Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[Makkun]

i have a question about the "no tripping" code
i know it prevents the random trip, but what happen with those attacks that induce tripping, like some dtilts?

Those still induce tripping.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ideally, we should change the grab-release-into-the-air animation the same as it was in Melee. In other words, it would just release you into a regular jump. Brawl's unique release animations are full of problems.
Unfortunately, this is something that likely won't be able to fit into the final product due to the 256 lines of code limit and other things having more priority.

Oh

But what about ground releases (for Ness and Lucas) do they take up alot of space? I mean, Ness ground releases last for ALOT of frames (bad) isn't there a way to speed it up, or increase it's distance?

Well, either way I'll enjoy the final product. Thanks alot

 

[kupo15]

On a side note, wasn't waveshine also an infinite combo? And fox had a couple of infinites against a wall. I presume atleast a couple of other characters did. IJC Shines/Multishines were also an unstoppable combo if performed on a shielding opponent which could lead to death. Of course, performing 25 multishines in a row in the pressure of a match kind of borders on the impossible.

This was not because of hitstun, it was because of wavedashing. But regardless, you wont see this in brawl unless someone allows fox to cancel his shine.

That's why, Din fire and things like Meta's whorenado would screw them completely. Wavedash is too good and if auto l cancel were in, character's dairs such as Fox and Kirby would be broken as hell, Snake and DDD won't even need any effort for arieals. If Auto l cancel gets put in I don't even think I'll waste my time on Brawl+.

And how is it forcing techs on someone? When you go to a tourney it's your responsibility to know adv techs and such.

Like I said before, just because we can put something in doesn't mean we should.

(underlined) Then we should not include wavedashing or gravity hacks. Auto l canceling just makes sense because manual l canceling forces most characters to have to learn a timing to compete. It not fair or balanced that some char can lose a combo because they missed an l cancel but others never miss a combo because they dont need to l cancel. But at the very least, l cancel timing needs to be better.
(bolded) No it wont. Fox's Dair is already auto l canceled and Fox, yoshi, and kirby's dair's last hitbox is still a weak hit which means it wont change from what it is now with hitstun.

I need to chime in here, because a lot of people are getting the wrong idea about hitstun.


1) NO
We will not give Brawl the hitstun of 64. Those who want it: are you guys crazy? Did you play the game competitively? Do you know how broken that hitstun was?
The game was fun, yeah, and I still love it, but Melee was a far more competitive game for a reason. Combos in 64 were absurdly easy and crazy dangerous.
We are not taking Brawl down that route.

64's hitstun wasnt the reason it was broken, it was the poor DI system and lack of air dodge or defensive options period.

 

[Eten]

64's hitstun is why it was broken. Have you played 64 recently? Hitstun in that game is gigantic. Lack of airdodge didn't matter when you were simply comboed, not just juggled.

The only characters that wouldn't have something new to learn with the manual L-cancel are a select few who have automatic autocancel. IE. 4 out of 5 of Samus's aerials can autocancel by landing at any time during the aerial for 3/5 frames of generic landing lag. There are very, very few who get the benefit of having automatic autocancelling moves. There is also no reason why they shouldn't keep this advantage. Characters that are gaining combos w/ L-cancelling are gaining something they wouldn't have without brawl+. Plus, Combos aren't supposed to be easy, remember?

Every character that lands an aerial with landlag benefits from L-cancelling. Fast characters could do it in melee for shield pressure(IE. cutting like 8 frames of landlag on a nair down to 4, from tiny to tinier), and to be faster than just fast. Slow characters did it, like Bowser's SHFFLC fair, to turn him into a fast spacing machine.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

anyone know what is the most effective way to find other people to play against w/hacked brawl?

 

[MBlaze]

anyone know what is the most effective way to find other people to play against w/hacked brawl?

We should make a Brawl+ finder thread and get it pinned.

And I meant Dair into Smashes. I just don't like the idea because everything is already easy as can be, not L cancelling too. We should go with the suggestion of fixing the timing like the other guy said on the last page.

Also, is there a group at AiB for this? We'd get a hell of a lot more supporters.

