Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[PhantomBrawler]

Ok, let's talk about two scenarios with Kirby and Falco.

Scenario 1:

Game start, Falco starts using his blaster.

Kirby ducks.

As you would see it, Falco is trapping Kirby in the duck.

Another way to see it is that Kirby is trapping Falco in the lasers. They are both even right there, neither is going to move or take damage until they get bored.

Scenario 2:

Falco starts spamming the laser while Kirby is much closer, but too far away for a dtilt.

Kirby ducks. This could continue mcuh in the same matter as scenario 1, or Falco could stop firing and go for a sh'd dair, as you think Falco can do if Kirby ducks his lasers.

Unfortunately, as soon as Kirby sees Falco missing a blast (because he is no longer shooting), Kirby will be in the air moving toward Falco before Falco can put his laser away, because Kirby standing up after a duck takes much less time than Falco putting away his blaster.

And, in an earlier post, when I explained that after Kirby gets them under the stage with neutral B, the spacie would have to use upB to recover from that point, but upB is gimpable. To which you replied "they wouldn't use upB, they would use sideB" or something along those lines. This is why I said that they couldn't use their sideB, they'd be under the stage.

your scenario is flawed considering no falco pro would shoot his laser consistently on the floor because of the holstering lag of his gun. This is why falco has the technique SHDL and SHL to remove the lag from the laser. Then, if kirby were to duck under the lasers this would leave falco plenty of time to attack since there is now no holstering lag. Falco>Kirby

 

[DMG]

Well you guys have got me interested in Kirby vs Falco, so I might as well throw something out there myself.

1. Lasers here are not very influential towards either side. Falco can cancel the lag on them while Kirby shouldn't have a problem dodging them. If you compare the time Falco has to react after he shoots a SHL or SHDL to the time it takes Kirby to react from a crouch, they are relatively the same. So while the lasers aren't totally worthless here, they certainly do not give Falco a real advantage over Kirby. They ARE helpful in keeping up a wall and playing it safe, but they aren't gonna be racking up damage as they do normally.

2. Kirby will almost certainly gimp the crap out of Falco... There's no "But what if Falco does this?" types of scenarios, Kirby usually can have them all covered realistically. It's not a guaranteed kill for Kirby, but Falco will definitely have a hard time making it back alive.

3. Falco pretty much beats Kirby head to head in the air, and they go about even on the ground, depending on what exactly you are looking at.


The way I look at it, if Falco plays defensively enough and never tries to do anything very risky, then it should be even or possibly in his favor, just because Kirby will have a hard time really punishing someone that isn't doing punishable things (Falco's SHDL, SH Phantasm, Jab, maybe a few tilts as well are pretty safe IMO). If Falco decides to go aggressive and try to just beat down Kirby, then Kirby gets the advantage. This matchup seems based a lot more on the player's own individual playing styles compared to most matchups IMO.

Of course, I'm no expert on either character, but I have played against a great Falco (Sethlon) and I know how hard it is to get at Falco if he plays it safe for most of the match.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ok, let's talk about two scenarios with Kirby and Falco.

Scenario 1:

Game start, Falco starts using his blaster.

Kirby ducks.

As you would see it, Falco is trapping Kirby in the duck.

Another way to see it is that Kirby is trapping Falco in the lasers. They are both even right there, neither is going to move or take damage until they get bored.

Falco can SDL and therefore keep Kirby pinned while approaching safely. Or he can SDL and whack Kirby in the face with his reflector.
The SDL gives no holster lag.

Scenario 2:

Falco starts spamming the laser while Kirby is much closer, but too far away for a dtilt.

Kirby ducks. This could continue mcuh in the same matter as scenario 1, or Falco could stop firing and go for a sh'd dair, as you think Falco can do if Kirby ducks his lasers.

Or move in for a Bair, Nair, Ftilt, U tilt., Dair, reflector or simply phantasm to approach.
Or continue SDLing and keep Kirby up in the air and force Kirby toa pproach and thereby limit Kirby's options.

Unfortunately, as soon as Kirby sees Falco missing a blast (because he is no longer shooting), Kirby will be in the air moving toward Falco before Falco can put his laser away, because Kirby standing up after a duck takes much less time than Falco putting away his blaster.

At which point Falco can deal with Kirby being in th air with his Nair, Bairs and laser and reflector etc etc.
Do you not see that Falco is basically FORCING Kirby into this situation?
It isn't like Kirby can just start dashing back and forth with empty shorthops.
He either takes to the air or stays on the ground.

