Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Falconv1.0]

. However, previously rubbish characters like Zelda and Peach are stronger.

You're a ****ing idiot.

 

[PraKirJaq]

However, previously rubbish characters like Zelda and Peach are stronger.

Wait, what?


And if you're saying Melee was centralized, Brawl isn't much better with Snake and Metaknight as the dominating forces.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

LOL peach was one of the more dominant characters in melee... wow.

Faclon and peach major contenders in all major midwest tournies.

Fox,Falco,Falcon,peach,marth,sheik were the chars that consistantly won major midwest tournies. Jiggs,climbers,ganon, and samus were other chars that placed pretty high.

 

[PassWurD]

Yay idiots with the join date of 2008 )_)

At least try to lurk the Melee boards harder before trying to prove yourself...

 

[MarKO X]

It was a joke.
but i have seen some weird and difficult Zangeif + Assist Infinites.

This pretty much screams "I sucked at Melee". Don't deny it, if you think peach was rubbish, and that she got buffed, think again.

Yeah, see, I have a hard time telling what's sarcasm and what's not on the net.

And to the guy who said that Peach got buffed in Brawl... then you just told on yourself in sooooooooo many ways its ********.

Edit: the guy below me corrected a minor error.

 

[metaXzero]

^Problem solved

 

[Fletch]

I don't need to repeat it, but I will to make sure everyone knows that you're an idiot Gygados. Peach was a high tier, only slightly behind Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falco, won tournaments, and was a pretty **** good character overall. Now in Brawl she is maybe a decent mid-tier, yet she was buffed? Please explain how that is possible, or better yet, stop posting here because you obviously have no idea what you are talking about (yet another ignorant '08er? who would have thought)...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

last i checked Peach was considered bottom of mid Tier.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

last i checked Peach was considered bottom of mid Tier.

i hope you don't mean in melee....

 

[JigglyZelda003]

no, in brawl. i know Peach was good in melee

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yes, I was plenty good at Melee, dankeshön. Please don't jump to conclusions without proof like that to prove a point. It shows you're desperate to insult someone, and that you can't think of a good insult.

Lol. Beating your friends and local peons at a Gamestop tourney does not count.

And we're not desperate to insult anybody. Quite frankly, you're making an *** out of yourself just fine with your unsubstantiated claims about Brawl's balance and your apparent "plenty goodness" at Melee.

So, please.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Falconv1.0]

your apparent "plenty goodness" at Melee.

Something about that made me laugh.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

So we all agree Brawl is more broken. Close this thread?

 

[Red the Ghost]

Snake
</thread>

I'm kidding. Anyway, I don't think Brawl is more balanced than Melee. It seems as if it's actually harder to win with low-tiered characters. If two players close in skill played Brawl, one played as Snake and the other as Bowser, I can't really see the Bowser ever winning. (Please note the "close in skill.")

...and there is way too much flame in here.

 

[Yawnbored]

I think it's less balanced. But I think that most of it comes from lack of play testing if anything. I mean, take Snake for instance, it's not really his moveset that's inherently broken, it's the sick priority and attributes (like knockback, damage etc) that go along with it. Or even something like Marth's chaingrab on Ness... That just seems like something that was completely overlooked when they were making it because they released the game to early... Which makes sense with all the delays they had.

 

[Deathcarter]

I think it's less balanced. But I think that most of it comes from lack of play testing if anything. I mean, take Snake for instance, it's not really his moveset that's inherently broken, it's the sick priority and attributes (like knockback, damage etc) that go along with it. Or even something like Marth's chaingrab on Ness... That just seems like something that was completely overlooked when they were making it because they released the game to early... Which makes sense with all the delays they had.

We all figured that out before the game even came out in the US.


Look on the bright side everyone, the Brawl metagame will be completely balanced when all of the great players finally start to exclusively use Snake and Meta in tournaments. Its inevitable.

