing I have heard though is that his grab release appears to work on a few other characters than just Wario. I am unsure I have heard it worked on Sonic.

I don't like the game. I don't care about the game. I stay out of discussions concerning said game.

Pity.

Bla, bla, bla. "It's not set in stone, it's not even a real rule. It's more complicated than that." - exactly what I said

Eh I wanted to explicate on it since it sounded a bit iffy IMO.

Unsafe on shield. Also, not really that good on hit, but the Bair can be used for strings and combos.

Agreed.

Decently =/= Enough.

decently>crap.

As opposed to the rest of his aerials?

Nair, Uair and bair have little lag.
Its the Dair and Fair that lag most.

not really.

They're labeled as fanboys if they have no logic or real arguments when ardently arguing for their character. "The character is good because I play as him!". Of course, it's not as bad as some of the total BS I've seen around these boards, like "Peach will be good! She just has to be!" (it was like a mantra when Brawl was first released).

I do not speak for anyone but myself. If someone unjustly label you a fanboy, call them on it.

The thing is that I have seen it occur much more often than in melee's years.

Granted one can say that it is due to the larger community but it appears as if the ratio is greater than before.

Most of the responses come from people who are rather green though so I probably am just looking too deeply into things.

Frankly I dislike calling people out when they call me a fanboy, I prefer bashing them in the face with a brick then laughing maniacally afterwards.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh yes, there's a huge mid tier... who are usable against each other (and those below them, and in some cases, in specific matchups against those above them). But the Tops and Highs play on a different playing field.

Not really, a good bulk of he mid can compete. If the mid was that, nonviable, then they wouldn't even be showing up at all in tournaments.

In Melee, the Mids stood a much better chance of winning tournaments or at least doing well in them than the Mids in Brawl.

Melee's Tier list is bottom heavy. Of course, It's going to look like lows could compete when some of the lows should be in mid.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Mids in Melee could get up there in tourneys alone, in Brawl, most mids are generally counterpicks from what I've seen.

I wouldn't say everyone was viable in Melee, but I mean people like Neo existed, and they were pretty ****ing awesome with those bad characters, lol.

 

[IrArby]

Sure some of the mids exist as counterpicks but you'll lose the first match, then counter, and if you manage to beat them the 2nd match, they counter you with another top tier God (Snake or MK) and win the third match. Thus, you lost the first round.

Other thoughts as I scroll up this page:

For the record no one counters Snake or MK some chars merely have decent matchups with them with only a slight advantage. Technically, even a slight advantage isn't considered a counter. Think Melee Falcon or Shiek vs. Marth. A lot of people will say that they're either not counters or they're soft counters at best. Not saying I completely agree, just that even a slight advantage does not a counter make. I'd call Shiek a soft counter (because M2K is awesome but KDJ still wins that matchup) and Falcon is a true counter since both Ken and M2K say so (I have other reasons ofcourse but don't really need them after those two).

As to the Range - Speed - Priority I'd spell it out more like Accessability - (non-situational easy to use approiately) Startup Lag (this is more important than range since good opponents know all about your range and wont easily fall into it) Range (its always a plus to be able to hit without being vulnerable yourself) Damage/Knockback (both equally important can't decide which to put first.)

Oh yea no one uses MK's Fsmash they use Dsmash so you lost a lot of credibility for even bothering to compare his Fsmash against your system. To bad they didn't fix his Fsmash since fixed moves make a balanced game (NOT!.
The new Airdodging, whether a few Yoshi mains like it or not is bad for the game. The proper term is AirSpotdodging. When will people learn.

Also RedRyu: if some of the Melee lows should be in the mids where should we put those mids? Create a low, upper, and middle middle tier?

 

[PassWurD]

I say Melee is more balanced, because only a game of such crappy-ness ;D can give the already dominating character another attribute to make him Godlike...


Rawffle I broke the rules and put opinion into this thread, can I still live Yuna? ;D

 

[Yuna]

1. Meta Knight and Snake are significantly more broken than the other higher ups. Or...
2. Very few tournament winners use anyone besides Snake and Meta which leads to the question on how any other character in Brawl is even able to remotely place consitently?

What happened to "They're just easier to play on a technical level!"?

Besides, you did not answer how it would be a bad thing for novice players to not be able to ride to the Snake/Meta/G&W bandwaggon and not prevent themselves from being completely obliterated.

Because I could care less. Nobody cares about how novices do in Competitive play against other novices.

Humor me. I don't admit to knowing anything anymore.

Then try providing valid arguments foro once. I've been humouring you for months.

Just explain to me how it is that Brawl is more/less balanced than melee, but use data instead of exceptions. In other words, we know that Azen's "insert character here" is awesome, and we know that Tudor's Samus is great, but they are both exceptions.

I've been doing that for months, too. Theory fighter and tournament results both point towards this.