And, in an earlier post, when I explained that after Kirby gets them under the stage with neutral B, the spacie would have to use upB to recover from that point, but upB is gimpable. To which you replied "they wouldn't use upB, they would use sideB" or something along those lines. This is why I said that they couldn't use their sideB, they'd be under the stage.

I had misinterpreted earlier then. Yes once under the stage they would have an issue. However Kirby will have a very difficult time getting them under the stage, moreso wolf and Falco because Wolf has slight elevation and can stage scar while Falco has less startup time than Fox.


Well you guys have got me interested in Kirby vs Falco, so I might as well throw something out there myself.

1. Lasers here are not very influential towards either side. Falco can cancel the lag on them while Kirby shouldn't have a problem dodging them. If you compare the time Falco has to react after he shoots a SHL or SHDL to the time it takes Kirby to react from a crouch, they are relatively the same. So while the lasers aren't totally worthless here, they certainly do not give Falco a real advantage over Kirby. They ARE helpful in keeping up a wall and playing it safe, but they aren't gonna be racking up damage as they do normally.

Um the damage isn't what makes them influential. the Laser from Falco and Wolf are NOT MEANT AS DAMAGE RACKERS!
They make the wall as you said and it is a very effective wall.
Why?
Because Falco can very easily get up to where Kirby is located and counter his aerial approaches with his Bairs, Nairs and other moves.
Its the fact he is pressuring and forcing Kirby to do things he normally does not want to do that Falco has the advantage.

2. Kirby will almost certainly gimp the crap out of Falco... There's no "But what if Falco does this?" types of scenarios, Kirby usually can have them all covered realistically. It's not a guaranteed kill for Kirby, but Falco will definitely have a hard time making it back alive.

Again assuming the Falco is an idiot.
Kirby will attempt ti gimp the heck out of Falco, but Falco relies on his side B which is much more reliable than people give credit for. Look up the video and you'll see a campy Falco facing off against a Kirby.

Kirby can gimp him but its the difficulty getting him off the stage and keeping him off that is the issue.
Falco just won't give Kirby the ability to get there to the ledge for a quick gimp.

3. Falco pretty much beats Kirby head to head in the air, and they go about even on the ground, depending on what exactly you are looking at.

Not at all even on the ground.
Kirby does have a ground game but it is not even with Falco's.
Falco simply has much more going for him and can easily wall Kirby on the ground as well as take an offensive approach to Kirby.

The way I look at it, if Falco plays defensively enough and never tries to do anything very risky, then it should be even or possibly in his favor, just because Kirby will have a hard time really punishing someone that isn't doing punishable things (Falco's SHDL, SH Phantasm, Jab, maybe a few tilts as well are pretty safe IMO). If Falco decides to go aggressive and try to just beat down Kirby, then Kirby gets the advantage. This matchup seems based a lot more on the player's own individual playing styles compared to most matchups IMO.

It isn't based on individual styles.

Kirby wouldn't get the advantage if Falco wanted to go aggressive. Simply because Falco has very few moves that can be punished and all of his moves have a good amount of range to them.

Fsmash is comparable to Kirby's especially when it is stutterstepped. Bair beats out a good amount of Kirby's aerial game and the lasers are an excellent method of pressuring when Kirby is on the ground.
Reflector also does the job well since he can space himself away from Kirby after using it.

He just pressures Kirby too well for Kirby to really setup Falco for a KO.
He can do this to Fox maybe even Wolf (who rarely is offensive) but it will not work for Falco.
Simply since Falco is a really strong character all around and beats Kirby in a large amount of areas.

This matchup is nowhere near neutral it is definitely in Falco's favor.

his defensive game>Kirby's defensive
His offense game>Kirby's offense
His defense>kirby's offense
His offense>kirby's defense.

Kirby isn't in a massive disadvantage but he is at a disadvantage against Falco.

 

[DMG]

Um the damage isn't what makes them influential. the Laser from Falco and Wolf are NOT MEANT AS DAMAGE RACKERS!
They make the wall as you said and it is a very effective wall.
Why?
Because Falco can very easily get up to where Kirby is located and counter his aerial approaches with his Bairs, Nairs and other moves.
Its the fact he is pressuring and forcing Kirby to do things he normally does not want to do that Falco has the advantage.

Again assuming the Falco is an idiot.
Kirby will attempt ti gimp the heck out of Falco, but Falco relies on his side B which is much more reliable than people give credit for. Look up the video and you'll see a campy Falco facing off against a Kirby.

Kirby can gimp him but its the difficulty getting him off the stage and keeping him off that is the issue.
Falco just won't give Kirby the ability to get there to the ledge for a quick gimp.

I guess I have underestimated the wall, and yeah the damage dealing part wasn't what I was focused on, but I know what you mean.

