Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[AlexX]

That's why all the cool people play IaMP. : )

I personally prefer Monster, myself.

 

[Fawriel]

I come here once in a while, and I can't still believe this is a matter of discussion. I see that people like Yuna wants to state that Brawl is not balanced, etc. And yes.. its balance is not perfect. But it is much much better than Melee. Don't you already see it? There are much more characters being able to hold their own on tournaments. Go to the "Best Vids of Each Character" thread so you see how far can every character go. There are few if not any worthless characters. And as I continue to say over and over .. don't you see how many moves were fixed so they could be usable on combat? Brawl has a supreme work on this.. Every B and A move is .if not spammable, at least useful. In Melee there were many moves that were too easy to block an punish. They were too slow, or too laggy, or too weak. See how Ness was fixed. How DK was fixed. How Peach was fixed. Zelda. Kirby. Can you deny it? If you could make a list of Brawl useless moves... it would be much more smaller than those from Melee. Then, as all characters have usable moves. All characters have good potential. There may be a few better gifted characters, but the majority is usable and power-capable. It is just irrational to say Melee is a more balanced game.

Please establish your precise definition of the term "balance". Please also consider how it relates to "competitive balance".

 

[eskimo bob]

That's why all the cool people play IaMP. : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QLP03Kdd8w

I main Sakuya, you?

I personally prefer Monster, myself.

... I'm starting to wonder if I am the only person here who plays street fighter...

I would read that guilty gear tutorial but it's too much text and I'm on vacation.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Taken from Wikipedia:

Game balance is a concept in game design describing fairness or balance of power in a game between multiple players or strategic options. A game would be called unbalanced if one or more players have an unfair advantage over the others.

A more complex definition of game balance that critics have described is that, when players have multiple options or routes to victory, most or all of these options are about equally effective or feasible. To be perfectly balanced, each of these options would have to be strategically identical (in which case they wouldn't be substantial choices at all). In a game where various options (such as armies in a real-time strategy game, fighters in a fighting game, or character classes in a role-playing game) have significant qualitative differences between them, the game is balanced if the options are roughly equally likely to lead to success despite their differences. In a suitably balanced game, players would make such choices based on their personal preference, strengths, and playing style, rather than on an inherent advantage in one option. If one option were weaker than the others, then it would rarely be selected by any player and will not contribute to the complexity of the game.

When trying to create a complex or strategically rich game, game designers typically strive to maintain balance by using a careful selection of game mechanics, while offering the greatest possible number of these options, which in turn increases the difficulty of balancing the game. Balanced games are generally more enjoyable, and are considered better-made, than unbalanced ones.

Theres is balance inside a Character, and balance between characters. Balance within a Charater is important so to the many options he has when fighting are equally effective, or usable depending on situation. I mean if a character has 2 very good moves an the rest are crap. He is not balanced. And you will only be using those moves. Brawl made an amazing job in this.
Balance between characters is what we often speak about. But .. if you think of it.. They have a relation. If the many moves of a character are good and usable (even spammable, which is better than useless, ex. mach tornado), the character can do well in combat. So.. if every character has a set of good moves (let's say, almost every move, some others will depend on situation off course). It is much more likely that there will be balance between characters. I don't think that balance between a character leads to balance between characters.. there has to be overall tunning . It is still, a hard job to do.. but.. so far... those nerfs, buffs and changes in Brawl from Melee, all have lead to a more balanced game. If you take Melee Ness vs Fox.. and Brawl Ness vs Fox.. which is more balanced? Melee Sheik vs Kirby.. against Brawl Sheik vs Kirby ... Brawl is more balanced. Speaking about Ganondorf, Jigglypuff and Falcon.. we still have to see how far players can go. (I don't mention Yoshi as I am convinced he is good. ) But still, we are talking about 4 characters from 39.

 

[Toadsanime]

Don't answer for other people, especially since you're not even knowledgeable enough to qualify for pariticipating in this thread. What makes you think you know enough to speak on my behalf?

You're welcome. Lovely to see you can at least be grateful for others trying to back up your points. Even though I've just sided with you, you still try to belittle me...?

Who's to say I said it to speak on your behalf, anyway? Rather, I could of simply of been pointing out why others were wrong, just as you have done many times.

The knowledge needed to make my last reply had nothing to do with the thread. What I stated was simply common sense and was a direct reply towards someone that I felt was wrong. Therefore, I replied to them. It unfortunately just-so-happened that one of their comments remarked about you.

