Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[Eten]

MK isn't dominant because of his scrappy little ~34% damage combos. Quite a few characters have just as good of options to get damage like that. MK is dominant because he has a bunch of obnoxiously fast aerials and moves and follows them up with gimping shuttle loops that are hard to avoid. It's got nothing to do with combos.

 

[rageagainst]

ok, combos are needed to punish your mistakes. Without hit stun and combos where is the reward in finding an opening? How is it a punishment when you can attack right back after one hit? It seems more of a slap on the wrist than anything to get hit. Why even be offensive when it doesn't amount to much? This is a reason why the game is so defensive and campy and boring at times. Having moves that flow together speeds up the game, makes a harsher punishment which makes the game better.

I agree that it takes a lot of skill as of now which is to predict every action, but I think its just a different kind of skill. Its more of a rock paper scissors game where you are basically using educated guesses as to what will happen next all the time. I think its absurd to have to work really hard for every attack. Something else you need to take into account is that combos are not taken for granted. Just because you got one hit in and there is hitstun doesn't mean there isn't skill in executing a combo. You still have to predict your opponents DI. The DI in this game is more powerful than before and if you don't predict it right, you lose your chance for the combo you want.

You also have to take into account the type of move that you want to achieve the desired effect. Its like pool where one move may be the easiest option to combo but, there is this other move that is harder but will set up the next move better. So figuring out what moves to set up takes a lot of skill also. The stale move system is also very powerful and I think that alters the stun time but Im not sure. If that is the case, then you just added 10x the amount of possibilities to the combo game which means 10x more likely to lose the combo also.

The combos wont require a lot of coding and individual balancing. The game already has a hit stun combo system in place, but they allowed you to attack and dodge during hitstun which is why combos dont exist.

Combos is the main thing that balances characters. Why do you think MK is so dominant? It is because he is the one who can really combo. He is in a place all by himself because he can combo. By adding hit stun and having a combo system, other chars can too combo which means MK isnt unique and therefore is not as dominant as he is now. This means that all characters are at the same level with comboing which makes the roster more balanced.

I am for l canceling because s canceling calls for broken aerial spam. But many of us do agree that the current l canceling needs to be fixed. We even think that it should be auto l canceling to get rid of the tech barrier but we need the half lag to keep characters in check.

And may I include that the hitstun will NOT make DDD and Falco's CG better.

I have a question of my own. Why you think its ok for brawl to not have combos but every other fighter can including the first two games?

i have been refuted

and if you read the start of my post you would see that I was against combos in other games as well since i said I was glad "they trimmed combos in brawl," but it seems my opinions were misguided since you've made the case that hitstun will make for a more competitive game. And lol, if hitstun is in made better sure other chars can combo but wouldn't MK's combos go from "super broken" to "omfg so freaking broken"? I guess that could be fixed when Brawl + enters the character balancing stage. I'm now for more hitstun unless it gives characters infinite combos (there was a fighter, i think, that all the chars hade atleast 1 infinite... i think it was a marvel vs. capcom, needless to say, there wasn't too large of a competitive scene.

and about l cancling, yeah s cancling is broken on some chars, but for balancing's sake, i would hope that some chars (like Bowser) are given s-canceling while others aren't.

 

[Kyd]

Im for combos and MK really doesnt have any part of them.... but the ability to combo would allow people to follow up attacks without being punished by the no hitstun- fair or tornado.

Hitstun would make MK's defensive aspect die a bit, because he wont be able to instantly fight back once hit.

Increased hitstun is still needed, I can combo a little better with the current code but it's still difficult to follow up most attacks. I honestly don't disagree with the idea of SSB64 hitstun, but if not obtainable we should at least be able to deal Melee quality combos.

anywho.... I'm happy that the new gravity code doesnt completely slaughter Sonic's UpB, and with the air dodge mechanic Sonic gets yet another slight jump..... but low priority and crappy spacing still kicks his ***.....

 

[eet]

so wheres dash dancing? Its already in brawl, but a lot slower of a rate. Seems like it wouldnt be too hard to isolate the variable controlling the lag and create a melee-esque dash dance for most characters.