 

[kupo15]

64's hitstun is why it was broken. Have you played 64 recently? Hitstun in that game is gigantic. Lack of airdodge didn't matter when you were simply comboed, not just juggled.

Yes I have and I actually have that game and the actual 64 system.
Was the hit stun in 64 too much? Maybe it was maybe it wasnt. I believe you need to look at the whole picture. Was 64 combos broken because of a lot of hit stun or is it because the DI wasnt very good? If you could keep 64's stun but replace the DI with brawls, I bet it the combos would not be as broken as they are now since you would be able to DI further away then what you see now. I bet if you included wall teching those combos wouldn't be like that and I bet if you replaced z canceling with l canceling then combos wouldn't be like that either.

My main point is that there are many aspects to comboing: lag canceling, hit stun and DI. You can't just take one out and say that one thing is the sole reason why the game was so broken when the DI was very ineffective, the lag canceling was overpowered, and there wasn't any aerial defense. There were times where they escaped the hit stun but still got comboed because of no air dodging. By saying that hit stun was broken, you are saying that the DI and lag canceling were good when in fact they also contributed to 64's broken combo game.

But I think that if 64 had brawls DI, you would see a much different 64 combo system. I think the horrible DI was a very big deal.

 

[Kanzaki]

Anybody want to have a Brawl+ match with me? I'll record the matches :D

 

[Kyd]

We need an official Brawl+ hack set so everyone picks up on the same codes...

i agree that we need hit stun at least close to 64, because with Brawls incredibly slow movement the melee hit stun would never allow true combos.

 

[Alopex]

No, Kupo, it was the hitstun.

The hitstun in 64 was so big that you were sent in a parabolic path after a C. Falcon Fthrow in complete hitstun helplessness.

That's a lot of hitstun. How much hitstun?

At low % (anything less than 50, IIRC), a good C. Falcon could Fthrow you and Falcon Punch you while you were in hitstun. This was common, and back then the Falcon Punch had much larger charge-up time.

That's how long the hitstun was. Airdodge solves nothing because you can't AD in histun.

As for DI, still pointless.
Remember that 64 was a MUCH slower game than Melee OR Brawl. With 64 hitstun and Brawl speed, DI would be but an insult. Brawl characters would catch the character regardless of where they DI to because 64 hitstun keeps you helpless for a loooong time.

i agree that we need hit stun at least close to 64, because with Brawls incredibly slow movement the melee hit stun would never allow true combos.

Brawl is WAY faster than 64. So Brawl+ needs its own hitstun level. More than Melee, less than 64.

The only characters that wouldn't have something new to learn with the manual L-cancel are a select few who have automatic autocancel. IE. 4 out of 5 of Samus's aerials can autocancel by landing at any time during the aerial for 3/5 frames of generic landing lag. There are very, very few who get the benefit of having automatic autocancelling moves. There is also no reason why they shouldn't keep this advantage. Characters that are gaining combos w/ L-cancelling are gaining something they wouldn't have without brawl+. Plus, Combos aren't supposed to be easy, remember?

Every character that lands an aerial with landlag benefits from L-cancelling. Fast characters could do it in melee for shield pressure(IE. cutting like 8 frames of landlag on a nair down to 4, from tiny to tinier), and to be faster than just fast. Slow characters did it, like Bowser's SHFFLC fair, to turn him into a fast spacing machine.

I agree with you that L-canceling is good.

My problem is that manual L-canceling timing is ridiculous in Brawl. Both in terms of the input window and the fact that the L button has to depressed the whole way.

L-canceling in Melee was easy. If we could make it that easy in Brawl, I'd be all for it.
But it's ridiculously hard in Brawl and I don't think THAT level of technicality is good for the competitive community. It makes for a VERY intimidating game.

 

[Sai Winner of Games]

Well, I have to say I am impressed with how everything is coming along. I have been out of touch with smash since my free time became close to nothing, and I am glad to see that Brawl making progress also. I will probably be a few months before I try this, but I am expecting it to be good.

 

[MBlaze]

We should make a Brawl+ finder thread and get it pinned.

And I meant Dair into Smashes. I just don't like the idea because everything is already easy as can be, not L cancelling too. We should go with the suggestion of fixing the timing like the other guy said on the last page.