I admit, getting him offstage is certainly a problem, but once he gets off he has a ton of edgeguarding/gimps to get around. Phantasm is fast but still intercepted somewhat easily unless you are way above or below him.

Not at all even on the ground.
Kirby does have a ground game but it is not even with Falco's.
Falco simply has much more going for him and can easily wall Kirby on the ground as well as take an offensive approach to Kirby.

I meant that Kirby has comparable range/speed on the ground except for Falco's reflector. If you look at how well each character can utilize those moves as a whole however, then Falco wins certainly.

He just pressures Kirby too well for Kirby to really setup Falco for a KO.
He can do this to Fox maybe even Wolf (who rarely is offensive) but it will not work for Falco.
Simply since Falco is a really strong character all around and beats Kirby in a large amount of areas.

This matchup is nowhere near neutral it is definitely in Falco's favor.

his defensive game>Kirby's defensive
His offense game>Kirby's offense
His defense>kirby's offense
His offense>kirby's defense.

Kirby isn't in a massive disadvantage but he is at a disadvantage against Falco.

That all sounds pretty accurate. Anyone have any objections to making Falco>Kirby on the chart? Seems pretty logical now after comparing their respective games (offense and defense).

 

[Sosuke]

I'd say Toon Links sorta bad against ROB due to airial and spam comparison, but ehh.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I played STH earlier, and I killed his Zelda quite a few times below 100% with Lucas (as in, before the hit). I had a harder time finding the killing blow with Ness than Lucas simply because I couldn't get close enough to make it happen.

despite not performing terribly well against either (a few times I let myself get killed at below 20% damage >_<) It was obvious that Zelda had some control over the Ness matchup. I.E. she helped controlt eh pace of the matchup and, while she couldn't land lightning kicks or din's on ness like she could other characters, she still played comforty against him.

Lucas was just a LOT harder to find an opening against, and he killed her a lot easier. Ness felt like he had NO special advantage on Zelda whatsoever, becuase what he can do to her din's fire with psy magnet, she can answer easily for against his projectile game. Lucas's projectile game was far less punishable AND he was harder to find an opening against AND he KOd easier.... ness DOES NOT have an advantage vs. Zelda based on anything I've seen or experienced.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Changes which need to be made:
Yoshi >> Olimar
Falco > Meta Knight
Olimar > Snake
Pikachu > Snake

Can you give any GOOD reasons why you believe any of this ****? If you can't, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Izzhov]

Can you give any GOOD reasons why you believe any of this ****? If you can't, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Yoshi >> Olimar: Yoshi's air game is so much better that it's ridiculous. Also Olimar's recovery is more easily gimped by Yoshi than vice versa. Also Egg Roll.
Olimar > Snake: This has already been discussed, but it basically boils down to Olimar being a better camper.
Falco > Meta Knight: Falco has a projectile and he has a chain grab and his specials outprioritize MK's and his aerials have more priority and he packs a punch so he can kill quickly.
Pikachu > Snake: Good range, speed, priority, projectile, down smash.

 

[DanGR]

I disagree with Yoshi>>Olimar from what you said simply b/c your arguments are the same as any other character v Olimar that has an aerial game better than Olimar's. That isn't everything.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

For the Falco vs Kirby: I think its neutral. Kirby's air game is > Falco's. His dair is a better spike. Falco's bair is better though. Kirby's fair racks up good damage and has much better range than Falco's. Uair sets up for combos, while Falco's is kinda difficult to hit with but KO's and Kirby goes through uair with rock.And their nairs are pretty equal,it depens on your taste. On the ground Falcos smashes are all better versions of Kirbys. Their tilts are pretty similar too. But Kirby's uair juggles, but Falco's juggles better. And with lasers, dont forget Kriby can get himself some lasers too. And Kirby can duck under lasers, or turn into a rock. Falco's reflector keeps him spaced and reflects Kirby's up-b.Fantasm is decent for approach, but punishable. And hammer is excellent for KO's and gets combo'd into.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yoshi >> Olimar: Yoshi's air game is so much better that it's ridiculous. Also Olimar's recovery is more easily gimped by Yoshi than vice versa. Also Egg Roll.

It can still be grabbed.
Olimars ground game>>>>yoshi
Provide more evidence other than yoshi's aerual game being better since many characters have a better aerialg ame than Olimar and still are at a disadvantage.

Falco > Meta Knight: Falco has a projectile and he has a chain grab and his specials outprioritize MK's and his aerials have more priority and he packs a punch so he can kill quickly.

Wrong about the aerials.
Disjointed hitboxes>regular hitboxes.
MK's aerial game beats out Falco's
Its his ground game and walls that give problems to MK.
MK can rack up damage easily and gimp Falco very quickly and easily.
Also the CG doesn't last very long and its hard to Dair MK.

