It's not a real advantage.
"My character is good if the opponent has little experience and knowledge in the matchup" is not a true advantage because it'll only work on
bad players. No good player will lose due to unfamiliarity with a matchup unless said matchup is pretty close to begin with.
It... is... not... an... advantage! Being a low tier character is not an advantage! Being a rarely played character is not an advantage. Being PT is not an advantage since all of his Pokémons are at best mediocre.
Armada doesn't randomly lose to bad Jigglypuffs. I'm just a lot better than him facing Jiggz. Still, he's pretty bad against Jiggz because he consistently does things one should not do against Jiggz.
Also, Meta-Knight's metagame is
very developed. There are
tons of Meta players. Now, if Meta's not truly good, then why is he still winning? People should have meta experience coming out of their behinds.
I see that people like Yuna wants to state that Brawl is not balanced, etc.
I provide valid arguments. You do not.
And yes.. its balance is not perfect. But it is much much better than Melee. Don't you already see it?
Provide real arguments.
There are much more characters being able to hold their own on tournaments.
O RLY? Then how come the tournament results speak against this BS?
Go to the "Best Vids of Each Character" thread so you see how far can every character go.
Yes, a few exceptional players can play relatively bad characters well.
How is this different from Melee? Have you ever seen Taj play Mewtwo? Or any number of great Bowsers do the Bowsa?
Besides, that thread is full of BS. Someone nominated Nyosuke and Zentore!
There are few if not any worthless characters.
Prove it. Also, prove that there are so many abundantly worthless characters in Melee, especially in comparison to how things are in Brawl.
You stating something =/= It being a fact
And as I continue to say over and over .. don't you see how many moves were fixed so they could be usable on combat?
This equals balance how? This equals
change. Just because the game is
different does not mean it's more balanced. Just because more moves are usable now for returning characters does not equal balance if the changes introduce
more imbalance and/or if the
new characters are highly imbalanced (Meta-Knight and Snake both say "Yo").
Brawl has a supreme work on this.. Every B and A move is .if not spammable, at least useful.
O RLY? I present to you Peach's Peach Bomber. It's still pretty slow, it no longer bounces off of walls (which means certain death and/or easy edgeguarding if you accidentaly Wall Bomb a wall pretty low down) and it still doesn't have much knockback. It semi-spikes sometimes, but that's not much when you barely fly off anywhere without DI at 120%.
Ike's and DeDeDe's Fsmashes say "Hi". You'll almost never hit anyone even semi-good with them, ever. Unless, of course, they trip into it or suffer random bouts of stupidity. Sheik's Dair says "Hi". Captain Falcon's Nair says "Hi". I could go on.
Making BS blanket statements that
are not true =/= Smart
In Melee there were many moves that were too easy to block an punish.
As oppposed to in Brawl?
They were too slow, or too laggy, or too weak.
"Too slow, too laggy" = As opposed to in Brawl? Almost
any lag is punishable on block now. There were very few moves that you could block on pure reaction and it's not like Brawl has many less of them, especially when you factor in the newcomers.
"Too weak" = I'm sorry, have you
played Brawl? In Melee, a move being "too weak" meant almost nothing. In Brawl, a move being too weak (and not knocking the opponent back significantly) means eating an aerial to the face since they'll get out of hitstun before you get out of lag most of the time.
See how Ness was fixed. How DK was fixed. How Peach was fixed. Zelda. Kirby. Can you deny it?
See how Captain Falcon was nerfed, how Ganondorf was nerfed (and made
slower(!)), how Link (!!) was nerfed, how Bowser (!!!) was nerfed. Can you deny
those?
Also,
Peach was fixed? In what alternate universe? Even the most ardent of Peach fanboys in the Brawl Peach Forums (who weren't total idiots) eventually agreed that Peach is now at best a Mid character.
Making a few of Peach's moves faster =/= Fixing her/making the game more balanced
Peach is now so bad she repesents the imbalanced in the game (bring it on, fanboys, flame me all you want, as if I haven't seen it all before). So they made her Fair faster. They also made it
weaker. They, addionally, nerfed Nair's range, priority and damage (kinda). They made Dashattack worse (less priority, no combo potential), they nerfed Dsmash (pretty much everything about it), they even kinda nerfed Over B. It's slightly faster but it's not like it's better all of a sudden, case in point the lack of bouncing off of permanent walls.
If you could make a list of Brawl useless moves... it would be much more smaller than those from Melee.
You make a list of Melee's useless moves and I'll refute it and smack you with a Brawl list. Also , "less useless moves" =/= "more balanced". It can
add to balance, but so far,
you haven't proved in any way whatsoever that the
character balance (which is, really, the
only balance that matters) is better in Brawl.