Also, is there a group at AiB for this? We'd get a hell of a lot more supporters.

Also to add to this, if we make the Brawl+ finder thread then we should put the file of codes from the homebrew tutorial thead from the sd package. Pizza cake?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

We should make a Brawl+ finder thread and get it pinned.

And I meant Dair into Smashes. I just don't like the idea because everything is already easy as can be, not L cancelling too. We should go with the suggestion of fixing the timing like the other guy said on the last page.

Also, is there a group at AiB for this? We'd get a hell of a lot more supporters.

i attempted to make a friend finder thread for brawl+ and it was closed. i suppose because it was a deviation from the preferred idiocy that runs rampant in this forum.

 

[Eten]

Yes, I'm not going to be campaigning all that hard against easier to time L-cancel/auto L-cancel when it comes down to it. It's nice to have that player action check when you include a lag cancel, but in general I'm just for L-cancel in whatever form it works best in.

 

[MBlaze]

i attempted to make a friend finder thread for brawl+ and it was closed. i suppose because it was a deviation from the preferred idiocy that runs rampant in this forum.

Lol nice.

 

[Kanzaki]

I got my first matches using Brawl+ :D

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204359



Me and my opponent first made sure we used the same codes by him sending me his ocarina file, and then we were off ^^

 

[kupo15]

No, Kupo, it was the hitstun.

The hitstun in 64 was so big that you were sent in a parabolic path after a C. Falcon Fthrow in complete hitstun helplessness.

That's a lot of hitstun. How much hitstun?

At low % (anything less than 50, IIRC), a good C. Falcon could Fthrow you and Falcon Punch you while you were in hitstun. This was common, and back then the Falcon Punch had much larger charge-up time.

Yea I know 64 had a lot of hit stun and I bet if they had brawls DI, CF wouldnt be able to Falcon punch after a throw.

64, throws were very strong and sent opponents away pretty far

Brawl (going from memory), the throws don't throw you quite as far as 64 but pretty close (only talking about forw/back throws)

Right now, brawl's hit stun is about the same as melee and if you put brawl's hit stun in 64 you would not be able to follow up with an attack because they will recover before you get there since they are sent far away. 64 theoretically needs the stun time it has to follow up with a move but since the DI was so weak, it didn't really need that much.

Brawl has an additional problem that 64 did not have and that is DI. The DI in brawl is so powerful that you can send foes further away then the move is suppose to or at an angle that your slow air speed cant follow up with. So not only will you not be able to follow up after a throw because of little stun, you definitely will not be able to follow up with proper DI.

We should design the hitstun at the highest level of play so that if you DI properly, it makes comboing really hard for the player but not impossible like it is now.

As for DI, still pointless.

Lets look at MK's Dthrow:

MK's down throw will shoot you away at about a 45 deg angle from MK without DI. MK can follow up with ANY move which means you will be guaranteed another hit, a combo. But if you DI down/away, you will be shot away basically parallel with the floor and you will be further away from MK allowing you to tech, thus it is impossible for MK to follow up at all

Maybe you should play a match of brawl+ (l cancel, no tripping and hit stun 1.2) without players DIing hits until the hit stun wears off and compare that to a match where you DI. Which game gives you the most combos? If you can combo or barely combo in brawl+ without DI, then forget comboing in brawl+ with DI.

If you can combo ridiculously in brawl+ without DI, are you going to blame brawl's combos on the hitstun or lack of DI? This is essentially what 64's problem was like.

Dont tell me that DI isn't an important aspect of comboing when it clearly is...

That's how long the hitstun was. Airdodge solves nothing because you can't AD in histun.

Of course, but there are times where you still get comboed after the hitstun wears off because you cant defend yourself in the air

Remember that 64 was a MUCH slower game than Melee OR Brawl. With 64 hitstun and Brawl speed, DI would be but an insult. Brawl characters would catch the character regardless of where they DI to because 64 hitstun keeps you helpless for a loooong time.

Brawl is WAY faster than 64. So Brawl+ needs its own hitstun level. More than Melee, less than 64.