I also love the way that you're annoyed at me for 'speaking on your behalf', despite approximately a hundred others here doing the exact same thing, some of which were aimed at me whilst we were debating earlier. Yet, you did not ward them away, and in some cases even thanked them.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Once again Morpheus, a lot of points, but not much support. What makes Yoshi good? And how do those specific matchups make people worry less about Snake and Metaknight?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Once again Morpheus, a lot of points, but not much support. What makes Yoshi good? And how do those specific matchups make people worry less about Snake and Metaknight?

I ask you.. what makes Yoshi bad? He has long second jump with super armor. Now he can recover with Up B. He is not slow, his attacks have good range and are not weak. All of his B moves can do quite well in combat. Tell me .. why is he so bad?

I also want to mention that the fact a Noob can do better with a character does not prove he is more gifted. There are characters harder to use than others and they can become more powerful. Let's take an example from Melee: Fox. Fox is a fast faller and for Noobs that is deadly. For pros.. it is a good thing. Fox was the most powerful character , but he was hard to master . A Noob with Fox couldn't do much. I can guarantee that in a Noob match.. Kirby vs Fox.. Kirby would win. At high levels of play... that was difficult.

 

[Toadsanime]

I ask you.. what makes Yoshi bad? He has long second jump with super armor. Now he can recover with Up B. He is not slow, his attacks had good range and are not weak. All of his B moves can do quite well in combat. Tell me .. why is he so bad?

I main Yoshi, but he does have one major flaw: his shielding techniques.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

not just shielding. his priority isn't much either.

 

[Zankoku]

I can guarantee that in a Noob match.. Kirby vs Fox.. Kirby would win. At high levels of play... that was difficult.

Uh, wrong. Even at the low level of play, Kirby was terrible and Fox's smash attacks had good knockback and Fox moved around pretty fast in general. Kirby.... catches himself on fire when he does a dash attack. I don't even know how you can get this wrong, unless you didn't play Melee at all.

 

[Toadsanime]

not just shielding. his priority isn't much either.

Uh... what? Priority? The priority of his character has nothing to do with why he may or may not be a weak character.

 

[Zankoku]

Uh... what? Priority? The priority of his character has nothing to do with why he may or may not be a weak character.

Tell that to Sonic and Captain Falcon. Sure, they may be awesomely fast and stuff, but what's that going to matter when every single one of their attacks gets beaten out by the other player's?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Uh, wrong. Even at the low level of play, Kirby was terrible and Fox's smash attacks had good knockback and Fox moved around pretty fast in general. Kirby.... catches himself on fire when he does a dash attack. I don't even know how you can get this wrong, unless you didn't play Melee at all.

Yes.. he was catch on fire , but then he could fly. Fox was too fast to be controlled by a Noob. And in the mids of confusion you could often fall to death.

 

[Tenki]

Tell that to Sonic and Captain Falcon. Sure, they may be awesomely fast and stuff, but what's that going to matter when every single one of their attacks gets beaten out by the other player's?

It's not that big of a problem, at least not for Sonic.

Partly because SWF makes such a big deal out of it that they people get caught off guard when Sonic outprioritizes one of their attacks with U-air, F-air, D-air, Fsmash, F-tilt, D-smash, U-smash, or Side-B's invincibility frames. Or clang moves with spin charge.

But also because most good Sonic players won't attack to 'clang' but instead try to beat out attacks and abuse landing lag/post attack lag. The grab game also tends to be abused as much as possible.

The only times I've been annoyed by Sonic's priority is against characters with high aerial priority like Luigi, Wario, Jigglypuff, and Peach, but that's mostly solved by switching to ground vs aerial game and using shields, baits or just plain attacking from a different angle.

There's always the whole "outplaying" your opponent with better reading, baits, mindgames and pressure.

`.`;

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah priority is very very important in brawl. priority whores like MK eat up Yoshi's

 

[Zankoku]

Yes.. he was catch on fire , but then he could fly. Fox was too fast to be controlled by a Noob. And in the mids of confusion you could often fall to death.

Oh, you're talking about the newbs who don't ever shield and just mash on the controller until they fall off the stage and die, then. The ones who have no idea of how to play and thus are completely irrelevant to any discussion about balance.

There's always the whole "outplaying" your opponent with better reading, baits, mindgames and pressure.

