Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[kupo15]

Leaf: Yea, I recognize the two different speeds, but I was interpreting speed as match time. I do acknowledge that melee is more complicated and requires more inputs and reactions than 64 and in that regard, it is faster.

 

[zxeon]

I have no Idea what you have against wavedashing Kupo. It makes the game faster and give it more depth whether you'll admit it or not. You're going to have to state (or restate) your case against wavedashing because I don't understand you hate about it.

 

[Alopex]

Im glad you didn't say wavedashing

Wut? Someone said 64 had WDing? That's lolz.

No your wrong but right on certain aspects such as ease of recovery and defensive nature. The game mechanics in brawl are slower than 64. 64 has z canceling which eliminates all aerial lag and brawl has no universal lag canceling. Even with brawl+, we are going to use half lag which is still slower than 64.

That's why I said 64 had fast aerials. It was the hitstun and the fast aerials that made the gameplay fast. Z canceling of course was a huge factor in what made an aerial "fast".
So I already acknowledged that facet of 64's speed, but unfortunately Z-canceling doesn't do anything for the rest of the mechanics, and it's in those mechanics that Brawl is faster.

Brawl's air speed is also slower than 64
Brawl's ground attacks and throws are slower than 64

If by air speed you mean fall speed.
Because I specifically said horizontal air speed, which is horrendous in 64. Compare 64 Jigglypuff to Brawl Jigglypuff. It's not even a contest. And that's the same with every character. Brawl has much faster horizontal air speed across the board.

Ground attacks faster? Not generally.
Smash attacks were super slow (again, especially without C-stick).
Shield drop lag was huge so attacking out of shield was crazy slow.
Jabs and tilts are mixed. Some were faster, some were slower. I don't think there's any Frame 1 ground attacks in 64, but we do have that in Brawl with ZSS jab. So it's character dependent for those moves. The previous 2 points, though, give Brawl a faster ground game.

Grabs are mixed. In general, yes, grabs in 64 were faster. But you had a much smaller cast. There are plenty of grabs in Brawl that are as fast or faster than 64 grabs. There's also pivot grabs in Brawl.

You seem to not know what DI is or how it affects the combo game if you keep refuting this.

DI is all fine and well but DI can only stop a combo if it can get you far enough away from your enemy before you're hit again. Saying that DI alone would be a sufficient "combo breaker" is naive, because Melee showed us that that is not the case. Even with all its wall techs, combos existed in Melee. It wasn't just DI'ing that made the combos in Melee non-broken, it was lower hitstun, which severely reduced the "combo window," thus making combos harder to pull off but still very much around. That's why I keep refuting it.

Because Melee already showed us what happens when you have DI and wall tech and hitstun. And it was balanced precisely because it reduced the hitstun from 64 ON TOP of adding everything else.

The only factor not addressed in Melee was high knockback. It's the only reason why 64 hitstun can even be considered for Brawl.

not that I know of. We shouldn't tamper with the knockback of moves.
We shouldn't tamper with gravity or knockback.

Alright, I'm cool with that. But without faster fast-falling, single use airdodges will never fly. OoS characters will be far too vulnerable with that floatiness and only one chance for air defense.

Here are the main reasons why 64's combos were so broken.

1. No DI
You had no control over how you flew after getting hit which means the opponent knows what move will come next since you go the same way every time.

2. No wall teching
You saw this a lot in hyrule castle with insane wall combos. Had you be able to tech, you would survive better. Let me refer you to this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urUBMrtXwyA&feature=related The first stock shows that if you had wall teching, that combo would not be broken and he could have survived that.

These are both true, but I'm still not convinced that 64 hitstun time wasn't a large factor.


HOWEVER:

Do I know that 64 hit stun is the perfect amount? Absolutely not! But am I willing to test it out? Yes. If it is too much, we scale it down. Why are you so against giving it a try? I agree that comboing shouldn't be as easy as 64.

I suggested that we start with 64 hit stun length then reduce the stun time if we feel its too much. Its easier to tell if you have too much and scale back then not enough and scale forward.

The 64 hit stun is a suggestion that we try, not a set in stone answer.

And of course, we should be looking down the road.

I agree with this.

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I have no Idea what you have against wavedashing Kupo. It makes the game faster and give it more depth whether you'll admit it or not. You're going to have to state (or restate) your case against wavedashing because I don't understand you hate about it.

I don't think it's the WD that he has problems with, but the actual airdodge.

I can understand that dislike. As I've stated before, a single-use AD system poses huge problems to OoS players with Brawl's floatiness. Being in the air for that long and having only one chance at defending yourself?
That's a problem.

Brawl makes OoS pressure extremely easy. Multiple ADs are what balance that out. Take out that balance and all of a sudden you've got Din's Fire, Pit's Arrows, and Jigglypuffs aerials killing everything and everyone with no counter.

 

[zxeon]

There is more than one way to avoid a midair attack, you can start your recovery early, you can parry the attack, you can use a special move that can counter the attack, and if you must use your only airdodge do it towards the stage. Pit's arrows won't be a problem because (correct me if I'm wrong) they give you your recovery back. Before there was ever pit there were Falco's lasers and Shiek's needles and we did just fine then. We've gotten too used to Brawls crutches.

