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People will debate the matchups they don't agree with. They might even go to the matchup threads and debate it there. But eventually this matchup thread will become relatively accurate.
They are capable of maintaining spacing more easily than Kirby because their projectiles have better range and less cooldown time than Kirby's ^B.
Falco gets into the air VERY quickly and has various methods of stopping a Kirby that is in the air. There are several youtube vids showing air camping Kirby'sand w easily Falco goes up and tears them apart.
but lets forget the fact your opponent can smash DI and air dodge the attack. It isn't terribly hard to avoid a hammer especially when it comes out more slowly than his other moves at low percents.
because the same thing is attempted by Snake and Falco ends up harassing him constantly with a Dair and actually landing it.
With Fox where there is no flinch why would Kirby be ducking? you're better off just attacking him while he's blasting since he's vulnerable.
I can se eit with Fox but Falco and Wolf typically would maintain spacing that way either Kirby is out of range and eneds to get closer, or so that they are close enough to go for a grab and even then mind you they have their other moves.
But they are ridiculously fast.
We aren't discussing Kirby's recovery we are discussing the spacies.
Except Kirby is lighter than most so the percentages at which he dies is earlier.
grab combos leading into inhale? Might I ask do they require no DI in order to work?
What is so hard to understand that a spacy will RARELY get spit under the stage?
I can understand the rating for Fox but not for Wolf and definitely not for Falco.
Nope, I've never heard of spacing. Not once.
No we don't what's Bowser's approach game against Ike? We need half-way competent players to see whether bowser can practically approach Ike and vice versa.
Generally Ike has to approach Bowser, Fire Breath will force at least that. Bowser's forward air does come out faster than even Ike's back air. Bowser's forward tilt also comes out faster and matches Ike in range. Bowser can shield fortress many of Ike's attacks before he can recover as well, including his aerials and if Ike is above Bowser up-air is a KO at 70%.
How is that? Ike has no projectile ability to speak of he'll have to come at Bowser if Bowser short hop fire breaths at him, and Bowser can cancel and shield before Ike jumps over the fire with an aerial if he's spaced properly.
Fire Breath is not long enough ranged to force an approach. Really it IS an approach in an of itself. It's just too easy to get around.
if bowser is shorthopping FB, then BOWSER is already approaching...
Of course not he could also approach through the air.
Because at whichy point the spacy doesn't have to do ANYTHING.
yeah exactly, you're placing yourself in a situation where you can't do anything to the spacy.
Of coure not Wolf uses it to bait and force the opponent to approach. no wait.
Cause its mostly true. Ho often do you get a spacy under?
The side B has some of the worst priority in the game its to be expect.
Of course not, it might be due to get hit far enough so that whent hey try to recover its much more difficult
Its predictable yes, but its very fast.
Say that to Sonic's ^B
Which is why its difficult to edge guard the following.
OK, so you go from saying that Kirby can't approach, to having to approach, to being able to approach?
You're right, the space animal doesn't have to do anything but as soon as you stop firing the lasers Kirby will stand back up again. Standing up and ducking down is faster than any of their lasers.
This argument started because you said that the space animals would force Kirby to approach, so now you're trying to persuade me to approach?
Ducking doesn't suck, because it forces all space animals to either keep using laser the whole match (which is harder on the hands than holding down on the joystick) or to approach.
Baiting and forcing an approach are the same thing, which won't work because Kirby can duck.
Once again, causing damage and baiting don't work with a crouch.
Racking up damage doesn't work when it doesn't hit.
Forcing an approach (which none of them can do) and spacing are not the same thing. Why does it feel like in walking in circles, here?
Inhaling brings below the edge and hitting through a side b brings them lower, almost always low enough to be under the stage because Falco will use side b to grab the edge or go just above the edge.... not way above the edge because that would be too easy to punish on the way down.
Then why do you make it sound like it is so hard to get a space animal below the stage? It's predictable and gets cut through.
...what? Explain this sentence. Inhaling a Falco is not hard through his side B, and easily gets Falco below the stage.
Even a simple grab combo finished with a Fsmash gets a space animal off the stage. With Kirby's wide variety of killing moves it isn't hard to get anyone off of the stage.
That first sentence is incomprehensible, but getting a space animal far off the stage or at high percentage is not hard. They're not hard to combo by any means, take an easy 50 percent dmg through grab combos, and Fox can be killed by an fsmash at about 90.l
It doesn't matter how fast something is if it's predictable and risky. Preparing for a move before it is executed is easy due to it's predictability.
Sonic's UpB would be very easy to gimp or spike if he couldn't do an aerial after using it. It's predictable and fast, but it isn't nearly as punishable.
Sonic can aerial after the spring, and Rob can aerial throughout the whole thing. ROB's recovery is a lot like Kirby's... both aren't that predictable and Kirby's is less predictable.
In that case, it sounds to me like you just have poor anticipation or execution.
Yes because surely the spacies aren't3 DIFFERENT characters. either respond to it or don't quite.
Faster than Wolf's? Yes
A campy Falco FORCES Kirby to approach.
You're approaching right?
no it'll only keep him pinned down by Falco.
yes cause crouching stops everything.
Well you're not racking up damage by ducking against Falco are you?
You are clearly ignorant if you believe Falco and Wolf do not force approaches. its what they KNOWN for doing. Does Kirbvy have a reliable projectile?
Wolf can cancel side B above the ledge and retain the momentum while falling making it difficult to edge guard. Falco and Fox can do something similar though though their's doesn't retain as much momentum and of course shortens the length of the side B.
because its hard to HIT them. The amount of speed is great.
okay think of it like tihs.
If they are at the edge baiting you most likely they won't be stupid enough to get grabbed.
Except that you have to actually land said kill moves.
My mistake i had typed something earlier and forgot to edit for clarity.
but only when you have the time to prepare for the move.
yes lets forget the dodge frames DURING the ^B, the vertical height, the speed of the recovery.
I've already shown that Sonic doesn't NEED aerials after the spring.
He doesn't necessarily need it either.
Except his gives him more height/distance and is controllable like Kirby's.
I main sonic, 90% of my kills come from gimping. I have confidence in my edge guarding ability especially since Kirby has more aerial speed overall and more enduring attacks.
I think in general his point was that when kirby ducks, he can't be hit by the laser, so none of them have a reliable projectile against him, so he's not forced to approach, but neither are the spacies.
Meh. Not really. Their options are keep shooting so Kirby keeps crouching, or stop shooting and Kirby stands up.
Also, Falco > Snake, chaingrabs to spike, lasers force Snake to drop gernades, Falcos down B outranges tilts. While it's true Snake can crawl under lasers, Falco isn't all about lasers.
Olimar and Pikachu have already been argued Neutral IIRC.
Egg roll isn't enough to make Olimar that disadvantaged against him. It's Yoshi>Olimar, not Yoshi>>Olimar
lol.
Ok, let's talk about two scenarios with Kirby and Falco.
I played STH earlier, and I killed his Zelda quite a few times below 100% with Lucas (as in, before the hit). I had a harder time finding the killing blow with Ness than Lucas simply because I couldn't get close enough to make it happen.