I live for this ****. It's the only way to win in Brawl and still feel like I actually won.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Ankoku glitched the page >_>

 

[Toadsanime]

yeah priority is very very important in brawl. priority whores like MK eat up Yoshi's

You're not listening, nor did you read the whole of the conversation.
Yes, priority is very important, but priority isn't something that actually makes Yoshi 'suck'. It's just the outcome.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

You're not listening, nor did you read the whole of the conversation.
Yes, priority is very important, but priority isn't something that actually makes Yoshi 'suck'. It's just the outcome.

i did read it. a while ago i also asked the same question of why Yoshi sucks. b/c like you i didn't see anything too wrong with him. what i learned was Yoshi is mediocre at best. he does have good strength, weight, speed, reach, recovery, a passable projectile, some good approachs like shfl Bair, and an ok grab. As a negative he also has not so great priority, his recovery is passable but still gimpable and has less SA frames than Melee, he can't outcamp anyone else who has a projectile, and out of shield options are limited. Practically anything he can do other characters can do just as well with maybe a bonus to it, or just outshine him completely.

for more ask a Yoshi main like Fawriel since his answer to my question about why Yoshi is bad is like 100+ pages back. This is really all i remember.

 

[Toadsanime]

i did read it. a while ago i also asked the same question of why Yoshi sucks. b/c like you i didn't see anything too wrong with him. what i learned was Yoshi is mediocre at best. he does have good strength, weight, speed, reach, recovery, a passable projectile, some good approachs like shfl Bair, and an ok grab. As a negative he also has not so great priority, his recovery is passable but still gimpable and has less SA frames than Melee, he can't outcamp anyone else who has a projectile, and out of shield options are limited. Practically anything he can do other characters can do just as well with maybe a bonus to it, or just outshine him completely.

for more ask a Yoshi main like Fawriel since his answer to my question about why Yoshi is bad is like 100+ pages back. This is really all i remember.

You've misunderstood my original post, then.

1) I'm a Yoshi main.
2) I know that Yoshi has many flaws. One person explained only the advantages of playing as Yoshi and asked what was wrong with him. As such, I answered 'one major flaw he has is his shielding techniques.' From there on, you responded to me with an irrelevant comment regarding his priority. I'm aware his priority is low, but it's not a flaw in his moveset, as that doesn't even make sense.

 

[Binx]

Yoshi sucks because

1) He has little range
2) He has little priority so when an attack does go off it has a higher chance of being hit through by other attacks. Now these two are HUGE and your argument for why they dont matter is because if you are better than the person you are playing against it won't matter, while partially true is also ******** because obviously if you had the same skill w/o these disadvantages you would be better off.
3)Implying he will be better because he is hard to learn. First of all this is ridiculous, in fact it's a disadvantage because you will have less people playing him there for less people finding good strategies. Also sheik from melee MIRITE.
4)Bad shield game in a game where defensive play is very important. Oh im sorry your right this is a pro for yoshi, this way you wont be easily blocking and countering, I feel dumb for listing this but I'm going to leave it up here anyways.
5)Predictable attacks. Most of Yoshis kill moves are predictable and without double jump cancels and crouch cancels he had from melee if will be difficult to land these.

There you go, this is why Yoshi sucks complete and utter *** hole. Good luck with moving him forward though, it would be cool to see Yoshi do well, he's smexy.

EDIT: What the hell do you mean low priority isn't a flaw. Did you ride the short bus to school today?

 

[Fawriel]

Yoshi is not good because he can be KO'd and can't KO back. He has a bunch of glaring flaws and only marginal strengths to make up for it. They messed up just about EVERYTHING about him that they could mess up. By which I mean the down-smash. ... you don't need to look further than that, really.

... also, I may be a Yoshi main, but.. like.. I only just got the game and barely played it. Please don't expect my understanding of him to be overwhelming. ^^;


As for the discussion on balance, err...Morpheus? I'm too lazy to check back on the post to look for the name. Anyway! Those changes are all well and good ( though I will hit you if you claim that the nerfs applied to Samus, Ganondorf, Falcon and Yoshi aren't absolutely ******** ), but... you still didn't say anything about the new characters. Metaknight is practically Sheik+Marth+Jigglypuff. Snake is Ganondorf*Bowser+Samus. G&W is G&W except that every move has been replaced with Marth's tippered fsmash. And ROB simply has no weaknesses.