 

[kupo15]

I like wavedashing and I think its a really neat tool and really fun to do....in melee.

Here are my reasons why I don't like it now:
1.WDing imbalances characters by
-Eliminating their weakness for being slow
-Eliminating their weakness to face projectiles
-Eliminating approach problems that characters has and equalizes the approach game
-Eliminating characteristics that make characters unique

2. By giving the player more options, you are actually making matches last longer

3. Brawl is more air based and the current air dodge is better fit for the air game than melee air dodge

If you have any questions that you would like me to elaborate on, please ask and I will elaborate. I would like to take one point at a time instead a huge post rebutting every point.

(I am not trying to sound like I know all or in charge or all powerful by saying that I will answer your questions for those who think this since it happened before)


EDIT: Getting to your post Alopex

 

[zxeon]

1. Wavedashing doesn't remove anything that is already there, and I know what you are thinking with Wavedashing around there is no reason to wing cancel or boost smash, but there is. If there isn't were those techniques even worth having around?

Slow characters are still slow movement speed is only half the reason they are slow the other half is the speed of thier attacks. You wouldn't know because you don't play with it but fast characters are still way faster than slow ones its just that everyone has more mobility now it looks that way.

Are you saying that you like how spammy Brawl is? Doesn't suprise me from someone who has Pit as an avatar and in thiers sig.

There is no way that wavedashing magically fixes a character's approach game. Not all moves are good for approach and I don't think any one approach has a no counter.

2. The only way giving someone more options would make the match last longer is if they decide to use their options to stall. Meanwhile thier opponent can use those same options to mount an attack.

3. Brawl isn't air based. That couldn't be farther from the truth because there is not an air move in the game that cannot be beaten by the stand still and sheild grab ground based strategy.

 

[5ive]

1. Wavedashing doesn't remove anything that is already there, and I know what you are thinking with Wavedashing around there is no reason to wing cancel or boost smash, but there is. If there isn't were those techniques even worth having around?

Slow characters are still slow movement speed is only half the reason they are slow the other half is the speed of thier attacks. You wouldn't know because you don't play with it but fast characters are still way faster than slow ones its just that everyone has more mobility now it looks that way.

Are you saying that you like how spammy Brawl is? Doesn't suprise me from someone who has Pit as an avatar and in thiers sig.

There is no way that wavedashing magically fixes a character's approach game. Not all moves are good for approach and I don't think any one approach has a no counter.

2. The only way giving someone more options would make the match last longer is if they decide to use their options to stall. Meanwhile thier opponent can use those same options to mount an attack.

3. Brawl isn't air based. That couldn't be farther from the truth because there is not an air move in the game that cannot be beaten by the stand still and sheild grab ground based strategy.

I agree,
Wavedashing isn't something that DRAMATICALLY improves characters. Wavedash DOES NOT make slow characters fast.
Adding Melee air dodge, is something insignificant, but at the same time, adds more depth to Brawl.

 

[kupo15]

Wut? Someone said 64 had WDing? That's lolz.

lol. No. What I ment by that is that you acknowledge that its the hit stun and fast aerials that were responsible for comboing and not wavedash. Ppl have been telling me that wavedash is responsible for creating combos in brawl and that is why it should be in.

That's why I said 64 had fast aerials. It was the hitstun and the fast aerials that made the gameplay fast. Z canceling of course was a huge factor in what made an aerial "fast".
So I already acknowledged that facet of 64's speed, but unfortunately Z-canceling doesn't do anything for the rest of the mechanics, and it's in those mechanics that Brawl is faster.

Oh ok, didn't put two and two together by saying that fast aerials is the same as z canceling. What other mechanics that make brawl fast that z canceling doesn't fix? Im pretty sure s canceling makes the game faster even by a little bit.

If by air speed you mean fall speed.
Because I specifically said horizontal air speed, which is horrendous in 64. Compare 64 Jigglypuff to Brawl Jigglypuff. It's not even a contest. And that's the same with every character. Brawl has much faster horizontal air speed across the board.
Ground attacks faster? Not generally.

Well, I said this because Im positive we concluded that air speed (horizontal) was faster (if you look at pika in 64 when he jumps from the air, I hardly see a momentum change opposed to brawl) and that there is more lag at the end of attacks (non smash attacks) Dont forget that landing on the ground from an up b in brawl has a demoralizing amount of lag that was added.

Smash attacks were super slow (again, especially without C-stick).

Seeing that you couldnt charge smash attacks, i dont see how a C-stick would change anything.

Shield drop lag was huge so attacking out of shield was crazy slow.

This is true, but you hardly see a pro use the shield unless it was their only option. And going back to a prev point where I think you said that rolling was also slow, this was also rarely used. so it doesn't really add to the faster/slower gameplay argument too much

Jabs and tilts are mixed. Some were faster, some were slower. I don't think there's any Frame 1 ground attacks in 64, but we do have that in Brawl with ZSS jab. So it's character dependent for those moves. The previous 2 points, though, give Brawl a faster ground game.

Grabs are mixed. In general, yes, grabs in 64 were faster. But you had a much smaller cast. There are plenty of grabs in Brawl that are as fast or faster than 64 grabs. There's also pivot grabs in Brawl.