 

[Frown]

Snake/Metaknight
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
-High tier-
-Middle tier-
-Low tier-
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
GAP
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

 

[AzN_Lep]

Hmmm I haven't really bothered to read a whole lot of this, so I'm pretty sure this has already been mentioned, but I figure there's no harm in saying it again.

Melee is much more balanced than Brawl at both the higher end of the tier and the full gamut of characters. In Melee you saw Marth, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach, IC, Falcon and Jiggs winning tournaments. Not just local tournaments either, even in national tournaments any of these characters could potentially win.

In Brawl you have Snake and Metaknight... maaaybe Wario, but seems like there's only a handful of those.

That's not to say Brawl doesn't have any balance though. With the exception of Metaknight and Snake all the high to mid tier characters can battle fairly evenly, granted of course Marth, ROB, etc are amongst the better characters. There's just a greater gap between the top characters and the rest of the cast; however the rest of the cast can be potentially more balanced than Melee's sub-par tiers. In general within any given tier (minus the top), characters in Brawl battle more evenly than characters in Melee. However there's a greater gap between each tier in Brawl than that of Melee.

At first Brawl seems like a more balanced game because of the easy learning curve. Regardless how little you've been playing, you're probably going to take some stocks in a random tournament match. Hooray. This however is misleading, since Brawl's current skill gap is much less than that of Melee's, characters become far more important. In Melee, a fantastic Mewtwo or Pichu could topple mediocre Marths and Foxes. Taj and Chu are great examples of this. Currently in Brawl even the best Falcons and Jiggs will have a substantially more difficult time against mediocre Metaknights and Snakes. With a smaller bridge in skill gap, characters become much more influential even if the characters appear to be closer in balance.

This of course, is not to say there will never be a great Falcon in Brawl. The game still has the potential to show and evolving metagame that could prove that low tiers stand a chance against the likes of Metaknights and Snakes. However as things are now, Melee proves from Top to Bottom to be the more balanced game.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Snake and Metaknight...


What about Mr. Game and Watch? If people are seriously saying Brawl is unbalanced because of the dominance of Snake and Metaknight in tournaments, then they at least need to explain why other equally broken characters are not as successful.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

G&W isn't as popular as Snake and MK. thats why he's often not mentioned with them. he's just as good just not picked as much.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

G&W isn't as popular as Snake and MK. thats why he's often not mentioned with them. he's just as good just not picked as much.

Exactly my point; he's just as good, but not picked as much. Therefore, to say Brawl has only two winning characters when an equal like GW is simply not picked as much, doesn't say anything about balance. If anything it's deceptive, making the illusion that there are only two characters that can win tournaments.

 

[popsofctown]

Snake and Metaknight...


What about Mr. Game and Watch? If people are seriously saying Brawl is unbalanced because of the dominance of Snake and Metaknight in tournaments, then they at least need to explain why other equally broken characters are not as successful.

I don't think Mr. Game and Watch is as broken as Meta Knight. Part of Game & Watch's power is that there are several mid and low tier characters, maybe one or two highs, that he can completely shut down in a way that barely allows response. I've heard it said many times that "some characters cannot answer the turtle". While that is an exaggeration, the turtle can clamp a lot of control over the match, making it very tough for a character to fight back at all.

When Game and Watch gets into matchups that he can't control with the turtle/can't control with his disjoint aerial game, (i have to metion the lid too), he runs into trouble. He has a weakness. He can't do the turtle any faster, he has to do without. That's why Marth and Olimar can beat him, and others too.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh i see. i know the turtle is essential, as well as his aerials, but i didn't know he can be shut out so easily. even still hes a very good character reguardless, that shuts down alot of the cast anyway.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

We all figured that out before the game even came out in the US.


Look on the bright side everyone, the Brawl metagame will be completely balanced when all of the great players finally start to exclusively use Snake and Meta in tournaments. Its inevitable.