No, you saying "More characters can compete"
when tourney results and theory fighter both state otherwise does not make you right.
Then, as all characters have usable moves.
As opposed to in Melee where even Pichu had usable moves?
All characters have good potential.
Some have good potential. Some have
amazing potential. Some have next to no potential. Nothing new here.
There may be a few better gifted characters, but the majority is usable and power-capable.
Oh yes, there's a huge mid tier... who are usable
against each other (and those below them, and in some cases, in specific matchups against those above them). But the Tops and Highs play on a different playing field. In Melee, the Mids stood a much better chance of winning tournaments or at least doing well in them than the Mids in Brawl.
It is just irrational to say Melee is a more balanced game.
Why? Because you say so?
Also, GG doesn't look like its the game for me. Trapping people in the corner while they sit and block your attacks that chip away at their health bar isn't my idea of a cool combo vid.
Faultless Defense, Slashbacks and Perfect Shielding solve the problems with chip damage.
Theres is balance inside a Character, and balance between characters. Balance within a Charater is important so to the many options he has when fighting are equally effective, or usable depending on situation. I mean if a character has 2 very good moves an the rest are crap. He is not balanced. And you will only be using those moves. Brawl made an amazing job in this.
You're completely ignoring the newcomers. And those who
do have useless or next-to-useless movesets in Brawl. Or those who have moves that are usable but that pale in comparison to the "usable" moves of other characters (like the majority of Mid).
Balance between characters is what we often speak about. But .. if you think of it.. They have a relation. If the many moves of a character are good and usable (even spammable, which is better than useless, ex. mach tornado), the character can do well in combat.
So what if Peach has few moves that are totally useless in Brawl? Doesn't mean jack squat if her moves pale in comparison to Zelda's.
So.. if every character has a set of good moves (let's say, almost every move, some others will depend on situation off course).
In Melee and Brawl, each character has a standard of 18 A and B moves (some have more) + throws. having a few useless/"not usable" ones doesn't mean much if it's only, say, 3 out of 18 + 4 (throws). It's like having 22 TVs. 4 of them are useless. Then you "fix" them so only 2 of them are useless.
Does that really mean much to you when you're only going to use 15 of them, anyway? Also, what about the fact that the majority of throws in Brawl are "useless" now? All most of them can accomplish is inflict damage. Sheik's throws barely have
any knockback
at 200%. Those are moves too. Meanwhile, in Melee, many of Sheik's throws were "too good" (in NTSC).
It is much more likely that there will be balance between characters.
More likely =/= It's how things are
Just like in the Ace Attorney series, in this debate, establishing
a possibility means Hello Kitty. You have to use
decisive evidence. There's a possibility Captain Falcon's God Tier with untapped potential. Doesn't mean it's true.
I don't think that balance between a character leads to balance between characters.. there has to be overall tunning . It is still, a hard job to do.. but.. so far... those nerfs, buffs and changes in Brawl from Melee, all have lead to a more balanced game.
Blind blanket statements are bad in debate. Stop using them. Decisive evidence.
If you take Melee Ness vs Fox.. and Brawl Ness vs Fox.. which is more balanced? Melee Sheik vs Kirby.. against Brawl Sheik vs Kirby ... Brawl is more balanced.
Objection! More BS!
The game has been friggin' rebalanced!
Of course matchups are going to be different in this game! So what if Sheik's so different she does far worse against Kirby now than in Melee?! That's not important as
they're different charcters this time around!
They're
cosmetically pretty much the same (especially Kirby), but even their movesets are cosmetically different now. Most of them work vastly different from in Melee.
Speaking about Ganondorf, Jigglypuff and Falcon.. we still have to see how far players can go.
"It's still too early to tell". Oh yeah? Then how come it's not too early for you to tell X characters are more balanced?
(I don't mention Yoshi as I am convinced he is good. )
In Sweden, we have a saying:
"Believing is what you do in church"
("I'm convinced (despite evidence otherwise)" = "I believe")
But still, we are talking about 4 characters from 39.
Name all characters you believe are
worthless in Melee and that
don't stand a chance at winning tournaments or placing high in them and I'll make a list of Brawl characters with roughly the same potential relatively speaking. I promise you, the list will not contain only 4 characters.
You're welcome. Lovely to see you can at least be grateful for others trying to back up your points. Even though I've just sided with you, you still try to belittle me...?
Because what you claim is my opinion isn't my opinion at all.
Who's to say I said it to speak on your behalf, anyway? Rather, I could of simply of been pointing out why others were wrong, just as you have done many times.