Also, please keep in mind that these games go in phases; as I recall, melee had quite the "year of the Falco," when space animals completely dominated the metagame. likewise, we have a bit of a "MK/Snake" craze, which I cannot say from experience or not is similar to Sheik in melee's first year or two.

Or you could actually look at things objectively. It wasn't a "year of Falco". It was more a "year of certain Falco players". Do you even know the history of Competitive Melee?

Ken won tournament after tournament for years using only Marth. Was it Marth suddenly dominating tournaments? No, it was Ken dominating tournaments. Likewise, how many Falcos were "dominating the scene" during this year of Falco?

Player skill -> Individual matchups -> Tier list

Also, when you mentioned Mmac's fanboyism emerging, some of the other Yoshi's may have misconstrued it as a general reference to Yoshi players. Silly, maybe, but it's the most probable explanation for ShadowLink's comments.

Fanboyism is strong within many people. It's just that Low Tier mainers tend to suffer from it more as a lot of people cannot grasp the fact that it's not a bad thing to be a Low Tier other than being, you know, a Low Tier. It's not a reflection on the character's character. It's just their potential.

Samus doesn't have a bad personality just because she's a Low Tier.

Really? I actually found it more beneficial and a few Yoshi mains I have spoken to did say they felt the new airdodge system was a plus.

No directional airdodging is bad. Invincibility during the 2nd jump is good. I never said airdodging is less beneficial now.

Of course you can hit him but its a bit more difficult.
He has good aerial speed and the air dodge puts it to use better than other characters.

Well then, I guess you can never hit anyone with good aerial speed and air dodge when they airdodge when recovering, I guess.

no yoshi is giong to automatically airdodge when they recover. its not as easy as it sounds .

If they don't airdodge, I'll hit them with a 7%+ attack. It's a mixup, yes.

never did I say that.

CF's recovery has decent horizontal and vertical range with similar speed to yoshi's. however it is a little bit more vulnerable though since once's he's ^B'ed thats pretty much it at the end.

CF's recovery is one of the worst in the game because it's so predictable. So it's a command grab. Allow me to space and a time a punisher.

yoshi at least has some option afterwards.

I never said Yoshi has the worst recovery in the game.

granted its not a great recovery but its nowhere near as bad as Olimar and link's IMO.

At least they have actual Up Bs. Once Yoshi's 2nd jump is gone, he's got it bad. Olimar can still recover while 2 Marios away at stage level. Yoshi can't. Olimar has Pikmins to clear up the edge to prevent edgehogs.

one thing I have heard though is that his grab release appears to work on a few other characters than just Wario. I am unsure I have heard it worked on Sonic.

Not an infinite.

Eh I wanted to explicate on it since it sounded a bit iffy IMO.

Only you only repeated what I'd already said.

Agreed.

Only you just said Nair is really useful when it's not. Its priority and range has been nerfed (!) and it's highly unsafe now.

decently>crap.

In Brawl, decent = almost crap. Because decent characters have almost no chance of winning. Also, being decent in a few aspects is bad if you're still crap in others.

Nair, Uair and bair have little lag.
Its the Dair and Fair that lag most.

They have enough lag for punishers most of the time. This is Brawl. We don't need Ganondorf-like lag to be able to punish... unless you atocancel them, of course.

The thing is that I have seen it occur much more often than in melee's years.

Because before Brawl was announced, the boards were not flooded with new users, users with little background in Competitive gaming in general and Competitive Smash in particular. They are not versed in game balance, game depth, etc., etc. Those of us who've been playing Competitively for a while don't take offense to someone saying "X character is bad" as it's criticizing their metagame, not their personalities.

Granted one can say that it is due to the larger community but it appears as if the ratio is greater than before.

You just answered your own question.

Frankly I dislike calling people out when they call me a fanboy, I prefer bashing them in the face with a brick then laughing maniacally afterwards.

Classy.

Not really, a good bulk of he mid can compete.

Name said mids and how well they're doing in tournaments.

If the mid was that, nonviable, then they wouldn't even be showing up at all in tournaments.

Why wouldn't they? People play as all kinds of characters in all kinds of games. It doesn't mean they're viable. For one thing, the majority of attendees at tournaments aren't even that good. Thus, they don't necessarily do everything in their power to win. Thus, they don't care if they're playing a character which gets destroyed against the Big 7.

Melee's Tier list is bottom heavy. Of course, It's going to look like lows could compete when some of the lows should be in mid.

Yes, because your opinion is obviously law.

 

[Bwett]

If Yoshi tries airdodging now, we'll just hit him anyway. And what's Yoshi going to do after an airdodge? Up B halfway athe stage? Airdodges no longer being directional is a minus for Yoshi.

He's still easy to gimp.