If you look at the mid-tier, YES, the game IS balanced all nice and well, but if you look at EVERYTHING, then you'll notice that Captain Falcon just cannot win against Metaknight unless the difference in skill is the size of Mexico. I would not be surprised if the match-up was actually impossible if the Metaknight player is one who knows everything there is to know about the character. And there's no match-up in Melee that's impossible.


... out of curiousity, I heard that the worst match-up in Melee is Pichu vs. Ice Climbers. Why is that? I would've expected Pichu to be worst against Marth or something...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Well Fawriel since you answered my similar question about Yoshi a while back i just thought you knew more about him to elaborate further beyond what i remembered.

 

[Tenki]

4)Bad shield game in a game where defensive play is very important. Oh im sorry your right this is a pro for yoshi, this way you wont be easily blocking and countering, I feel dumb for listing this but I'm going to leave it up here anyways.
From my experience fighting competent Yoshi mains (wifi), when they play defensively, they don't resort to shield. They tend to resort to walking away/out of range (and countering with a B-air>juggle/combo) or a retreating pivot grab.

5)Predictable attacks. Most of Yoshis kill moves are predictable and without double jump cancels and crouch cancels he had from melee if will be difficult to land these.
Can you name all of Snake's kill moves? Good. Can you tell when you get above Snake that he's going to try to U-tilt? How can Snake then land kills when the person he's up against knows his kill moves and their range? Mindgames. And mind you, mindgames aren't necessarily character-specific.

EDIT: What the hell do you mean low priority isn't a flaw. Did you ride the short bus to school today?

Low priority is a flaw, but it tends to be blown up to be a much bigger deal than it really is, especially for certain... faster characters.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Good Snake's don't just throw around up tilts. They use it to eat through the opponent's approaches. Because nothing short of invincibility frames is going to beat this hitbox.

Low priority is a major flaw, but thankfully speed is also a major plus. But when fighting a fast character with good priority, you begin to see just how much of a flaw that low priority is (Metaknight, Luigi, ect.)
You can get around this flaw...if you are better than your opponent (especially if they're bad at the matchup), but that's true about pretty much everything. Sonic's lucky in that his priority isn't as bad as people think it is (I love eating through attacks with uairs, side B, ect), so in most matchups it's workable. But when fighting Metaknight (who is one of the most used characters), it make's the match really hard.

 

[Tenki]

Good Snake's don't just throw around up tilts. They use it to eat through the opponent's approaches. Because nothing short of invincibility frames is going to beat this hitbox.

Exactly. And in the same sense, good __________ mainers don't just throw around their kill moves. Predictability seems to be a moot argument.

Low priority is a major flaw, but thankfully speed is also a major plus. But when fighting a fast character with good priority, you begin to see just how much of a flaw that low priority is (Metaknight, Luigi, ect.)
You can get around this flaw...if you are better than your opponent (especially if they're bad at the matchup), but that's true about pretty much everything. Sonic's lucky in that his priority isn't as bad as people think it is (I love eating through attacks with uairs, side B, ect), so in most matchups it's workable. But when fighting Metaknight (who is one of the most used characters), it make's the match really hard.

What makes the MK matchup so hard isn't his priority as it is the lack of lag in his attacks. He has surprisingly fast runspeed as an extra bonus, making it easy to chase most other characters, and quick, nearly-lagless attacks, so he's fast overall.

---------
reply to SC's next post:
- MK's forward air has a bit of post-attack lag.

reply to Binx's next post:
- All true. My main point was that citing predictability seems to be a moot point.
Also, Yoshis can kill with U-air and edgeguarding as well as smashes. I believe he can also juggle/combo into his kill moves from his aerials, so if you get hit by a retaliatory B-air at a high %, you could die. I'll have to double check that one later, since I forgot if that was vs his Samus or Yoshi.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

>____>

Priority is still key here. When your F-smash is pretty much eaten alive by MK's forward air...

Smooth Criminal

 

[Binx]

Tenki sure those certain faster characters can get around low priority but those certain faster characters aren't yoshi. As far as walking away instead of shielding thats all well and good, but taking away an option isn't good either way you look at it. Snakes kill moves and Yoshi's kill moves are much different. For one Snakes kill moves are a lot less punishable because where Yoshi is going to use a laggy smash snake is going to use a low lag tilt, Snakes kill moves have less start up time, more range, more priority and control more space if he misses. Mario's smashes come out faster are generally stronger control more space and have less ending lag that Yoshi's kill moves also, and he has a better shield game, you see it isn't just snake that is a lot better than Yoshi it's most characters, also most of the cast is more mobile. Now if I were to fight a good Yoshi I can't really tell you how well I'd do for the first few matches because I am not that knowledgeable on him in a style sense, I won't know what combos or semi combos, when to expect edge guards and how to effectively edge guard Yoshi but from what I've seen I am confident in my analysis and am sure that given players of similar skill Yoshi would lose in nearly every match up if not all match ups.