Huh? Im sorry but 64 is the FASTEST game out of the 3. If 64 was so slow, then how come 64 had 5 stock tourney matches, melee had 4 stock, and brawl has 3 stock? How come you can go through 5 stocks in 64 in the same time or faster than 4 stocks in melee? How come the match times are generally the same time or faster in 64 than melee?

I cant possible see how you think 64 is the slowest out of all three games when the games actually get slower every time...

 

[MuBa]

I have to agree with kupo15 on smash 64 being the fastest out of the 3. Seriously Alopex, have you even seen how fast the characters in that game execute their attacks? It's all thanks to their low DI and fast attacks that allows them to KO quicker, hence making the game faster.

Brawl is by far the SLOWEST of the 3 Smash Bros. game.

We just need more hitstun. Period.

 

[CT Chia]

Melee is definitely the fastest with the gravity of the game, and additional techquies for moving around the stage better.
I like how the "answer" to this Brawl+ is still just more hitstun, when IMO it's not more hitstun, but what's really needed is a code made for CORRECT hitstun. let's face it, there's plenty of problems with the code we have now.

 

[MuBa]

Well you know what we mean Chibo. We also want a perfect non-buggy hitstun code that won't break the game.

 

[kupo15]

Yea chibo, of course we want perfect hit stun. Maybe it is 64 length stun or maybe shorter but we won't know unless we try. In addition to other things, we need more stun for a fact.

About melee being the fastest, I think the gameplay seems faster and its just more complicated but the game is slower than 64 because the matches are longer and there are less stocks. Its the combos that makes the matches go by quicker.

64-ridiculous combos (5 stock)
Melee- Good combos but not as good as 64 but more balanced combos (4 stock)
Brawl- combos, what? (3 stock)

If you think melee is faster than 64, than can you explain to me how 64 is slow given the fact that 64 match times are the same if not faster than melee with an additional stock?

I just want to bring this vid out. This is faster than any melee match Ive seen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGZcsehscTY&feature=related
How is this slower than melee?

 

[Eten]

Characters move faster in Brawl/Melee than they do in 64. 5-stock in 64 is because combos are so insane that matches are short. Your video is perfect evidence of that.

Melee is EASILY faster than 64 in terms of the speed of action. Two different speed elements here. That's why 64 level broken hitstun in Brawl would be bad, DI or not.

 

[kupo15]

Characters move faster in Brawl/Melee than they do in 64. 5-stock in 64 is because combos are so insane that matches are short. Your video is perfect evidence of that.

Melee is EASILY faster than 64 in terms of the speed of action. Two different speed elements here. That's why 64 level broken hitstun in Brawl would be bad, DI or not.

Right, I agree that melee's game play feels faster but in actuality, the game play is not faster as you agree. But ppl are saying referring that the game speeds of 64 are slower which is undoubtedly not the case as my video proves.

The underlined proves my point that combos makes the game faster. Now were the combos insane because of the hitstun time or because of weak DI? The only thing I see "overpowered" about the hitstun are the throws and IMO, it was needed for you to follow up with an attack due to how far throws throw you. If you notice in the first stock of the vid, CF was able to falcon kick suicide pretty fast after pika's finisher. The hitstun there doesn't seem to be overpowered.

And if you look at 0:46 in the vid, CF recovers almost instantly after pikas' Uair. After looking at these examples, it baffles me how ppl think 64's hitstun was overpowered when in fact it appears to be balance but DI is the thing that is out of balance.

Melee is definitely the fastest with the gravity of the game, and additional techquies for moving around the stage better.

Your probably referring to wavedashing. I love wavedashing and all but I am going to be honest and really blunt. If I were to summarize the purpose of what wavedashing does in melee to its simplest form, this is what I would say:

1. Helped to create combos
2. Slowed the game down

Now, wavedashing's purpose to create more combos improved the speed of the matches a little bit because it created combos, which is good. Another thing that wavedashing did in melee to improve the speed of play was edge guarding. Ganon used it to wavedash>uair for example and everyone used it for quick edgehog.

But the problem with brawl is that you can recover much better than before so the wavedash edge guard tricks that were very effective in melee dont transfer over to brawl which makes this form of speeding up the game null.