English is my third language. It must be your 10th.
"Yuna doesn't know the Smashers and hasn't played them. Therfore, to him, they're 'no name players." - Sounds a lot like claiming that's what my definition of what a "no name player" is... ergo, speaking on my behalf (without my permission).
The knowledge needed to make my last reply had nothing to do with the thread. What I stated was simply common sense and was a direct reply towards someone that I felt was wrong. Therefore, I replied to them. It unfortunately just-so-happened that one of their comments remarked about you.
How about you not claiming that what you're saying is an opinion shared by me?
I also love the way that you're annoyed at me for 'speaking on your behalf', despite approximately a hundred others here doing the exact same thing, some of which were aimed at me whilst we were debating earlier. Yet, you did not ward them away, and in some cases even thanked them.
Quotes or it didn't happen.
And some of them might have been posters I actually respect and who aren't total idiots. And they
didn't make up BS and lies. When they say "Yuna thinks this", it's based off of actual evidence, like, say,
me actually saying those things. That's just quoting or paraphasing me,
Please point out to me where I've said
anything that could even be paraphrased as "Yuna doesn't know the Smashers and hasn't played them. Therfore, to him, they're 'no name players."
I ask you.. what makes Yoshi bad?
This should be rich.
He has long second jump with super armor.
Juggernaut Armor =/= Super Armor
Now he can recover with Up B.
In what alternate universe? Popo goes higher now with Up B than in Melee, but that doesn't mean he can recover using Up B. Neither can Yoshi.
But he's laggy.
his attacks have good range and are not weak.
So do a lot of Captain Falcon's moves (and they're fast too) and so did a lot of Pichu's attacks. Yoshi has priority issues and cannot combo. His recovery
sucks (still) and he still can't jump out of shield.
All of his B moves can do quite well in combat.
Against bad players. B is slow and can be spotdodged on pure reaction by the top echelon of players (or just players with good reaction), Side B isn't half as good as some people think it is. Down B, how the hell is that a good attack? It's not fast and it lags so much you're pretty much a sitting duck. Anyone whose Fsmash isn't Ike-speed can just Fsmash you into infinity on block.
MorpheusVGX, your posts beg me to ask you the following question:
Have you played Brawl? And if you have, has your copy been altered in any way?
I also want to mention that the fact a Noob can do better with a character does not prove he is more gifted. There are characters harder to use than others and they can become more powerful. Let's take an example from Melee: Fox. Fox is a fast faller and for Noobs that is deadly. For pros.. it is a good thing. Fox was the most powerful character , but he was hard to master . A Noob with Fox couldn't do much. I can guarantee that in a Noob match.. Kirby vs Fox.. Kirby would win. At high levels of play... that was difficult.
Funny, Foxes, Falcos and Marths spamming C-sticked smashes and powerful aerials destroy Kirbies, Mewtwos, Pichus and Zeldas doing the exact same thing in Sweden. I guess I live in Bizarro Land.
Uh... what? Priority? The priority of his character has nothing to do with why he may or may not be a weak character.
Do you know what the hell Priority means in fighting games? If not, look it up. Priority is
very important in Smash.
Yes.. he was catch on fire , but then he could fly. Fox was too fast to be controlled by a Noob. And in the mids of confusion you could often fall to death.
Not really, because n00bs do not waveshine, wavedash, dashdance or any of the other techniques that made Fox "too fast". In the midst of confusion,
all characters can fall to their deaths if the one controlling them suck. I guess everyone's Bottom Tier.
So we're not talking about n00bs anymore? We're talking about people
who've barely touched the game? Then everyone except the ones with exceptional recoveries are Bottom Tier as total n00bs consistently die all the time due to inability to simply Up B when knocked off the stage.
It's not that big of a problem, at least not for Sonic.
Partly because SWF makes such a big deal out of it that they people get caught off guard when Sonic outprioritizes one of their attacks with U-air, F-air, D-air, Fsmash, F-tilt, D-smash, U-smash, or Side-B's invincibility frames. Or clang moves with spin charge.
But also because most good Sonic players won't attack to 'clang' but instead try to beat out attacks and abuse landing lag/post attack lag. The grab game also tends to be abused as much as possible.
Who the hell attacks to clank? We attack to win. But if my Marth's Fsmashing you at the same time as your Sonic is doing whatever, if your move is too weak, my Fsmash will
go through your move. In the air, the move with the greatest priority will
always win unless both moves are B-moves, which means you cannot clank in the air (unless with B moves).
Prioritity is
very important. And I don't know what kind of Sonics you've been playing/play yourself, but Sonic's lack of priority is one of his major flaws and most (good) Sonic mainers know and agree with this.