Fair enough. Dont forget that 64 had no grab miss lag like melee and brawl does

DI is all fine and well but DI can only stop a combo if it can get you far enough away from your enemy before you're hit again. Saying that DI alone would be a sufficient "combo breaker" is naive, because Melee showed us that that is not the case. Even with all its wall techs, combos existed in Melee. It wasn't just DI'ing that made the combos in Melee non-broken, it was lower hitstun, which severely reduced the "combo window," thus making combos harder to pull off but still very much around. That's why I keep refuting it.

Because Melee already showed us what happens when you have DI and wall tech and hitstun. And it was balanced precisely because it reduced the hitstun from 64 ON TOP of adding everything else.

I generally agree. I agree that melee perfected the balance of hit stun to DI to knockback very successfully.

(bolded) So now you agree with me about DI? Because in post 1090, you stated that DI was pointless to the combo game. Yes, DI isnt the only factor to comboing but it still is a predominant factor. I would say comboing is 45% hit stun and DI and 5% lag canceling, 5% teching. Yes, teching is another combo breaker in the game but without good DI, its hard to get to a place where teching is possible.

You were saying that DI had nothing to do with 64's broken combo and it was solely hit stun's fault when that is not the case. Melee proved that when you have a significant DI system in relation to the knockback and stun time, combos are not as broken. I was saying that brawls DI is even more powerful than melee and if you gave 64 brawl's DI, then the combos would not have been broken.

I even proved that the hit stun was theoretically not overpowered by how fast CF was able to recover from pika's Uair or w/e move and that the only reason why it could have been too much was due to lack of a good DI system. This would have sent opponents out further than it did and the hitstun would be perfect.

I merely was suggesting that you can't blame the combo game solely on the hit stun when there were plenty other problems with 64, esp problems that related to the combo game.

So you changed your mind about giving 64 hit stun a try? Because in post 1070 you were downright against it which is one thing that sparked this debate. Ill quote that post:

We will not give Brawl the hitstun of 64. Those who want it: are you guys crazy? Did you play the game competitively? Do you know how broken that hitstun was?
The game was fun, yeah, and I still love it, but Melee was a far more competitive game for a reason. Combos in 64 were absurdly easy and crazy dangerous.
We are not taking Brawl down that route.

The only factor not addressed in Melee was high knockback. It's the only reason why 64 hitstun can even be considered for Brawl.

That is why I suggested it

Alright, I'm cool with that. But without faster fast-falling, single use airdodges will never fly. OoS characters will be far too vulnerable with that floatiness and only one chance for air defense.

Im not sure what I feel about faster fast falls (trying not to change the game too much) but I am willing to give it a try. I am also against single air dodges. I like brawls air dodge the way it is and I think it fits the type of gameplay we see in brawl.

These are both true, but I'm still not convinced that 64 hitstun time wasn't a large factor.

Was CF's recovering from pika in the vids not enough proof from you? But at least your willing to use 64 as a basis for stun time and scale down if need be.

 

[kupo15]

Directed at zxeon:

Wavedashing doesn't remove anything that is already there, and I know what you are thinking with Wavedashing around there is no reason to wing cancel or boost smash, but there is. If there isn't were those techniques even worth having around?

I dont care that wavedashing might overthrow wingdashing tbh. I see that wavedashing in this game is overpowered compared to the last game because we are manipulating the physics engine to do something its not suppose to do. And because we are doing this and the engine is different, wavedashing will never be the same as in melee. Wavedashing in melee was fine because it was an exploit in its own engine. I said many times over that if we found wavedashing in brawl the same way we found it in melee (within its own engine without codes) then I would be all for it. Why else do you think I discovered wingdashing?

Slow characters are still slow movement speed is only half the reason they are slow the other half is the speed of thier attacks. You wouldn't know because you don't play with it but fast characters are still way faster than slow ones its just that everyone has more mobility now it looks that way.

Your right, I dont play it so I wouldn't know the exact specifics but I have seen vids. Can you still stack WDes on top of each other? Can you do sliding spot dodges? Both are big problems.

Are you saying that you like how spammy Brawl is? Doesn't suprise me from someone who has Pit as an avatar and in thiers sig.

lol, funny you stereotype me like that. No, I don't like how brawl is spammy. There is a reason why I picked up MK and for Brawl+ ZZS. I am enjoying hand to hand combat more. Ppl say that wavedashing fixes this spammy fighting problem and I completely disagree. This is what powershielding is for.

I have this friend who plays Ganon. Idk if I still have the vid up but back in my earlier days when I was a spammy freak, I got punished by ganon for spamming. My friend was good at powershielding (not like its hard now) and he shut down my spam game. If my friend who plays ganon and get around my spammy pit without wavedashing and with ease, then no one should complain.

Spamming is a one sided tactic that is very easy to counter (depending on the player) and if you have trouble dealing with projectile spam after playing the game for 8 months, idk what to say. So ppl saying that wavedashing should be put in the game to deal with projectiles is not a good reason. Learn to powershield, that is what its there for.

There is no way that wavedashing magically fixes a character's approach game. Not all moves are good for approach and I don't think any one approach has a no counter.

How so? If a character naturally has trouble dealing with projectiles, that is an approach problem. Wavedashing does help this char to deal with projectiles better thus, it eliminates the weakness of having trouble approaching projectile characters.