However it has a side effect of slowing the game down more which out weighs the good it did by speeding up the game. I say this because if you truly look at what wavedashing did (non combo related), it actually allowed the players to bull**** around more instead of actually fight.

I like how the "answer" to this Brawl+ is still just more hitstun, when IMO it's not more hitstun, but what's really needed is a code made for CORRECT hitstun. let's face it, there's plenty of problems with the code we have now.

On the contrary, I like how everyone else is saying that the "answer" is wavedashing....

And I never said there were no problems with the hit stun code because there are. And if you have been looking around to what I post about it and even in my thread you will see that I acknowledge the hit stun code is flawed and not perfect.

 

[zxeon]

Dins fire isn't that much of a problem with the SSBM airdodge. You should really try it out before you knock it Kupo.

 

[kupo15]

Dins fire isn't that much of a problem with the SSBM airdodge. You should really try it out before you knock it Kupo.

Wow, I said that how many weeks ago? What does that have anything to do with what was just said? Lets not change the subject until this one is done shall we?

 

[zxeon]

You really don't get what wavedashing is all about kupo. Maybe you should stop talking about Melee in general. Everything about Melee's gameplay was faster and gave you more freedom than brawl, from being able to change your direction during your initial dash animation to being able to jump lower and move faster through the air, being able to fast fall sooner, wavelanding and wavedashing in general all helped to speed up a game that started at a pace atleast three times faster than brawl.

 

[kupo15]

haha, yea, like I don't know what this stuff does. Cause I do and I wavedash and I know how to apply it. I never said it didn't give you more freedom of movement so stop putting words in my mouth. And as we said before, there are two types of "speed" and everyone is saying that melee is faster than 64 which I interpret as matches are faster in melee and I pretty much disproved that. The matches in 64 were faster than melee as proved by the stocks being higher and the match times being either the same or faster due to 0-death combos. I think my vid also proves that.

First stock being taken in 7 secs
2nd stock taken in 9 secs
third stock taken in 7 secs
4th stock in 10 secs (should have been 5 secs)
5th stock in 29 secs

among the top pros. Im pretty sure that is a record unheard of in melee against the pros and where was wavedashing to help with the speed of things? This is not the only vid that is proof that the combos made 64 faster matches


Melee is a more complicated version of 64 and when you add features and options, the matches will get longer because of more options. I mean if you look at a different game, Mario Party, the games are much longer because of all the **** they added to the boards...

Also, ppl are being ignorant that the hit stun is overpowered when I clearly gave examples that show that it is not and DI is the probable cause as to why the combos were insane.

Why ppl overlook that and give lame excuses as to why Im wrong is beyond me.

 

[StarshipGroove]

That means N64 matches are shorter, not faster.

 

[kupo15]

when normal 64 matches are about the same or faster than melee matches with an additional stock, doesn't that mean its faster?

im pretty sure shorter= faster am i right?

 

[zxeon]

I never said that you said that brawl gives you more freedom. I just said it . Pay closer attention. It's not all about you.

 

[kupo15]

well forgive me if I assume your referring to me when your saying i down right wrong and Im the only person there is too argue against.

 

[zxeon]

when normal 64 matches are about the same or faster than melee matches with an additional stock, doesn't that mean its faster?

im pretty sure shorter= faster am i right?

Wrong, I don't even know where to start with this one.

 

[kupo15]

well then we really have a different idea about whats fast and we really aren't seeing each others POV at all.

 

[Yeroc]

As a 3rd party, I have to agree with zxeon here. Matches indeed could be played in shorter amount of time, or faster if you will. But that has absolutely no bearing on the speed of the actual gameplay. The movespeed and overall pacing of Melee is head and shoulders above either of the other 2 games, and just because it takes longer in that game to win a lower stock match doesn't change that. On those rare occasions in Melee where someone obliterates someone else's stock it goes ever so much quicker in Melee than SSB ever could.

 

[Alopex]

Ok, about 64 speed:


It's not a faster game.

There's confusion GAME speed with GAMEPLAY speed.

64 has the fastest GAMEPLAY because you die early, die easy, and get comboed into death quickly.