Ad yeah, prolly a bit more lag for stun on hitstun 1.3.

 

[kupo15]

MK isn't dominant because of his scrappy little ~34% damage combos. Quite a few characters have just as good of options to get damage like that. MK is dominant because he has a bunch of obnoxiously fast aerials and moves and follows them up with gimping shuttle loops that are hard to avoid. It's got nothing to do with combos.

Yea its not the only thing of course, but how does he set up his gimping game? He mainly does a combo that leads to a finisher that puts them in a position to get gimped. Or he hits them, waits because he has the answer to all situations, hits, waits, hits...this is juggling, a form of comboing. Brawl's combo system is juggling and mk excels at that yes due to his fast attacks but having fast moves doesnt cover up the fact that that is what helps his combo game. Its a different form of comboing compared to the prev games.

Some basic combos (inescapable at the right situation)
Uair>uair>uair>uair>uair>nado>death
Uair>uair>Nair>gimp mode
M2k combo that you replace the ftilt with a dtilt (trip)>running grab (slide to the edge of the stage)>dthrow>gimp mode
shuttle loop>shuttle loop

i have been refuted

and if you read the start of my post you would see that I was against combos in other games as well since i said I was glad "they trimmed combos in brawl," but it seems my opinions were misguided since you've made the case that hitstun will make for a more competitive game. And lol, if hitstun is in made better sure other chars can combo but wouldn't MK's combos go from "super broken" to "omfg so freaking broken"? I guess that could be fixed when Brawl + enters the character balancing stage. I'm now for more hitstun unless it gives characters infinite combos (there was a fighter, i think, that all the chars hade atleast 1 infinite... i think it was a marvel vs. capcom, needless to say, there wasn't too large of a competitive scene.

and about l cancling, yeah s cancling is broken on some chars, but for balancing's sake, i would hope that some chars (like Bowser) are given s-canceling while others aren't.

I still disagree about s canceling because looking down the road with the perfect hit stun, i feel that l cancel is enough.

lol, no MK will not be uber broken with hitstun. His air speed is bad that he wont be able to keep up. He wont change that much is what I noticed from using him. What you see is what you will see with hit stun except he wont be as pressed for time.

but low priority and crappy spacing still kicks his ***.....

grinding will solve this problem lol...jk

 

[Eten]

Meh, MK just gets you up in the air/off the stage to shuttle loop you. Doesn't matter how he does it, if you go up, he's fast enough to get under you and line it up no matter what. He doesn't even really create momentum, he just has a lot of moves that can be abused.

I'm glad you brought up aerial mobility though. MK really won't benefit from more hitstun than other characters. Melee airdodging, on the other hand...

 

[kupo15]

Meh, MK just gets you up in the air/off the stage to shuttle loop you. Doesn't matter how he does it, if you go up, he's fast enough to get under you and line it up no matter what. He doesn't even really create momentum, he just has a lot of moves that can be abused.

I'm glad you brought up aerial mobility though. MK really won't benefit from more hitstun than other characters. Melee airdodging, on the other hand...

I hear that melee air dodging also doesn't help too much but i wouldn't know since i dont use it. Either way, mk gets the short end of the stick for these hacks since he already posses them without it.

 

[MBlaze]

I hear that melee air dodging also doesn't help too much but i wouldn't know since i dont use it. Either way, mk gets the short end of the stick for these hacks since he already posses them without it.

Yeahh, Melee airdodge doesn't suit the game, have only 1 Brawl air dodge and now we're talking.

 

[Kyd]

I'm really undecided on the air dodge deal. Melee's air dodge is good to force the offensive since u cant just keep defending in the air and allows WD, but it also allows chars like Zelda to have the most horrible spams in the game because u cant keep dodging her fire.

 

[SGX]

I like the melee air dodge a lot.

The latest code which allows you to DI after an air dodge prevents you from getting screwed too hard by zelda.

After trying them both out, I prefer the L-cancel to the S-cancel. S-cancel is just wayyy too ridiculous.