Also, good players will not consistently leave themselves open so that you can "abuse landing lag/post attack lag". Don't base character potential on bad players.
The only times I've been annoyed by Sonic's priority is against characters with high aerial priority like Luigi, Wario, Jigglypuff, and Peach, but that's mostly solved by switching to ground vs aerial game and using shields, baits or just plain attacking from a different angle.
How about you try playing a few good players and maybe them you'll learn a bit more about how important priority really is?
There's always the whole "outplaying" your opponent with better reading, baits, mindgames and pressure.
Yes, higher priority just makes it easier to do all that.
You're not listening, nor did you read the whole of the conversation.
Yes, priority is very important, but priority isn't something that actually makes Yoshi 'suck'. It's just the outcome.
Funny, I could've sworn his relatively low priority contributed to his suckage.
From my experience fighting competent Yoshi mains (wifi)
I'm sorry, what?
When they play defensively, they don't resort to shield. They tend to resort to walking away/out of range (and countering with a B-air>juggle/combo) or a retreating pivot grab.
How about you stop sucking and consistently fall for that BS then?
Can you name all of Snake's kill moves? Good. Can you tell when you get above Snake that he's going to try to U-tilt?
All of them?
How can Snake then land kills when the person he's up against knows his kill moves and their range? Mindgames.
Yes? And?
And mind you, mindgames aren't necessarily character-specific.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, Snake has to "win 100 mindgames" to win against Yoshi. Yoshi has to win 1000 mindgames to win against Snake.
Character attributes help us to/prevent us from mindgaming.
-_- Why the hell do we have these bunch of discussions? It seems like if anyone Mentions the "Y" Word, then 15 people break in and discuss why he sucks and nobody should ever use him, even though THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC IN THE FIRST PLACE. Now I gotta defend because the reasons on why are complete bull****.
Because Yoshi is one of the worst characters in the game. He's a prime example of why Brawl is messed up.
BULL****! I seen characters with way less range than Yoshi and get treated alot better than him. Yoshi's Range is fine.
It's
one of the factors leading to Yoshi's downfall.
I still don't know where this "Yoshi's Priority is crapzardz!" stuff is coming from. Yoshi's Priority is very average at best. Almost all of Yoshi moves cancel out almost everyone elses moves, even very strong attacks.
Learn the difference between Air and Ground priority.
I don't think a Characters diffucultiy should have any impact on how well the character is. Only when the character is played to the max of their potential. Take Voldo from Soul Calibur for example. He's an awkward character to play as, and looks completely garbage on the outside, but devastating on the inside once you Master him.
It doesn't. You've got that one right, at least.
Yoshi is not a character you can just pick up and start owning people with.
You can't own as Yoshi...
ever.
Not going to deny that Yoshi's Sheild game is pretty bad, but I won't say it completely cripples him. However he's got Pivot Grabs to replace it now, which can work even better in most cases.
What, as opposed to everyone else's Pivot Grabs? Also, since when is Yoshi's Grabs all that, anyway? Unless, of course, you're facing Wario.
Predictable? Are you Kidding me? Almost all of Yoshi's moves come out Lighting Fast! Really only Fsmash and Fair are his only Slow ones, but Dragonic Reversing makes him even more unpredictable with his attacks and movement.
Being fast =/= Being unpredictable. Good players shield on prediction. If we think you're gonna Bair us, we shield it and then punish you for bairing us in the face.
Besides, Yoshi has alot more than Fsmash to kill. Uair, Usmash's, and Ground DownB's also Kill at pretty decent %'s.
Usmash is highly unsafe. Uair requires a sweetspot and isn't even that good. If you'r reliably killing people with "Ground Down B's", you need to find better opponents.
Just because He doesn't have extreamly overpowered Tilts like Snake, doesn't make him suck.
Yes it does. Because Snake, Meat, G&W and a lot of other characters are just
that much better than Yoshi that Yoshi is
total garbage in comparison (unless, of course, he's facing Wario).
Infact why all this comparison to Snake? You can make anyone who isn't MetaKnight look complete garbage by comparing it to him.
I suggest you play Brawl. There are a few more who do not look like complete garbage in comparison to Snake.
Again, what the hell are you talking about? Mario's Fsmash has the same Startup Lag as Yoshi Fsmash, and they're pretty much equal in power.
I believe Mario's has more shieldknockback, though. And possibly more shieldstun. But don't hold me to that.
And EVERYONE has a better shield game than Yoshi because EVERYONE HAS THE SAME FRICKEN SHIELD!
Everyone does not have the same shield.