The GAME mechanics themselves are very slow. Characters jump slowly, roll slowly, run slowly, horizontal air movement is slow, projectiles move very slowly, smash attacks are slow...
Etc.

What makes the GAMEPLAY fast? The hitstun and the fast aerials.
That's it. Get the opponent in the air and now they're a rag doll. Combos always look fast, and a game looks fast when a match ends fast. But matches only end fast because the mechanics make it eeeeeeeeasy to kill someone and hard to avoid getting killed.


Brawl has slooooooooow matches, but the GAME is faster. Everything is faster in Brawl except fast-falling (which won't be the case in Brawl+ anyway, though, since we're trying to fix that).
But Brawl's GAMEPLAY makes for very slow playstyles and matches.
It's defensive, easy to recover, gives tons of ways to avoid getting killed, and makes combos impossible.
All this leads to a feeling of inherent sluggishness.

But that's not how fast the GAME is.
Jumps are executed way faster in Brawl, horizontal air movement is much faster, run speeds are faster, all projectiles are waaaay faster, rolls are way faster, and smash attacks come out faster (especially with the C-stick).

But Brawl doesn't let you use that speed.

Because it has crap hitstun.

But it's a faster GAME. And with that speed, catching a DI'ing opponent who is in 64 hitstun would be extremely easy. It shouldn't be so easy, and it's why 64 hitstun is too much for Brawl+. More hitstun, yes. More hitstun than Melee, yeah probably. 64 hitstun, no.

I understand that knockback in Brawl is generally too huge for combos anyway, but I thought this was something you guys were trying to remove? So I was speaking about Brawl+ as a finished product, not as current Brawl w/ mods.


And if that's the case, then lower knockback, faster game (especially with gravity/fast fall mods), 64 hitstun... we would see the return of 64 combos. Those combos were broken. Plain and simple. Fun as hell, but broken.

 

[MBlaze]

Ok, about 64 speed:


It's not a faster game.

There's confusion GAME speed with GAMEPLAY speed.

64 has the fastest GAMEPLAY because you die early, die easy, and get comboed into death quickly.

The GAME mechanics themselves are very slow. Characters jump slowly, roll slowly, run slowly, horizontal air movement is slow, projectiles move very slowly, smash attacks are slow...
Etc.

What makes the GAMEPLAY fast? The hitstun and the fast aerials.
That's it. Get the opponent in the air and now they're a rag doll. Combos always look fast, and a game looks fast when a match ends fast. But matches only end fast because the mechanics make it eeeeeeeeasy to kill someone and hard to avoid getting killed.


Brawl has slooooooooow matches, but the GAME is faster. Everything is faster in Brawl except fast-falling (which won't be the case in Brawl+ anyway, though, since we're trying to fix that).
But Brawl's GAMEPLAY makes for very slow playstyles and matches.
It's defensive, easy to recover, gives tons of ways to avoid getting killed, and makes combos impossible.
All this leads to a feeling of inherent sluggishness.

But that's not how fast the GAME is.
Jumps are executed way faster in Brawl, horizontal air movement is much faster, run speeds are faster, all projectiles are waaaay faster, rolls are way faster, and smash attacks come out faster (especially with the C-stick).

But Brawl doesn't let you use that speed.

Because it has crap hitstun.

But it's a faster GAME. And with that speed, catching a DI'ing opponent who is in 64 hitstun would be extremely easy.

I understand that knockback in Brawl is generally too huge for combos anyway, but I thought this was something you guys were trying to remove? So I was speaking about Brawl+ as a finished product, not as current Brawl w/ mods.


And if that's the case, then lower knockback, faster game (especially with gravity/fast fall mods), 64 hitstun... we would see the return of 64 combos. Those combos were broken. Plain and simple. Fun as hell, but broken.

I agree with almost everything, we're not trying to bring those combos back.

 

[MuBa]

Since people tend to like fast paced and intense fighting games, I think we should ask the hackers to make a code that will make characters execute attacks (Non B moves) and faster dash speed just a bit noticeably faster along with faster (fast) falls with normal jump gravity.