I really would prefer an auto L-cancel, because like people have been saying, probably about a 1/3rd of the cast doesn't even need to L-cancel, and the timing just varies so much from character to character. I don't think this would be overpowered or take the skill of the game away in the least bit. If anything it would make it flow better.

 

[kupo15]

Yeahh, Melee airdodge doesn't suit the game, have only 1 Brawl air dodge and now we're talking.

yea and maybe, im fine with the current air dodge system but that idea is in the back of my mind

I'm really undecided on the air dodge deal. Melee's air dodge is good to force the offensive since u cant just keep defending in the air and allows WD, but it also allows chars like Zelda to have the most horrible spams in the game because u cant keep dodging her fire.

yea, I dont want the approach and spacing game to be wavedash focused which it is with wavedashing. Some chars have problems approaching certain chars that was purposely put in as a weakness to balance out their char but wavedashing allows them to overcome this weakness which I dont feel is right. I find it way more fun, exciting, and skillful to space and approach within your character's limitations.

 

[CT Chia]

but melee airdodge is so gooood! lol. i still think it fits perfectly in brawl+

 

[5ive]

but melee airdodge is so gooood! lol. i still think it fits perfectly in brawl+

100% Agreed.

 

[kupo15]

but melee airdodge is so gooood! lol. i still think it fits perfectly in brawl+

i know lol, but i think its too good! I almost feel like its so good that it actually takes away options because everything else is inferior to it, but I havent given that idea much thought though.
You should talk to G, he has some good reason why he is against it also. It would be great to hear things from his perspective since he is a game programmer and someone who knows how to balance things from the programming side of things. I will be brawl+ing with him today and we will be talking about these hacks and stuff.

 

[Yeroc]

Heh. I just thought of a neat side-sidegame, if you will. Completely walled in stage, stamina mode, Melee airdodge without the special fall. You could fly around and fight people in the air, but it'd work because of stamina mode. Of course, you'd be invincible a lot of the time, so maybe that wouldn't work, but it could still be neat to try.

 

[Coroxive]

How exactly do you add these codes? All I really want is the "No Tripping" code, which would be nice to have.

I know it has to be only on the US version, which I have (and a US Wii to boot).

Do you have to have an Action Replay or something like that to input these codes, or can you manually put them in?

 

[zxeon]

but melee airdodge is so gooood! lol. i still think it fits perfectly in brawl+

The Melee airdodge is awsome for Brawl+. You can fake out opponents and still have options other than shooting them with a projectile after you use it. I won't play without it on.

 

[Revven]

How exactly do you add these codes? All I really want is the "No Tripping" code, which would be nice to have.

I know it has to be only on the US version, which I have (and a US Wii to boot).

Do you have to have an Action Replay or something like that to input these codes, or can you manually put them in?

Search for Makkun's guide plz, it has all your answers.

Hey guys, I just figured I'd post this here because I use S-Canceling like once in the video and it's a pretty **** awesome combo I got off with it too.

Redonkulous 2 - Green Machine

Either watch the whole thing or skip to the clip with DK VS. Peach VS. Ness on Corneria.

 

[PanzerOceania]

Heh. I just thought of a neat side-sidegame, if you will. Completely walled in stage, stamina mode, Melee airdodge without the special fall. You could fly around and fight people in the air, but it'd work because of stamina mode. Of course, you'd be invincible a lot of the time, so maybe that wouldn't work, but it could still be neat to try.

how about stock mode and just have one small hole at the top of the arena so people would be bouncing off the walls at high damage.

also I too fully support the melee airdodge as on of the key parts of the game.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

the melee air dodge is certainly one of the reasons brawl+ is so epic

 

[storm92]

This is what I see can be adjusted and bettered, feel free to chime in, offer suggestions, tell me I'm wrong?