And not Mobile enough? Yoshi is one of the fastest characters in the game for **** sake! He's faster than 2/3's of the roster.
In what alternate universe? Speed is more than startup lag.
DEAR GOD! If you haven't fought a Good Yoshi, then why are you debating so much on why he sucks! OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO THINK HE SUCKS IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED ANYONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO USE HIM!
And of course you'd think Yoshi doesn't suck if you've never played any good players who know how to fight him.
I agree with the logic employed, but comparing the very top to the very bottom of Brawl is not a fair assessment, as Brawl has 39 fighters to melee's 26.
In other words, while Melee is probably more balanced than Brawl because of the greater number of universal options, it is only fair to compare characters that are within 26 places of eachother, like maybe R.O.B. to PT instead of MK to Captain Falcon.
BS logic. A game's balance comprises every single character on the roster. The best vs. the worst is a very fair comparison, especially since Brawl's supposedly vastly superior in terms of balance. More characters mean it's harder to balance. That doesn't give you a "Get out of Balance"-card (like you're suggesting above, where we should only compare characters within 26 tier placings of each other).
The importance of a Smash goes Speed > Range > Priority.
Not really.
Yoshi Fsmash comes out Faster or equal to about half of those characters, and also outrange's half also.
In what alternate universe? Specify.
Yoshi has some priority, but due to the Hitbox actually shifting into his head when doing it, makes it kinda funky.
You Funky Smash in my general direction, I fair you as Marth. Who wins?
It doesn't really matter though, because If done simultaneously, then Yoshi will get the hit in first on half of those characters anyways.
If they're idiots and not spacing. If they're idiots and use slow moves and leave themselves open frequently.
Although Yoshi's Fsmash should be the primary attack in the first place anyways when he has better attack to kill in the first place
Wait, Yoshi's Fsmash should be his
primary attack? In what alternate universe?
you guys say yoshi? I say pichu...
I say Pichu had a much better chance of beating the Tops and Highs of Melee than Yoshi (who isn't even the worst character in Brawl) has agains the Tops and Highs of Brawl.
Yes because so far, you're only 20% accurate with your claims.
Better than your, what, 5%?
You call that competent? Both players were sub-par. The Meta-Knight choked or got hit on the head or whatever and just started sucking after a while. That one vid proves bupkis.
I think Yoshi can Dashcancel with Dragonic Reversing (AKA WaveYoshing), but I don't do it much, I do it with Dsmash due to it not canceling the slide. Even without AT's, Yoshi's Bair is a fine approach. Nair, Ftilt, and Dtilt also work ok too.
Only Nair, among other things, is ridiculously unsafe.
Can't space the landing? Not sure what you really mean by that. He can set up immediately afterwards with a Ftilt on landing, and then follow that up with a Uair for a 3-6 hit combo. And again, I already explained the approaches already.
What if I don't suck and don't get hit by any of that BS?
Terrible ability to counter Approaches? Have you seen what Yoshi's QDS Pivot Grabbing can do?
What if I space and don't consistently fall for stupid BS like that? Your tactics require the opponent to fall for obvious things over and over and over again. After 3 times, smart players will catch on.
We all know that Brawl Captain Falcon doesn't have much against Brawl Snake. We also know that Brawl has a 39 (or 37, depending on how PT's counted) cast to melee's 26, which gives it an excuse.
Stop clinging to this BS argument. So what if Brawl has more characters? It just makes it harder to balance the game. If you're good, you can still balance it.
The narrowing down/shift of tournament characters in melee - was it linked to wavedashing?
Allow me to laugh.
Well, depending on which tier of Brawl characters you are comparing, the game is really balanced or unbalanced. If you take out the sacred 7 (MK, Falco, Snake, Marth, G&W, DDD, and ROB) you will see that there are not nearly as many 7:3 matchups and hard counter matchups (if you don't factor in CF, Link, Ike, Ganon, Jiggly, or Bowser who probably won't be tournament viable either way); The leftover characters who do have quite a few 7:3 matchups also have have quite a bit of only slight advantages as well also a good amount of even matchups (MUCH more so than Meta Knight and Snake).
The Mids can compete
against each other. They cannot against the Tops and Highs. Which means the game is imbalanced.
Hey, if we're doing this for Brawl, let's do it for Melee! Let's take out the Top 5 characters in Melee (5/26 is roughly the same as 7/39 (I was generous))! Guess what, the game just became totally different and a lot more balanced.
Hey atleast he wasn't pichu... he sucked against everyone...
Sakurai was doing crack when they were creating him... It was like he made a competition on who could make the ****tiest clone... and guess what all the clones are worse than the original but we all know who won...
Doctor Mario disagrees.