Or when we ban them
Seriously, if that happened it would be as balanced as Melee

 

[Digimonkey]

Except they're not dead once their 2nd jumps are gone. And they can meteor cancel. Kirby's recovery is friggin' good in this game because he's so floaty and he has 4 jumps + Up B. His recovery is not the best, but it's far from Yoshi-like.

Also, I said one of the worst, not the worst.

Your right, but I wasn't referring to the Yoshi part, I was correcting you when you said "Everyone's recovery has gotten a boost". Fox doesn't have better or more recoveries than in Melee, and his Up-B is less; don't forget that.

 

[metaXzero]

But he doesn't fall as fast. That helps his recovery.

 

[Zankoku]

He's also lost a lot of his after-Up+B horizontal movement. That hurts his recovery. He's also got a LOT more landing lag from his Up+B than he did in Melee.

 

[popsofctown]

Or when we ban them
Seriously, if that happened it would be as balanced as Melee

Hit the nail on the head.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I don't think Mr. Game and Watch is as broken as Meta Knight. Part of Game & Watch's power is that there are several mid and low tier characters, maybe one or two highs, that he can completely shut down in a way that barely allows response. I've heard it said many times that "some characters cannot answer the turtle". While that is an exaggeration, the turtle can clamp a lot of control over the match, making it very tough for a character to fight back at all.

When Game and Watch gets into matchups that he can't control with the turtle/can't control with his disjoint aerial game, (i have to metion the lid too), he runs into trouble. He has a weakness. He can't do the turtle any faster, he has to do without. That's why Marth and Olimar can beat him, and others too.

I have to disagree. Mr. Game and Watch's turtle is powerful, but not the be-all-and-end-all of his moveset. I've seen some quite good Marths struggle in this matchup, even with a counterpick stage like Pokemon Stadium. While Marth is one of the better charactes in this matchup, it is important to remember the bucket, which stops any attempt to play defencively against this incredibly powerful offencive character for any character that relies on energy projectiles. Coupled with tilts that block most projectiles (d-tilt) and a huge recovery distance (I don't know enough about GW to know how gimpable it is or isn't) and some highly unusual attacks (Uair), GW is arguably top tier even without the turtle.

Or when we ban them
Seriously, if that happened it would be as balanced as Melee

Hit the nail on the head.

Learn to play the game.

I'm sorry, but although MK and Snake are doing the best in tournaments, Ice Climbers and Dedede still have excellent grabs, and GW is still MetaKnight level. The progression of ability from top to bottom tier is both gradual and smooth, eliminating two characters is doing nothing for Captain Falcon, Gannondorf, Luigi, Pit, Pikachu, or really anything beneath Olimar, Marth, Falco, GW, and Dedede's assumed tier placement.

 

[Zankoku]

Ice Climbers have an excellent grab game, but their grabs are garbage. Dedede's is actually good.

G&W loses a huge part of his zoning/pressure/approach game without his bair, which is part of the reason why he has such a bad matchup against Snake.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Ice Climbers have an excellent grab game, but their grabs are garbage. Dedede's is actually good.

G&W loses a huge part of his zoning/pressure/approach game without his bair, which is part of the reason why he has such a bad matchup against Snake.

I'll take your word on GW as I've only played against them, and rarely use him myself.

 

[metaXzero]

He's also lost a lot of his after-Up+B horizontal movement. That hurts his recovery. He's also got a LOT more landing lag from his Up+B than he did in Melee.

Ankoku. What did the increased landing lag have 2 do with Fox's ability to get back to the stage?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What this says to me is the top 4-5 chars are more balanced then the tier list would suggest and by moving everyone up and increasing the size of the Top, High, and Mid tiers that everyone is more viable against the tops. This would suggest that Melee is more balanced since we're talking about boosting everyone up since the tier doesn't do them justice.

Melee is more balanced than Brawl; you may now close this thread now.

jk But seriously thats the logical reasoning that would explain your sentiments.