- More hitstun in 1.3, preferably around SSB64 status so we can tone down if needed
- True Dashdancing as was in Melee
- We need landing lag on WD's, so there will be no stacking and no WaveDodges, as it gives every character a broken method of approaching
- Auto L-Cancel, as there's basically no reason in having manual L-cancel because it doesn't require basically any skill
- Have gravity effect only fall speed but not recoveries or jumps, therefore we could speed up the game and in doing so combo system

Now this is derived mainly from Melee and are definitely optional, I just wanted to hear what others thought:

- Demagnetizing edges, so we can edgeguard better?

 

[SGX]

This is what I see can be adjusted and bettered, feel free to chime in, offer suggestions, tell me I'm wrong?

- More hitstun in 1.3, preferably around SSB64 status so we can tone down if needed
- True Dashdancing as was in Melee
- We need landing lag on WD's, so there will be no stacking and no WaveDodges, as it gives every character a broken method of approaching
- Auto L-Cancel, as there's basically no reason in having manual L-cancel because it doesn't require basically any skill
- Have gravity effect only fall speed but not recoveries or jumps, therefore we could speed up the game and in doing so combo system

Now this is derived mainly from Melee and are definitely optional, I just wanted to hear what others thought:

- Demagnetizing edges, so we can edgeguard better?

I can agree with most of this.

I desperately want dash dancing more than anything. SSB64 hitstun may be a bit too much, but a little more would be helpful.

Current gravity mods make some characters jumps and recoveries gimped. It seems like it would take a lot of coding to do that though.

Auto L-cancel would make a lot more sense for Brawl.

If we could make the snap range just a little smaller for edges, that would be great. Doesn't have to be as small as melee.

 

[cultofrubik]

I've been thinking about this one for a long time, and I've come to a conclusion.

Throws need more hitstun than anything else in the game. If we make it too high for just moves, Fox is going to be really flipping annoying.

Increased gravity for falling rather than jumping.

Dashdancing like Melee, because it's too good.

No tripping be a must.

But I'm trying to figure out the necessity for MAD. I think it's amazing, but it's just far too glitchy at the moment. Like throwing items out of an airdodge and then b-uping.

Actually on second thought, hitstun is really secondary to increased fall gravity. As much as Smash 64 was awesome, we do not need a Brawl 64. That being said, I love combos, but i just don't like the idea of Dair infinites and the like. So just watch the hitstun. =)

If we increase the general hitstun, then we would need to do something about shields.


REGARDLESS, I brought Brawl+ to a melee tournament today, and there appears to be a ton of excitement about it. w00t w00t!

Keep it up!

 

[kupo15]

I have been contacting a hacker (not PW) about our hit stun problem so hopefully we will be moving along. I do want more hitstun but I will be fine without it for the next update and here is why.

1.2 has two bugs and the mechanic is different than 1.2. If I had a choice, Id use 1.1 over 1.2 because the stun mechanic is closer than 1.2. 1.2 seems like it doesnt take into effect damage and it seems more even than varied compared to 1.1. This is why I use 1.1 for the two combo vids I made.

Both have no hit stun on twirl hit stun and after bouncing off of a wall but 1.1 has one major glitch over 1.2 that prevents me from using it...gimp mode.

So if he could rework 1.1 to fix the two bugs and gimp mode, that would be a huge upgrade, then the next one would be more hitstun.

Actually on second thought, hitstun is really secondary to increased fall gravity. As much as Smash 64 was awesome, we do not need a Brawl 64. That being said, I love combos, but i just don't like the idea of Dair infinites and the like. So just watch the hitstun. =)

No need to fear. Fox's dair does not get better with hit stun since it only flinches you and not put you in the tumble

 

[MBlaze]

Melee airdodge and auto l cancel would break this game....,

 

[kupo15]

Melee airdodge and auto l cancel would break this game....,

Thats why melee air dodge has to be the one to go...

 

[MBlaze]

Thats why melee air dodge has to be the one to go...

I went to a tourney today and told about this, they like it but agree with my post and are against those.

 

[kupo15]

they like melee air dodging but agree that it must go? Sorry you worded your sentence weird lol

 

[MBlaze]

they like melee air dodging but agree that it must go? Sorry you worded your sentence weird lol

Liked Brawl+ but didn't want those features.