Another example is short ranged vs long range. I have recently been having a hard time approaching Marths because he out ranges me and is just for some reason, difficult to approach. But wavedashing solves this problem because I can fake him out to attack to expose and opening by wavedashing backwards and wavedash back in to punish. I would not be able to punish without wavedashing so this eliminates my weakness for approaching Marth and other longer ranged characters.

The only way giving someone more options would make the match last longer is if they decide to use their options to stall. Meanwhile thier opponent can use those same options to mount an attack.

And this happening is inevitable. Someone will use this to stall and if they can react good enough to the attack, they can still avoid it by hugging the ledge or do any of the other stalling options that wavedashing provides due to better ground movement. Someone isn't going to just wavedash around stalling and not change the tactic when threatened.

Brawl isn't air based. That couldn't be farther frome the truth because there is not an air move in the game that cannot be beaten by the stand still and sheild grab ground based strategy.

I see where you come from, but I am referring to once they are up in the air. Everything is floatier and ppl have been saying its more air based. Also, if you compare it to melee, brawl is definitely more air based when melee was more ground based. Melee's game focused around CGing for the transition to the air. You dont really see melee's gameplay in brawl as much.

 

[zxeon]

If you don't want to hack the game you don't have to. If you are uncomfortable changing the game you can always play it with no hacks.

Stacking wavedashes on top each other is very dangerous you are open to attack while executing a wavedash and for a short time afterwards, and if you played for any amount of time with the wavedashing code you could see that spot dodging and shielding during a wavedash is not going to save you from everyting it really isn't all that useful and shortens your wavedash considerably.

I don't have the energy or will to teach you all the specifics of wavedashing in brawl I'll just cut myself off here. Until you play with it on you wont get it anyway.

 

[kupo15]

I will hack the game, but I have limits.

The way you convince me otherwise is by countering my points in the previous post instead of ignoring it and say "i just wont understand it." I have the exp of wavedashing in melee and wavedashing in brawl is more powerful than melee and provides more options than melee. I have also seen vids of ppl starting to push the limits of it and it does not look good. I think I provided some good points against you and would like to know what you think.

What it feels like to me is that the basis of your argument is not giving players the benefit of the doubt but rather, are you looking at the worst case scenario which doesn't make your point very strong. You say things like "stacking wdes is very dangerous and makes you vulnerable to attack"

I could care less if it makes you vulnerable to attack. MK's tornado makes you vulnerable to attack also. He is weak from the top, falco's laser destroys it and a lot of moves go through it or clank (which leads to a drill rush). But the fact is, good MK players know how to get around this and they know how to use it sooo effectively that it doesn't make them vulnerable. I have seen a MK tornado spam like you wouldn't believe against a falco whose projectile is considered the best counter to it.

The same is applied to stackable wavedashing. First off, idk how you are vulnerable since the moment you touch the ground, you have all of your options ready due to brawl's programming unlike melee where you actually had several frames of lag. So with brawls programming, you should be able to buffer shields and jabs from a wavedash to cover yourself.

You need to look at the best players who will master this technique, not the players that will do stupid things such as stacking wdes aimlessly to make them vulnerable or always using sliding spot dodge as an approach or whatever. The fact that luigi in melee could do it was a pain and the fact that now everyone can do it should sound off alarms. Just having the option of sliding spot dodges is not good

Those who master it will know how to wavedash effectively that the "weakness" of stacking will not even come to play just like the MK example. Looking ahead at what is possible when wavedashing in brawl is pushed to its potential, it looks too overpowered.

 

[NCRT]

I think that you, Kupo15, are trying to look to far into the future. You may be completely right, wavedashing in brawl could be far too overpowered. However we haven't had time to test it let alone push it to the full potentials. Just stating that everything should be given a fair chance.

 

[KAN]

Regionlock?

Hello. I need help.
I want to test out Brawl+ and I have a SD card and a SD reader. But I normally play an American Brawl Version via Datel's Freeloader on a European Wii.

I heard, there's also a Homebrew-Freeloader.
Can I use both the code for negating the regionlock and the Brawl+ codes?
And where can I find the freeloader hack?

Thanks in advance. Please help me. ^^

 

[MBlaze]

I love Wavedashing and all but I don't think it belongs in Brawl, we have a lot more options with it in Brawl and it's way easier to do than in Melee, it does seem a bit broken.

As for Melee air dodge I don't think that works either because of the strange movements in knockback, if you dodge anyway it will be too easy to be punished in Brawl.

As I've stated before, I'm all for only 1 Brawl airdodge.

 

[kupo15]

I think that you, kupo15, are trying to look to far into the future. You may be completely right, wavedashing in brawl could be far too overpowered. However we haven't had time to test it let alone push it to the full potentials. Just stating that everything should be given a fair chance.

Your right. I am looking into the future with all of the perfect codes here and that is what I base my opinions on. I have no power to force you to stop playing with it so you can play with it all you want. I want to express my views on it as to a reason why it shouldn't be a brawl+ standard and I want you guys to give it consideration as well. We shall see! ^_^

As I've stated before, I'm all for only 1 Brawl airdodge.