I laughed at the last sentence, in a joking way, but anyways that is one of my sentiments on this topic. It does point to Melee being more balanced, rightfully so I don;t care for the topic of balance unless it's horribly apparent.

The main point on the bumping is Melee's tier list in the upper levels should be closer together. Marth and Shiek aren't that far in a power level from Fox and Falco that they need to be in a lower tier.

Azen winning and placing well with low tier Melee chars (Link or Luigi) isn't some unheard of phenomenon since they're not nearly as low as the ranking Low Tier would suggest. PC had an amazing G&W and Chu Dat had an awesome Pikachu aswell. Azen doing well with Lucario is niether an unprecedented or un-duplicable feat since Lucario isn't low tier and the matches that have been used as evidence feature Azen's Lucario vs. MKs. I beleive, as I've stated before that Lucario can have a decent matchup against MK due to how MK's metagame works. The same is not true against Snake.

I never thought it was uncommon. It just seemed like a double standard to use it for the Melee side but not the Brawl, but in this sense when you speak it clearly I can understand it a bit more.

Also, being very technical definetly doesn't make you victorious in smash. Ken is not known for his tech. Ken is known for winning.

This is true.

To some degree =/= Enough

Nobody cares if a character is viable enough to place Top10. That's not balance.

People do care if a character is capable of placing well enough. That means they have some form of viability, if you can top you have a capability of winning.

We said you cannot use single cases as examples. If so, Mewtwo is obviously pretty viable in Melee what with Taj and others around.

Then how can we fault Brawl for lack of viability when it's been virtually the same as when Melee came out? In Melee Shiek, Fox, and Falco were dominating tournament with other character randomly popping up.

In Brawl you can just replace Shiek, Fox, and Falco with Snake, Metaknight, and King Dedede.

Now compare that to how well the Tops and Highs have placed. We must also consider that a lot of these results come from smaller tournaments with a small concentration of skill. People are too lax about what tournaments qualify for these rankings.

Hate to break it to you but the mids aren't that far behind in the ranking list from the highs. If I were to use, lets say Peach in comparison to Mr. G&W the difference is going to be that much more noticeable.

Along with that you can't prove that the skill level was so low that we should refute each individual tournament your not happy with. Locals or other events are bound to have a lower skill level compared to major tournaments, this is a fact. A listing to the placing and an online confirmation are required to use it as part of the list.

Take it up Ankoku if you have a problem with how the system is set up.

Ranking battles and weeklies are allowed in! Of course bad players can win then. If, say, there's a weekly in New York City and that city's best player (present) happens to play Peach that day and manage a close win... that's skews the results.

How do you propose a standard to fix this then? You claim that bad players, even reference Dark.pch in this response, are going to win fights because everyone sucks worse. If so then
what is the right solution? Not allow any tournament that goes weekly? Lower attendance? lower cash prize? what?

Also, notice that while those mids mostly enjoy 3-5 wins each, the Tops and Highs are all in their 20+s by now. Good chances my tuchas.

Nice to see your making up results.

The only people who even have 20+ are Snake and Metaknight. all of the "highs" have at most, 14 by King Dedede, yet we have other like Donkey Kong who have 11.

Umm... no? I claimed people suck if they're getting owned by bad to useless characters. Because, really, if they're getting owned by them, then they just suck (or they're mediocore and the player they're facing is amazing).

Owned=/=close defeat

Who's to say that Tudor didn't win by 1-stock margins or rather Samus isn't as bad as your making her out to be.

Enjoy your infraction. Not only did you flame and use personal insults, you purposely circumvented the filters to do so.

I was a **** for saying "Obviously, your opinion should be law" when you claimed most of Melee's Bottoms should be Mid without providing any arguments for why?

How about you provide valid arguments for once instead of just saying "Things should be like this and this and this".

After I posted a point about how the current tier list of Melee was bottom heavy and pointed out by looking at it, how blatantly obvious it is. You continued your recent tend of, "no ur wrong, lol." I said what was needed to be said, you've become more rude to people in this topic.