 

[Alopex]

I need to chime in here, because a lot of people are getting the wrong idea about hitstun.


1) NO

We will not give Brawl the hitstun of 64. Those who want it: are you guys crazy? Did you play the game competitively? Do you know how broken that hitstun was?
The game was fun, yeah, and I still love it, but Melee was a far more competitive game for a reason. Combos in 64 were absurdly easy and crazy dangerous.
We are not taking Brawl down that route.


2) NO

Hitstun does not break the game or allow infinites.
Melee had hitstun. It worked perfectly. Combos were real and real hard to pull off and really rewarding because of it, and they weren't death sentences like the SSB64 combos.
The only infinite in Melee was the Wobble. Hitstun didn't cause infinites in Melee because Melee had an appropriate amount of hitstun and vastly superior DI.
THAT'S where we want to take Brawl.

We're already half-way there with Brawl's great DI system. In fact, DI is the one thing that Brawl perfected in the Smash series.


3) YES

Combos will make the game more aggressive. This is soooooooooo needed... Brawl's "Defensive Advantage" is BS...


4) I DON'T THINK that defensiveness will be fixed until we have some shield-stun again.


5) SO, the two stuns: hitstun and shield-stun are both needed additions if we want to make Smash Bros an aggressive game again. Support it people, a game focused on defense is a boring game to play AND watch. Let's fix it.

------------------------------
FURTHER POINTS


6) SINGLE-USE AIRDODGE needs more testing. Whether it's MAD or single-use BAD (lolzers at the acronyms...). I still think that Brawl's projectiles and ease of recovery (thus strong edge-guarding), combined with its floatiness, make multiple AD's a necessity.
Extreme floatiness needs to give you ways to keep yourself safe in the air. One airdodge WON'T cut it.

And since we haven't really perfected an anti-floatiness standard yet, I don't think we can choose an AD system yet.



7) THE S-CANCEL PROBLEM

Look, the problem with S-cancel isn't the aerial spamming. It really isn't. That's going to happen with auto-L or manual L too.

The problem is that landing laglessly with an immediate shield gives you tons of options upon landing and completely saves you from ANY mistake you made in the air. It prevents punishment hardcore and just isn't fun. If you made a mistake, either because you timed the aerial wrong or because you missed the L-cancel timing, then your opponent deserves the chance to punish you.

An immediate lagless shield landing means you can immediately spot dodge, immediately roll, or immediately grab. This negates any mistake you've done and makes the game ridiculously thoughtless.

Fear of punishment is what fuels the need for strategy. S-cancel kills that fear.

With either form of L-cancel, every move still has lag - meaning no immediate shield. The lag may be small in certain moves, but any frame of lag (even just 2) prevents immediate shielding and thus enables appropriate punishing.

L-cancel reduces lag to a limit (there's never 0 lag with L-cancel). S-cancel is 0 lag shield on landing. 0 lag dodge, 0 lag roll, 0 lag grab... and you didn't even have to THINK about it! You just held the shield button the whole time and got all those benefits!

See the problem? Support L-canceling. Your heavy characters will STILL see MASSIVE improvement.


8) THE L-CANCEL DEAL

Face it people, manual L-canceling just isn't as important as it was in Melee.

Many characters have near lagless aerials as it is and auto land cancel already does what L-cancel did: it lets you negate lag through proper timing. Only you're timing the attack itself, not ANOTHER, ancillary button press.

Manual L-cancel in Brawl will just force some characters to inherently have to be more technical than others just to achieve similar results. In that sense, current Brawl is actually more fair than that - since timing the auto land cancel is something everyone needs to do.

Pressing the L-button in Brawl is a pain in the arse because it has to be completely pressed and the press distance is therefore huge. This makes L-canceling sooooo much harder in Brawl than it was in Melee and really ups the technical difficulty. Why should some people have to suffer through that just because of their character choice? At least in Melee, everyone HAD to L-cancel. It wasn't a choice.
Brawl's roster changes that.