 

[leafgreen386]

What we have here is a difference between match time and game speed, which are two completely different things. Kupo, you're referring almost exclusively to match time, and calling it game speed, when it's really something entirely different. Whenever most people think about game speed, they're referring to how fast and maneuverable the characters are, and performing more actions in a certain time period. In melee, you could shffl a nair with fox, shine, wavedash out of the shine, grab, uthrow, and uair, all in a very short instant. In neither brawl nor 64 do you have speed like that. Melee not only had (relatively) short match times, but the entire game was coming at you all at once at every moment of it, which is why people say the game is fast. If all of the characters' actions were slowed down, but their kill moves killed much earlier, causing games to end faster than 64, then it would still have slower gameplay than the melee we have now.

I understand that you want shorter match times, but that will come naturally as we increase the overall game speed, which is something we really need to do.

 

[cultofrubik]

+1 cookie!

 

[kupo15]

What makes the GAMEPLAY fast? The hitstun and the fast aerials.
That's it. Get the opponent in the air and now they're a rag doll. Combos always look fast, and a game looks fast when a match ends fast. But matches only end fast because the mechanics make it eeeeeeeeasy to kill someone and hard to avoid getting killed.

Im glad you didn't say wavedashing

Brawl has slooooooooow matches, but the GAME is faster. Everything is faster in Brawl except fast-falling (which won't be the case in Brawl+ anyway, though, since we're trying to fix that).
But Brawl's GAMEPLAY makes for very slow playstyles and matches.
It's defensive, easy to recover, gives tons of ways to avoid getting killed, and makes combos impossible.
All this leads to a feeling of inherent sluggishness.

No your wrong but right on certain aspects such as ease of recovery and defensive nature. The game mechanics in brawl are slower than 64. 64 has z canceling which eliminates all aerial lag and brawl has no universal lag canceling. Even with brawl+, we are going to use half lag which is still slower than 64.

Brawl's air speed is also slower than 64
Brawl's ground attacks and throws are slower than 64

But it's a faster GAME. And with that speed, catching a DI'ing opponent who is in 64 hitstun would be extremely easy. It shouldn't be so easy, and it's why 64 hitstun is too much for Brawl+. More hitstun, yes. More hitstun than Melee, yeah probably. 64 hitstun, no.

With slower air movement and strong DI, i dont see how comboing would be easy. You seem to not know what DI is or how it affects the combo game if you keep refuting this. Do I know that 64 hit stun is the perfect amount? Absolutely not! But am I willing to test it out? Yes. If it is too much, we scale it down. Why are you so against giving it a try? I agree that comboing shouldn't be as easy as 64.

I understand that knockback in Brawl is generally too huge for combos anyway, but I thought this was something you guys were trying to remove? So I was speaking about Brawl+ as a finished product, not as current Brawl w/ mods.

not that I know of. We shouldn't tamper with the knockback of moves.

And if that's the case, then lower knockback, faster game (especially with gravity/fast fall mods), 64 hitstun... we would see the return of 64 combos. Those combos were broken. Plain and simple. Fun as hell, but broken.

We shouldn't tamper with gravity or knockback. Here are the main reasons why 64's combos were so broken.

1. No DI
You had no control over how you flew after getting hit which means the opponent knows what move will come next since you go the same way every time.

2. No wall teching
You saw this a lot in hyrule castle with insane wall combos. Had you be able to tech, you would survive better. Let me refer you to this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urUBMrtXwyA&feature=related The first stock shows that if you had wall teching, that combo would not be broken and he could have survived that.

Hit stun did not make for 64's broken combo system as I pointed out before. If you look at any 64 match, you will notice that the hit stun from non throws are pretty good. If you had the ability to DI so that you are further away, comboing would be harder. The only "overpowerd" hit stun in 64 were the throws and you could say this was fine since the throws sent you away pretty far. But it is possible that they were overpowered since you couldn't DI away to be even further away than where the throws put you.

We are not trying to make 64 combos come back and if you think about it, it will be impossible due to Brawl's strong DI and naturally overpowered defense. I suggested that we start with 64 hit stun length then reduce the stun time if we feel its too much. Its easier to tell if you have too much and scale back then not enough and scale forward.

The 64 hit stun is a suggestion that we try, not a set in stone answer.

And of course, we should be looking down the road.