A huge majority of the cast, 21/26 are in middle or lower. Sheik, Marth, and possibly Peach can easily compete with Fox and Falco, I'm not they are better or of equal in power to either of the spacies. I'm claiming that they are good enough to be in the same tier, as such other character should be position appropriately, after all a mid with 1-0 wouldn't make sense, as such everyone would move up one rank if they were high enough in their already positioned rank. (AKA, high bottom tier move into lower low tier.)

Thus your ignorant comment about bottom being mid makes you look more like you can't think on your own. I fail to see how hard it is to see how moving up from the bottom could magically make then jump to mid, when at most they could move up to lower low.

 

[Zankoku]

Ankoku. What did the increased landing lag have 2 do with Fox's ability to get back to the stage?

I did not say anything about that in particular hurting nor helping his ability to return to the stage, only the horizontal movement distance. Though it does make Fox's recovery become a lot unsafer.

 

[IrArby]

I agree with you Red Ryu that the Melee tier list is outdated. Marth/Fox matchup is 50/50 and Marth/Falco is more like 55/45. Shiek goes at least even with Falco, probably more and pretty close to even with Fox. Shiek still beats Marth 55/45 maybe 60/40 but I don't think quite that much.

With Melee though, we don't need the tier list at this point since everyone knows the matchups so well. As has been said many a time in this thread Individual Matchups>Tier lists. Also, Player skill> Tier lists. Though both are true the former is more true for Brawl and the latter more true in Melee.

 

[metaXzero]

But you did bring it up as if it affected recovery. >_> If it didn't effect his recovery (getting back to the stage) why mention it? Anyway most Fox's I've seen when they can't Phantasm to the stage usually up-B to the edge if possible. So the increased landing lag rarely comes up.

.......we were talking about Fox's recovery being nerfed/buffed/unchanged right (I'm sleepy)?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Now that I understand where Red Ryu was going with tier placements, I agree with him. The highest tier was too small in melee, while low tiers were crowded, and thus, characters that are placed in lower tiers than they belong are being used as exaples of low tier-high tier balance when they really don't belong in the tier they were set into. Correct, Red Ryu?

 

[IrArby]

Hey is this a commonplace kind of tactic or what? Run or dash, and tap shield just long enough to bring it up and cancel your run so you enter your slide animation. Immediately drop it and do any standing attack such as a jab combo or w/e.

Am I just incredibily late on this, ignorant or just very tired because I haven't heard of people doing this and theoritically, its sounds like a decent way to cancel you run into standing jabs, ftilts, w/e?

uhhh ignore this . . . the shield isn't as sensitive as it used to be as far as just tapping it to bring it up and drop it.

Edit: Congrats Ankoku on the 4000 post yipeee.

 

[Magus420]

But you did bring it up as if it affected recovery. >_> If it didn't effect his recovery (getting back to the stage) why mention it? Anyway most Fox's I've seen when they can't Phantasm to the stage usually up-B to the edge if possible. So the increased landing lag rarely comes up.

.......we were talking about Fox's recovery being nerfed/buffed/unchanged right (I'm sleepy)?

A good/bad recovery includes how punishable it is, and landing lag is relevant when discussing recovery. Abusable lag is why Sheik's recovery in Melee is considered much worse than it would be otherwise.

 

[metaXzero]

A good/bad recovery includes how punishable it is, and landing lag is relevant when discussing recovery. Abusable lag is why Sheik's recovery in Melee is considered much worse than it would be otherwise.

I thought Sheik's was bad due to her low horizontal speed combined with Vanish's short, predictable range (If you are edgehogging, it's not that hard 2 predict where Sheik will appear). And like I said, I was talking about just "getting back 2 the stage" recovery. The landing lag comes from successfully returning, so I don't see its how it help/hurts "getting back 2 the stage". It leaves Fox open upon returning, but it doesn't affect his ability to return...