If we can't force technicality on EVERYONE like we did in Melee, then we shouldn't force it on ANYONE.

So if you really want L-cancel, then auto is the best way.

Personally, I want either auto-L or no-L. I don't care. Just don't bring back manual-L. It doesn't suit Brawl.



9) A lot of people come here and comment on issues that have been discussed to DEATH on this thread.
Seriously, if people are going to be too lazy to use the "Search This Thread" function, then I'm going to be lazy too and just quote this every time someone brings up the same thing for the 50th time...

 

[Almas]

I pretty much agree with Alopex completely. I like wavedashing, but I'm not sure if it's appropriate. I certainly think it somewhat increases balance, but the amount of lines of code to do it in may mean that it will have to be shunted aside for other codes.

On a side note, wasn't waveshine also an infinite combo? And fox had a couple of infinites against a wall. I presume atleast a couple of other characters did. IJC Shines/Multishines were also an unstoppable combo if performed on a shielding opponent which could lead to death. Of course, performing 25 multishines in a row in the pressure of a match kind of borders on the impossible.

 

[Unseen_Killa]

Just a suggestion, perhaps you can put the infinite replay code in there.

 

[SGX]

Melee airdodge and auto l cancel would break this game....,

I disagree entirely. Please explain. This game is already broken in its original form.

if you're halving landing lag for all characters, you STILL have landing lag, so it's not like S-canceling. The heavies obviously get more benefit from this, but guess who's mostly on the bottom half of the tier list right now.

I have yet to find anything truly broken with the current melee airdodge code. Din's fire could really screw you over with the original code, since you couldn't DI afterward. Now that you can DI after an airdodge, it's not really possible for Zelda to pelt you with fire infinitely.

I also feel that it gives you some much needed mobility, and increases the pace of the game. On top of that, it's simply fun. Unless it's proven to have a serious detrimental effect on competitive gameplay, I think we should leave it in.

 

[MK26]

With the Melee airdodge code, can Snake, Sonic, and G&W airdodge after using their Up-B's?

 

[SGX]

I know Sonic can.

I haven't checked the other 2. If they could without the code then they still can. If not, then no. This code shouldn't change that.

 

[MBlaze]

I disagree entirely. Please explain. This game is already broken in its original form.

if you're halving landing lag for all characters, you STILL have landing lag, so it's not like S-canceling. The heavies obviously get more benefit from this, but guess who's mostly on the bottom half of the tier list right now.

I have yet to find anything truly broken with the current melee airdodge code. Din's fire could really screw you over with the original code, since you couldn't DI afterward. Now that you can DI after an airdodge, it's not really possible for Zelda to pelt you with fire infinitely.

I also feel that it gives you some much needed mobility, and increases the pace of the game. On top of that, it's simply fun. Unless it's proven to have a serious detrimental effect on competitive gameplay, I think we should leave it in.

That's why, Din fire and things like Meta's whorenado would screw them completely. Wavedash is too good and if auto l cancel were in, character's dairs such as Fox and Kirby would be broken as hell, Snake and DDD won't even need any effort for arieals. If Auto l cancel gets put in I don't even think I'll waste my time on Brawl+.

And how is it forcing techs on someone? When you go to a tourney it's your responsibility to know adv techs and such.

Like I said before, just because we can put something in doesn't mean we should.

 

[MuBa]

With the Melee airdodge code, can Snake, Sonic, and G&W airdodge after using their Up-B's?

Yes all 3 of them can.

 

[wazgood]

Guys, stop whining about WD and l/s cancel and let's talk about the real issue: scarjumping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtRxmZgsce0&feature=related
falcon will be top tier!

 

[Minato]

I have a few questions: Let me first say that I haven't tried these codes out yet. But I heard that L-cancelling's timing is different and harder. Why, exactly?

And is it possible to change the code so it makes L-cancelling's timing like 64 and Melee? Or is this the closest it's going to get?

 

[prOAPC]

i have a question about the "no tripping" code
i know it prevents the random trip, but what happen with those attacks that induce tripping, like some dtilts?