I think that would be sweet and maybe the ability to still do stuff afterwords

 

[StarshipGroove]

If you really don't like going into helpless state after a Melee airdodge, you could pick a character with a Zair (or throwable item). All of them are low tier and could use a boost to their userbase.

 

[Ryuker]

@ kupo:
Sorry I don't really understand what your issue with the airdodge is.

You say stacking is a problem. Why? Cause you'll be able to be invulnerable the entire fight? Please clarify this cause I don't get why you think it would be to powerfull.

You says the movement isn't meant for the engine but that should not be an issue. What should be an issue is how it's applied during the game. Right now it seems to offer a ton of options that I didn't have in melee and it's uses are a lot more different then in melee.


My positive points:
What I do see is that the game speeds up significantly cause I'm able to land on platforms immidiatly, move into attacks faster and cross the stage much faster. I find my self finding a lot of opportunity's that I couldn't use before.

It impacts every character very differently. Some are best wavedashed with with Z. You actually have a few different types of wavedash based on how far you jump before you airdodge or if you use Z or L (R). Each char uses that very differently from each other. Some are good at wavelanding while other always get their shield.

When in the air airdodging in different directions has different uses. Go down fast for example and you'll be able to land faster combined with fastfall. That speeds up the pace of the match.

The ability to wavedash out of shield is as huge as in melee. I can get away faster or punish faster while as the attacker I can trick the opponent in attacking after the shield by wavedashing back immidiatly. Those kind of fake outs are just essential to increase not only the pace but also the excitement and unpredictability of the game. In the end it just results in more control and more options to chose from.

It's too bad you still fly to long of most attacks that there's not something like techchasing as much in this game but using the wavedash it's a lot easier to atleast get close fast.

I absolutely hate the dashing mechanic of this game. But with the airdodging and the combination of triangle jumping and wavedashing it allows me to change position much more rapidly. I can walk away and suddenly slide in with a attack or I can walk away slide in to triangle dodge back. In the end I have more places I can land my attacks and more ways of getting there. This is good for applying pressure in the game and messing with your opponents head.
The more manouvaribily you have the more you have the option to avoid attacks or mix it up. The more predictable the game becomes the more boring it becomes to watch and play cause there's only so many ways. It's only in comboes that you have to make a row of good choices and execute them at the right time ( or guesses) to reach the end. If you don't then your opponent gets out. But the fight for those openings is much more interesting if it isn't as predictable were both players will be.

I think that's what made melee so exciting in the end. The constant zoning game in which both players choice positions to land in and play based on what they know what the pro's of those positions are as well as the con's. When a player gets a hit off you see the momentum shift to their side and you can't just chose your postion anymore but the player under attack needs to find a way out and reset it to another zoning game or turn the momentum around.

Looking at the current normal brawl I thought the progress it will make will mostly be in the off stage gimping game. It's varied has different possibilities but at the same time alows you to trap you opponent in very critical situations. But on the stage it lacks a lot of manouvaribilty compared to melee and that results in a pretty boring metagame on the stage. Just increasing the offensive won't be enough I think. You also need to have more controll over your position. Fake outs are key.

Comboes are interesting but it's hard to really combo into finishers like in melee due to the attacks of the game. Wavedashing actually helps to land these finishers. If I do a fair fair fair combo with marth for example in melee I would finish it with a tipper. In this game the sword is too short to do that but with wavedashing I'll be able to space my self so that I do land it. That's a simple example but it's should illustrate the point. Increasing the hit stun ain't gonna fix this cause they still fly to far. Instead of changing the knockback of the move the only thing we have to do is provide the player with the option of control to space him/herself to land those finishers.
If the rewards on the combo are low then their's less reason to try it and thus you get these one hit approaches. The finishers are the final goal.

As an example I'll use a match I had as diddy vs someone. Diddy lands a lot of comboes but hardly strings them into a finisher. The occasions that I did land some bairs into a dair the crowd gets excited. Thats cause that's exciting to watch. But it takes ages and if your opponent know's what their doing they have a lot more options to avoid it then to land in it. So I end up hitting my opponent over and over until I finally get them into a KO attacks. If instead of only comboing into a dair I would attack them then pressure them into roling but follow them with a wavedash with a f-smash for example I would have pulled of a string of attacks into a actuall KO ( if the percentage is right so on). How I score most KO's with diddy now is by mindgaming someone into landing in one of my KOing attacks or by simply spamming them when there close. I'm not saying it's impossible to string into finishers in the current brawl but it's definetly less frequent then in melee. With the exception of chars like metaknight which also results in to the char being deemed broken. And that's not very exciting to watch.

K well that's how I feel about it personally. It's what I enjoyed the most about the gameplay in Melee. I can't decide for everyone what to like but I hope I atleast explained why I like the game this way.

 

[kupo15]

@ Ryuker

Ill answer your points but not all at once. I hate writing long posts so Ill start by responding to things that are easy to refute or question. (never mind, I wrote a long one again..sigh...sorry about that)

You say stacking is a problem. Why? Cause you'll be able to be invulnerable the entire fight? Please clarify this cause I don't get why you think it would be to powerfull.

You says the movement isn't meant for the engine but that should not be an issue. What should be an issue is how it's applied during the game. Right now it seems to offer a ton of options that I didn't have in melee and it's uses are a lot more different then in melee.