 

[Lawlb0t]

Imo I think its obvious that Brawl is broken.

I don't use Link or Samus, but why the hell did they remove grappling walls and only being able to grapple ledges? Snake has some huge broken hit boxes. Theres the priority issue. The top tiers are not fast fallers (fast fallers don exits) and cannot get **** combo'd.

The list goes on. Melee had broken things, but imo the way it was distributed was a hell of alot better then this game. Characters are fckin mad stacked in this game.

 

[bigman40]

Okay....How the **** did a discussion about how Yoshi sucks and what not get here?

 

[Mmac]

-_- Why the hell do we have these bunch of discussions? It seems like if anyone Mentions the "Y" Word, then 15 people break in and discuss why he sucks and nobody should ever use him, even though THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC IN THE FIRST PLACE. Now I gotta defend because the reasons on why are complete bull****.

Yoshi sucks because

1) He has little range

BULL****! I seen characters with way less range than Yoshi and get treated alot better than him. Yoshi's Range is fine.

2) He has little priority so when an attack does go off it has a higher chance of being hit through by other attacks. Now these two are HUGE and your argument for why they dont matter is because if you are better than the person you are playing against it won't matter, while partially true is also ******** because obviously if you had the same skill w/o these disadvantages you would be better off.

I still don't know where this "Yoshi's Priority is crapzardz!" stuff is coming from. Yoshi's Priority is very average at best. Almost all of Yoshi moves cancel out almost everyone elses moves, even very strong attacks.

3)Implying he will be better because he is hard to learn. First of all this is ridiculous, in fact it's a disadvantage because you will have less people playing him there for less people finding good strategies. Also sheik from melee MIRITE.

I don't think a Characters diffucultiy should have any impact on how well the character is. Only when the character is played to the max of their potential. Take Voldo from Soul Calibur for example. He's an awkward character to play as, and looks completely garbage on the outside, but devastating on the inside once you Master him. Yoshi is not a character you can just pick up and start owning people with.

4)Bad shield game in a game where defensive play is very important. Oh im sorry your right this is a pro for yoshi, this way you wont be easily blocking and countering, I feel dumb for listing this but I'm going to leave it up here anyways.

Not going to deny that Yoshi's Sheild game is pretty bad, but I won't say it completely cripples him. However he's got Pivot Grabs to replace it now, which can work even better in most cases

5)Predictable attacks. Most of Yoshis kill moves are predictable and without double jump cancels and crouch cancels he had from melee if will be difficult to land these.

Predictable? Are you Kidding me? Almost all of Yoshi's moves come out Lighting Fast! Really only Fsmash and Fair are his only Slow ones, but Dragonic Reversing makes him even more unpredictable with his attacks and movement.

Tenki sure those certain faster characters can get around low priority but those certain faster characters aren't yoshi. As far as walking away instead of shielding thats all well and good, but taking away an option isn't good either way you look at it. Snakes kill moves and Yoshi's kill moves are much different. For one Snakes kill moves are a lot less punishable because where Yoshi is going to use a laggy smash snake is going to use a low lag tilt, Snakes kill moves have less start up time, more range, more priority and control more space if he misses.

You think Yoshi is going to Spam Fsmash's all day? You think ANYONE is going to spam ANYTHING all day? Besides, Yoshi has alot more than Fsmash to kill. Uair, Usmash's, and Ground DownB's also Kill at pretty decent %'s. Just because He doesn't have extreamly overpowered Tilts like Snake, doesn't make him suck. Infact why all this comparison to Snake? You can make anyone who isn't MetaKnight look complete garbage by comparing it to him.

Mario's smashes come out faster are generally stronger control more space and have less ending lag that Yoshi's kill moves also, and he has a better shield game, you see it isn't just snake that is a lot better than Yoshi it's most characters, also most of the cast is more mobile.

Again, what the hell are you talking about? Mario's Fsmash has the same Startup Lag as Yoshi Fsmash, and they're pretty much equal in power. And EVERYONE has a better shield game than Yoshi because EVERYONE HAS THE SAME FRICKEN SHIELD! And not Mobile enough? Yoshi is one of the fastest characters in the game for **** sake! He's faster than 2/3's of the roster.