Because I specifically said Yoshi's grab and throws aren't really that good, unless it's against Wario? So Yoshi just grabbed me. What's he gonna do now?

For the first one, yoshi has the fastest horizontal air movement in the game. If I'm hit off the screen, if I can't get on the stage just by moving back, it only takes 1 or 2 eggs at most to reach it unless we're dealing with extreme situations (ex. getting hit completely horizontally on fd to near death). If we are in this situation, you have 4 eggs to use along with your dj. And yes, up b halfway at the stage. Yoshi can do that easily

The problem with people dealing yoshi's airdodge is because of the horizontal speed and the height of his second jump. If you are on the ledge trying to punish me and i second jump with air dodge, the difficult arises in getting to where I'm at since my air dodge lasts through most of my second jump, usually getting me far enough away to not only escape edge hogging, but to in fact switch the situations in my favor, possible edge hog for you.

We aren't gonna talk about you predicting my air dodge and already being in the position where my air dodge ends because I can say I predict that and change it so there is no point in getting into that discussion.

Out of all characters, Yoshi is by far, one of the Hardest characters to gimp. He is only second to Metaknight and possibly Pit or Snake.

To the third comment, Yoshi has a chain grab on quite a few characters, including metaknight, that allows for many options, including usmash out of chain grab or fair spike off the stage.

From the way it looks, it seems you don't have much experience playing or playing against a good Yoshi (If I am wrong, then sorry. That's just the way it seems). You can't really comment on his attributes unless you've spent the time to test it out.

Now before there is anything said possibly about fanboyism or that I'm just trying to push Yoshi for top tier or something ridiculous like that, I know that Yoshi barely even reaches mid tier, if that. There are many things wrong with Yoshi, but I assure you recovering is not one of those.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

footstool is a Yoshi bane. and what about ROB, Peach, JP, G&W, Kirby, DDD, and Wario? their recoveries are all very good, often times better than Yoshi's. Yoshis aint that bad but its not on the same scale as MK's. i don't think Yunas saying its on the scale of Links or tether people but even you have to admit it could be better.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Then try providing valid arguments foro once. I've been humouring you for months.


I've been doing that for months, too. Theory fighter and tournament results both point towards this.


Or you could actually look at things objectively. It wasn't a "year of Falco". It was more a "year of certain Falco players". Do you even know the history of Competitive Melee?

Well, lets see now...

I have no knowledge of the history of competitive melee.
I have no interest in your opinion of what theory and tournament results indicate.

What I really want to know is where can I get an early melee tournament results list, to compare to Ankoku's list, as well as maybe a late-metagame list. I understand ranking systems and tournament dominance, and wish to verify certain facts/increase my knowledge on the subject.

My personal opinion right now is that the games are probably about equally balanced, with a disproporionate early influx of MK (and Snake) dominance (not GW, surprisingly). These characters will probably remain top tier, and Captain Falcon bottom. What would confirm/refute my opinion would be the smoothness/roughness of the advantage curve; if characters gradually go from good to bad like in melee, the game is balanced. If it is sudden with a lot of strong matchups between high tier characters, it probably isn't balanced. It is too bad that not even a general matchup chart is ready yet, as it makes it way too difficult to use data to compare the games.

 

[Bwett]

Footstool is one of those things that tear up yoshi. Yeah and I forgot about all those characters. It's too early in the morning lol, but I'm more looking at gimping potential and I believe that yoshi is just as hard to gimp as most of those characters.

 

[Zankoku]

What I really want to know is where can I get an early melee tournament results list, to compare to Ankoku's list, as well as maybe a late-metagame list. I understand ranking systems and tournament dominance, and wish to verify certain facts/increase my knowledge on the subject.

I don't understand this paragraph.

My personal opinion right now is that the games are probably about equally balanced, with a disproporionate early influx of MK (and Snake) dominance (not GW, surprisingly). These characters will probably remain top tier, and Captain Falcon bottom. What would confirm/refute my opinion would be the smoothness/roughness of the advantage curve; if characters gradually go from good to bad like in melee, the game is balanced. If it is sudden with a lot of strong matchups between high tier characters, it probably isn't balanced. It is too bad that not even a general matchup chart is ready yet, as it makes it way too difficult to use data to compare the games.

Nor this one.

Learn to say more in fewer words.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I don't understand this paragraph.


Nor this one.

Learn to say more in fewer words.

Where can I find early melee tournament results, late melee tournament results, and a Brawl character matchup chart that numbers the degree of the advantages?

That is the entire reson I posted those pseudo-text walls.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

Player skill -> Individual matchups -> Tier list

SO? Is it player skill or individual match ups that determine a tier list??

 

[Zankoku]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/All_Characters_Match-Up_Chart

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tournament_Go
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=23
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=184
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=202
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=386

SO? Is it player skill or individual match ups that determine a tier list??