No you wont "technically" be invulnerable the entire time. Your right, it offers way more options than it did in melee because you can do anything the frame after you start the wavedash. In melee, you had to wait a little bit to get out of the air dodge movement part, and the ground canceled the pause before you dropped.

Options are good, but sometimes, too much options have a negative effect. The fact that it gives you ton more options makes it a bad thing and therefore, more powerful. Because you can control your character more than before, you can make it very difficult to get hit and you can stall better. Where is the fun in trying to trap someone when a form of mobility offers so many options that allows you to escape traps you would not have been able to escape before?

One side effect of stacking is combining a wavedash with a spot dodge. This is really bad and it is a broken mechanic. If you are really good and use this correctly so that you dont put yourself in harms way during the vulnerable parts of it, it acts no differently than MK dimensional cape. It may not be a permanent invincible like it because there are several frames you are vulnerable inbetween the spot dodges, but if you do it right, you eliminate this weakness.

With all of this mobility, you can switch between wavedashing, wavedash+spot dodge, dashing, ledge stalling, triangle jumping and the many other possibilities seamlessly as a very effective camping tool and if you are really good, you can make it near impossible to get hit if you chose. There is nothing stopping you from being untouchable (not technically) with all of the mobility and your skill to be able to do it.

And what will happen when ppl can do this? This will be standard. You will need to be this good to compete. Think about Isai's skill copied to this form of movement. This is what I am predicting.

What I do see is that the game speeds up significantly cause I'm able to land on platforms immidiatly, move into attacks faster and cross the stage much faster. I find my self finding a lot of opportunity's that I couldn't use before.

yes you can do this. I know this helps with comboing, but this is another option to slow down the game by screwing around if you chose. Also, with all of this fooling around, its not like if you mess up, you will get gimped as in melee. So you basically have a much more powerful wavedash for more powerful and plentiful mobility options and a lesser punishment for messing up. This will make matches last longer.

When in the air airdodging in different directions has different uses. Go down fast for example and you'll be able to land faster combined with fastfall. That speeds up the pace of the match.

This really is no different than fastfalling with brawls air dodge system. The time difference between the two is negligible unless your referring to triangle jumping

The more predictable the game becomes the more boring it becomes to watch and play cause there's only so many ways. It's only in comboes that you have to make a row of good choices and execute them at the right time ( or guesses) to reach the end. If you don't then your opponent gets out. But the fight for those openings is much more interesting if it isn't as predictable were both players will be.

True, combos make matches interesting and the fight for the opening is also interesting. But in the same token, a fight for an opening that is not very rewarding is not exciting either. You have this drawn out foreplay for little reward. I think we can all agree melee was basically perfect at everything. Foreplay, punishment, reward, everything. I feel that with these enhanced mobility options you have over melee, the foreplay is too long or can get too long if both players don't give in. An example could be like soccer. How is soccer exciting when you spend such a long time before scoring? Its not exact but similar. (sorry soccer fans)

When a player gets a hit off you see the momentum shift to their side and you can't just chose your postion anymore but the player under attack needs to find a way out and reset it to another zoning game or turn the momentum around.

What kind of attack? If they are in hit stun, wavedashing doesn't help. This momentum shift happens in any fighting game without wavedashing like 64. Im confused.

Just increasing the offensive won't be enough I think.

But you think increasing defensive mobility will be better? I see no difference in offensive vs defense in a game where wavedashing is not there, and when both players can effectively wavedash. An example I can relate is racing. Whats the difference if two cars are going at 80 mph and two dirt ikes are going 40 mph in relation to each other? There is no difference. The difference is that the two cars are going faster in relation to the environment than the dirt bikes.
Wavedashing may make the matches feel faster, but they will take longer because I think the defensive mobility out weighs the offensive good. If you want more mobility and have the game feel faster, I think dash dancing is the way to go since this will have little if any cons compared to wavedashing.

You also need to have more controll over your position. Fake outs are key.

You can still fake out ppl without wavedashing. Its been happening for 8 months. You can fake ppl out with dash dancing also.

If I do a fair fair fair combo with marth for example in melee I would finish it with a tipper. In this game the sword is too short to do that but with wavedashing I'll be able to space my self so that I do land it......Increasing the hit stun ain't gonna fix this cause they still fly to far......If the rewards on the combo are low then their's less reason to try it and thus you get these one hit approaches. The finishers are the final goal

I think that hit stun should take care of this instead of wavedashing. I mean, since things are floaty, ppl stay in the air longer and if they DI up, wavedashing wont help you if they wont come down to the ground before hit stun is over.
The hitstun code right now is not near perfect. We will be wanting to make it longer and this will enable you to land that tipper you couldnt before.

Increasing the hit stun ain't gonna fix this cause they still fly to far.

Well, I think your trying to do the same stuff as in melee and it wont work because the physics are different and floaty. Your not going to be able to a Fair Fair Tipper at the same percent as melee. Esp with a better DI, whats stopping them from DIing up so that they get out of hitstun before they are in range of the tippered Fsmash?
I know this is just a simple example like you said, but it can be applied to all situations similar to this where you want to finish with a smash attack.