Now if I were to fight a good Yoshi I can't really tell you how well I'd do for the first few matches because I am not that knowledgeable on him in a style sense, I won't know what combos or semi combos, when to expect edge guards and how to effectively edge guard Yoshi

Now if I were to fight a good Yoshi

a good Yoshi

DEAR GOD! If you haven't fought a Good Yoshi, then why are you debating so much on why he sucks! OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO THINK HE SUCKS IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED ANYONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO USE HIM!

but from what I've seen I am confident in my analysis and am sure that given players of similar skill Yoshi would lose in nearly every match up if not all match ups.

Confident eh? How can you be so confident if you don't even know what he's capable of?

This is so stupid -_-

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@Mmac
This topic does have a tendancy to go into details of why X character sucks or is not so good because of (explanation). Its not just Yoshi who is/was talked about. The PT and why he sucks has been brought up like 4 times.

 

[gantrain05]

marth, samus, pika, MK, Luigi, lucas, peach, olimar, rob, G&W, falco, fox, wolf, squirtle, charizard, DK, zelda, sheik, Zamus, Sonic, TL, Link, Mario, Lucario, Kirby, Ike, Ness, just off the top of my head, characters that either outrange, outprioritize, or have faster Fsmashes than yoshi, in some cases all 3 advantages, so yeah yoshis Fsmash is pretty garbage.

 

[General_Zod]

brawl is more balanced than melee. In brawl every character has the same opportunity of being completely obliterated by Snake or Meta Knight. That's balance

 

[Toadsanime]

brawl is more balanced than melee. In brawl every character has the same opportunity of being completely obliterated by Snake or Meta Knight. That's balance

I sincerly hope that was a joke.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

even if he wasn't it is something universal to ALL characters.

 

[Mmac]

marth, samus, pika, MK, Luigi, lucas, peach, olimar, rob, G&W, falco, fox, wolf, squirtle, charizard, DK, zelda, sheik, Zamus, Sonic, TL, Link, Mario, Lucario, Kirby, Ike, Ness, just off the top of my head, characters that either outrange, outprioritize, or have faster Fsmashes than yoshi, in some cases all 3 advantages, so yeah yoshis Fsmash is pretty garbage.

The importance of a Smash goes Speed > Range > Priority. Yoshi Fsmash comes out Faster or equal to about half of those characters, and also outrange's half also. Yoshi has some priority, but due to the Hitbox actually shifting into his head when doing it, makes it kinda funky. It doesn't really matter though, because If done simultaneously, then Yoshi will get the hit in first on half of those characters anyways. Although Yoshi's Fsmash should be the primary attack in the first place anyways when he has better attack to kill in the first place

 

[ArcPoint]

Wow, I'm surprised this is still going on.

I'd say it's pretty obvious Melee is more balanced, simply because everyone had more options than in Brawl.

For example, Melee Low Tier character X may have had 35 options ( I don't know, just a random number) While Brawl Low Tier character Y only has 20 options due to laggy aerials, and spacing issues. In Melee a character like this wouldn't have too bad of a time, Wavedashing worked very well for spacing and L cancelling helped out with laggy aerials, so basically the low tier characters had more of a chance than in Brawl. If you're Captain Falcon, you don't have a chance against Metaknight.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Wow, I'm surprised this is still going on.

I'd say it's pretty obvious Melee is more balanced, simply because everyone had more options than in Brawl.

For example, Melee Low Tier character X may have had 35 options ( I don't know, just a random number) While Brawl Low Tier character Y only has 20 options due to laggy aerials, and spacing issues. In Melee a character like this wouldn't have too bad of a time, Wavedashing worked very well for spacing and L cancelling helped out with laggy aerials, so basically the low tier characters had more of a chance than in Brawl. If you're Captain Falcon, you don't have a chance against Metaknight.

I agree with the logic employed, but comparing the very top to the very bottom of Brawl is not a fair assessment, as Brawl has 39 fighters to melee's 26.

In other words, while Melee is probably more balanced than Brawl because of the greater number of universal options, it is only fair to compare characters that are within 26 places of eachother, like maybe R.O.B. to PT instead of MK to Captain Falcon.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

while that may seem fairer to compare, you will see mostly top characters used in tourneys, especially later in the tourneys closer to the finals.

also tiers do take into consideration the characters matchups against all the other characters don't they?