In a true tier list, player skill has no influence on it at all.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

In a true tier list, player skill has no influence on it at all.

So it's based of individual matchups...??? and tourney results of course

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Footstool is one of those things that tear up yoshi. Yeah and I forgot about all those characters. It's too early in the morning lol, but I'm more looking at gimping potential and I believe that yoshi is just as hard to gimp as most of those characters.

while not easy to gimp, Yoshi is still gimpable, i think he's more towards average. because a footstool can kill him, and something with a knockback like Zeldas GTFO Dsmash can ruin Yoshi's.

@THC
i heard G&W is not dominating as much as Snake and MK due to lower popularity. i could be wrong but i heard that somewhere in here before.

 

[Bwett]

So it's based of individual matchups...??? and tourney results of course

From what I've always known it to be, a true tier list only shows the full potential of a character over the other characters. Basically, like in melee, if I were to choose fox over your mewtwo, regardless of the skill brought to the table, fox will probably win. So to be true, it would only rely on individual matchups. However, that's just my view on it.

 

[Bwett]

while not easy to gimp, Yoshi is still gimpable, i think he's more towards average.

I'm not gonna fight over average. I can live with that lol =P

EDIT: Crap...didn't realize the double post! Sorry!!

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

From what I've always known it to be, a true tier list only shows the full potential of a character over the other characters. Basically, like in melee, if I were to choose fox over your mewtwo, regardless of the skill brought to the table, fox will probably win. So to be true, it would only rely on individual matchups. However, that's just my view on it.

I thank you for your input and to me that makes sense....lolz That's what I was thinking lolz

This list still won't stop me from dominating with Sonic...lolz

 

[Zankoku]

No, skill compared to other players will.

 

[BlackSmoke]

guys check out this kick *** peach sorry if im off topic http://www.getyourtournament.com/multimedia/2008/08/shuffle-and-cut-edreesespieces-vs-jamez.html

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

No, skill compared to other players will.

SO skill does determine a tier list????

 

[Bwett]

No, skill compared to other players will.

Moreso I was talking about that the tier list shows nothing of skill. Of course, if we do taj's mewtwo vs. my fox, we will know the outcome lol. Wait...are you saying that skill helps determine tier or skill takes into account when fox vs. mewtwo?

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

Moreso I was talking about that the tier list shows nothing of skill. Of course, if we do taj's mewtwo vs. my fox, we will know the outcome lol. Wait...are you saying that skill helps determine tier or skill takes into account when fox vs. mewtwo?

DOES SKILL COUNT TOWARDS A TIER LIST OR NOT, that's what I'm trying to figure out?????....lolz

Does an actual player count towards the list or was Ken just there using Marth???...lolz

This thread all comes down to a tier list IMO

 

[Yuna]

SO? Is it player skill or individual match ups that determine a tier list??

Why in the world would (individual) player skill have anything to do with the tier list? The tier list is based on what the likely results would be if two players of (roughly) equal skill fought each other at the highest possible level of play. Individual player skill plays no part in it as we're to assume they're equals.

The tier list is made up entirely of individual matchups.

DOES SKILL COUNT TOWARDS A TIER LIST OR NOT, that's what I'm trying to figure out?????....lolz

Answered above and common sense. And why the bold, underline and italics when your question had already been answered (by Ankoku)?

This thread all comes down to a tier list IMO

"Your [opinion] is bad and you should feel bad!"

 

[Tenki]

1) Pretty much, no. Tier lists/matchups try to take into account everything done at the highest skill level possible, with the way skilled players play as a reference.

I think what he was saying that player skill can stop you from dominating a tourney with Sonic.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

1) Pretty much, no. Tier lists/matchups try to take into account everything done at the highest skill level possible, with the way skilled players play as a reference.

I think what he was saying that player skill can stop you from dominating a tourney with Sonic.

SOOOOO.... the meta game so far isn't far enough to determine that. IMO

No, skill compared to other players will.

that's why I asked again ^^ because he mentioned that it did count

Why in the world would (individual) player skill have anything to do with the tier list? The tier list is based on what the likely results would be if two players of (roughly) equal skill fought each other at the highest possible level of play. Individual player skill plays no part in it as we're to assume they're equals.

If that was the case then that could take matches upon matches...upon matches lolz

 

[Zankoku]

that's why I asked again ^^ because he mentioned that it did count

You're a ****ing moron. I'm telling you that you won't dominate anywhere with Sonic because even though player skill has no bearing on a tier list, it has a very strong bearing on how well you perform in a tournament setting.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

You're a ****ing moron. I'm telling you that you won't dominate anywhere with Sonic because even though player skill has no bearing on a tier list, it has a very strong bearing on how well you perform in a tournament setting.

The Sonic thing was a joke man....that all depends on how good someone is, it's no end all on how well a person performs.