How I score most KO's with diddy now is by mindgaming someone into landing in one of my KOing attacks or by simply spamming them when there close. I'm not saying it's impossible to string into finishers in the current brawl but it's definetly less frequent then in melee.

I understand this, but I dont think your comparison is correct. I think you are comparing normal brawl to brawl+ when you should be comparing brawl+ w/o wavedashing and one with wavedashing. Because of hit stun, you dont have to mindgame your KO move and you certainly don't need wavedashing to do so either. Just look at 64, they had finishers without wavedashing and that was because of hitstun.

K well that's how I feel about it personally. It's what I enjoyed the most about the gameplay in Melee. I can't decide for everyone what to like but I hope I atleast explained why I like the game this way.

I can relate to everything you said because I have shared this same feeling as you in melee. But I think what Im getting at is that trying to bring back exactly what you felt in melee is an unrealistic goal. And I think that wavedashing while it can help with combos, does more harm than good. But the most important thing is the hitstun. If you have the right amount of hitstun, (we currently do not) then the combos speak for themselves.

I think that what makes a great game is a solid foundation and solid game mechanics. These would be the appropriate hit stun and l canceling in relation to DI and knockback. If you can make this game exciting and good combos with these two mechanics that are fundamental to the game (64 is the foundation to this game), then why would you bother adding something else to balance the game? Melee was balanced properly with these mechanics before the wavedash. Wavedashing basically added more mindgames, an easier ledge hogging (even though it was not necessarily needed for this), better ledge game, and some combos that were not there before such as Fox's shine combos.

Wavedash mindgames when you think about it, are not needed and I feel this is an overpowered form of mindgames in relation to the game.
Wavedashing doesn't help with the ledge game as much since gimping is harder to do and the ledge is just gay
Doesn't really add any specific ground breaking combos that I can think of atm that hit stun cant already handle
You cant slide off of platforms anymore


I feel that the negative things possible with this extra mobility outweigh the small positives that you stated. If you want more mobility and matches to feel faster, I think dash dancing is a more balanced mechanic than wavedashing. If you feel I am wrong, please point them out.

 

[kupo15]

I added some brawl+ vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbp63M9nCF4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTi_c22seRQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDuChNh5upA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LZZ-8NY7hY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1eWOfiFzhM

 

[zxeon]

Kupo just give it a chance. Geez, all of your talk isn't worth **** if it's not proven. It probably isn't worth **** either way.

 

[kupo15]

Your cool zxeon. And maybe your talk isnt worth **** either. This is a debate, at least be mature about it.

No one's points can be proven now anyway so why even debate? And how would you go about proving this anyway know it all?

If your going to be like this to every person who shares my views or who you don't agree with, then brawl+ is going to be a very biased game...

 

[zxeon]

Research, test it yourself, test it with your friends, test it at tournaments, test it with total strangers, test it anywhere that will have you.

If all you say is correct you should be able to single handedly be able to break the game in half. Then you can post it for the world to see and so other people can test for themselves.

 

[Team Giza]

It seems like the only reason people want to have wavedashing is to make it more like melee which shouldnt be what we are trying to do here. I think we should try to fix the issues with brawl but keep the game as similar as possible. But if we decide to add extra features I think they should be new ideas or at least increase the diversity of the game which is something the current wavedashing doesn't seem to do.

 

[kupo15]

It seems like the only reason people want to have wavedashing is to make it more like melee which shouldnt be what we are trying to do here. I think we should try to fix the issues with brawl but keep the game as similar as possible. But if we decide to add extra features I think they should be new ideas or at least increase the diversity of the game which is something the current wavedashing doesn't seem to do.

Yea, if we are going to fix brawl, I believe that we should get the hitstun code perfect in relation to the knockback and DI of this game just . That is how I melee did it and it was perfect so it should work for brawl. 64's hit stun was fine but didn't balance the DI. So theoretically, if we balance the hit stun to brawls DI and knockback, we will have a very solid foundation to build upon.

What will everyone base the deciding factor of the hit stun level to? Brawl+ with or without wavedashing? I think it should be without wavedashing.

Research, test it yourself, test it with your friends, test it at tournaments, test it with total strangers, test it anywhere that will have you.

If all you say is correct you should be able to single handedly be able to break the game in half. Then you can post it for the world to see and so other people can test for themselves.

So, I took your advise and boy am I glad I did. It just made me realize how much more broken wavedashing in brawl is than I ever thought before. wow....thank you...

 

[zxeon]

I'd like to see what is so broken about it. You didn't even elaborate about what was so broken. Post a video you have the ability to.

 

[kupo15]

Dont worry, I am planning on sometime within a week or so if I have time....

 

[defsithe]

i would rather have the melee air dodge system, being able to air dodge up is just great. just think of wavedash as an added bonus

 

[wiiztec]

So is a code for SSB speed fastfalling currently in the making or what?

 

[smasher?o.0]

it might but i think there on other codes 4 now

 

[cultofrubik]

Phantom Wing probably has a life.

 

[storm92]

Sigh at the endless debate on Wavedashing.
Basically, it's an optional thing. In my opinion, it adds a lot of depth to the game, including many more options for approaches, finishing, and mindgames.
But as with basically every code, it still needs fixing. We need the implementation of landing lag so we can't simply WD and then buffer a spot dodge. Because no matter what people say, that's a way too good of approach open to every character.
Anyways, we need that, in my opinion at least, to "fix" the WDing problems we have now.
On the arguments for having or not having the MAD in Brawl, I'm all for it. I personally think it gives everyone a plethora of new options and directional air dodge is more useful in a lot of situations (save off-stage, but that's a no brainer) than the BAD. Being able to choose the direction to AD not only helps for dodging itself, it helps with things such as recovering.
That's my two cents.

 

[kupo15]

Sigh at the endless debate on Wavedashing.
Basically, it's an optional thing. In my opinion, it adds a lot of depth to the game, including many more options for approaches, finishing, and mindgames.
But as with basically every code, it still needs fixing. We need the implementation of landing lag so we can't simply WD and then buffer a spot dodge. Because no matter what people say, that's a way too good of approach open to every character.
Anyways, we need that, in my opinion at least, to "fix" the WDing problems we have now.
On the arguments for having or not having the MAD in Brawl, I'm all for it. I personally think it gives everyone a plethora of new options and directional air dodge is more useful in a lot of situations (save off-stage, but that's a no brainer) than the BAD. Being able to choose the direction to AD not only helps for dodging itself, it helps with things such as recovering.
That's my two cents.

Its too powerful. It gives you too may options. It messes up character balance, and you might as well play the match with the bunny hood instead of using tech skill to wavedash.

Ill be making a vid to show this.

 

[Ryuker]

Please do. I'll try to record some matches myself this weekend if some of my friends have time to test it. If not then I'll atleast have it tested at a tournament this month ( as a side setup that is).

 

[zxeon]

You're off your rocker Kupo Wavedashing isn't a gamebreaker and never was. Unless you have actual proof please keep your crazy theories to yourself.

 

[Revven]

Its too powerful. It gives you too may options. It messes up character balance, and you might as well play the match with the bunny hood instead of using tech skill to wavedash.

Ill be making a vid to show this.

Uhh... no.

10disagrees.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Whos Recovery is Wavedashing helping?

Only people it's realisticly going to help is the tethers (not including LInk and Samus, or Tl), and really, it doesn't really help Zero suit Samus in recovery either.

In terms of just recovering, as in dodging attacks, Brawls current mechanics of Air dodging is by far easier.
It's so much better for "recovery" that people dislike it saying "well, now it's hard to punish people, because they can airdodge things".

Just saying, Brawl Airdodge is better than Melee's for recovery. From my perspective, unless someone can disprove that, which considering the minds here, could be possible.

...Wavedashing gives more options? ....To who exactly.
Brawl Wavedash looks mentally ******** (aesthetically).
Besides looking stupid, options for what....projectile spam?
Your Wavedashing into Projectile Spam!?
Or are you Directional Airdodging through them?
As that doesn't work perfectly....well it doesn't in brawl.... but then again Brawls can't force you to the ground Directionally so ...eh.


Brawl doesn't need Wavedashing. Melee benefited (omfg spelling T_T) from it, It is in my opinion that Brawl does not significantly, do so, in the way that makes this code worthwhile.
The Single air Dodge thing, Brawl somewhat benefits from, and somewhat doesnt, Wave dashing in itself .... >.> I don't feel it.
I could wavedash in melee so don't anal **** me for something like that 0_o.


Also isn't Brawls Hitstun mechanics what allows Tetherers to use their Tether to Always Grab the ledge if they DI down on the stage from a horizontal Kill.
Doesn't Hitstun stop this?
.....Im All for making Links recovery worse..... >.>



....Someone should try making more different versions of Airdodging....

Like say just a Single Airdodge, in where you can no longer attack until you touch the ground (but it's not directional)

Or an Air dodge that is just Super Armor, or well I dunno...different ideas >.>

Beat me across the head if you wish....whatever.


Brawl already does fine without Wavedashing, Brawl has some Slide like techniques already in it, which are fine, they are not wavedashing but they don't have to BE wavedashing, Keep the dash out if you were to make a standard or something >.>


.....who's working on the codes (I must've missed this information)?

 

[MBlaze]

I don't really care if its in or not, it just doesn't seem to fit into Brawl all that good..

 

[leafgreen386]

I don't like the current MAD code. I'd be either for revamping it so that you have landing lag from the airdodge (and making it so characters don't slide halfway across the world would be nice, too) or for some variation on the BAD (either the current limitless or a new single BAD), since I think that after we start incorporating everything else we may find that the BAD isn't quite so... bad.

 

[Makkun]

This thread has turned into tl;dr, ****storms, and reposts of reposts.

Is anybody actually discussing anything? Or are people just saying the same thing over and over again? I'm pretty sure nearly everyone other than Kupo and a few select others who aren't voicing their opinions want wavedashing in Brawl+. That's just how it is.

 

[Yeroc]

Wavedashing = ground movement control = more varied approach, defense, and mixup options. It's just a deeper game that way. I see very little difference between the changes wavedashing makes in Brawl to the changes it did in Melee (speaking as someone who was around to see the proliferation - this isn't my original account). All of you against wavedashing, even though you're comparing it to Melee, sound exactly like the people who were initially against its widespread use in that game. For serious, you do.