Pikachu > Snake: Good range, speed, priority, projectile, down smash.

Dsmash can be DI'ed of everyone needs to get this through their head.
Projectile is a poor reason.
Snake's nikita>Pikachu's projectile.
SNake also has similar priority.

 

[Kiwikomix]

To give Pikachu some credit, he can completely avoid most of Snake's camping strategies with QAC. However, any player can expect that and Snake is broken enough at close range to just hit him away with an f-tilt or a jab. At most it's neutral, I would say.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Blargh so that means at worst we have 3 characters that snake has a disadvantage against, none of which are really hard counters (except maybe Olimar )

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

But enough high characters play even with snake... right?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not really since I don't believe any of those characters are hard counters for snake.
If there are hard counters there is at most two.

 

[Nestec]

despite not performing terribly well against either (a few times I let myself get killed at below 20% damage >_<) It was obvious that Zelda had some control over the Ness matchup. I.E. she helped controlt eh pace of the matchup and, while she couldn't land lightning kicks or din's on ness like she could other characters, she still played comforty against him.

Lucas was just a LOT harder to find an opening against, and he killed her a lot easier. Ness felt like he had NO special advantage on Zelda whatsoever, becuase what he can do to her din's fire with psy magnet, she can answer easily for against his projectile game. Lucas's projectile game was far less punishable AND he was harder to find an opening against AND he KOd easier.... ness DOES NOT have an advantage vs. Zelda based on anything I've seen or experienced.

Well, I don't know too much about Lucas, but Ness can do to Zelda just about whatever he Lucas can. I agree about Lucas' projectiles being less punishable though, lol. Stupid wavebounced PKF.

But regardless, Ness can pressure Zelda with PKF just as good as he can on anyone else. And it doesn't take long to get her damage into the 110-120% range, where she begins to get killed by Bthrow.

 

[Brinzy]

Perhaps he should play a better Ness (I'm a Lucas main). Also, playing defensive with Zelda is arguably the best way to play her... since that's how she was designed. Facing him was basically a baiting game between the two of us. However, the problem for me was that he avoided the air with both characters, since Zelda probably operates better on the ground anyway, so it's not like I could use Ness's aerials on his Zelda that much. Short-hopping wasn't too viable either because of Nayru's Love and even that god forsaken Dsmash.

 

[gantrain05]

Perhaps he should play a better Ness (I'm a Lucas main). Also, playing defensive with Zelda is arguably the best way to play her... since that's how she was designed. Facing him was basically a baiting game between the two of us. However, the problem for me was that he avoided the air with both characters, since Zelda probably operates better on the ground anyway, so it's not like I could use Ness's aerials on his Zelda that much. Short-hopping wasn't too viable either because of Nayru's Love and even that god forsaken Dsmash.

i don't know, im a ness secondary, peach main, but when i fight zelda vs ness, i just use SH Fair with good DI so that i land back far enough that i won't get punished after landing, basically i poke at her shield till its low enuf to hit with the full Fair and then follow up afterwards, i've never had trouble with zelda, but maybe i just need to fight some better ones or something.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Perhaps he should play a better Ness (I'm a Lucas main). Also, playing defensive with Zelda is arguably the best way to play her... since that's how she was designed. Facing him was basically a baiting game between the two of us. However, the problem for me was that he avoided the air with both characters, since Zelda probably operates better on the ground anyway, so it's not like I could use Ness's aerials on his Zelda that much. Short-hopping wasn't too viable either because of Nayru's Love and even that god forsaken Dsmash.

The problem with ness as opposed to lucas is just what I said, he's easier to avoid and easier to get inside... as a result, Ness won't rack up damage on Zelda any quicker than Zelda will on him... and Zelda kills Ness just as easily as he kills her.

Lucas, on the other hand, is much harder to get inside, and he kills more easily because he has more killing options. And, BTW, Zelda is one of the hardest charachters to grab thanks to her great defensive game and Nayrues love and her Dsmash... so good luck geting inside to Bthrow her.
EDIT: and... becasue of that... you might find that you use the Bthrow the very first opportunity that you get and, if Zelda didn't die from it... then you just decayed your best kill move.


Another consideration is that Lucas is much harder to punish off the edge... better jumps, a less punishable PKT recovery and an optional teather make him a much harder competitor to put down.

And, Ness can't PKF pressure near as well as lucas. Ness doesn't move back after he PKFs like lucas does, and he also has considerably more cooldown lag on it than Lucas... AND Zelda can reflect it at any time... even if the pillar of fire is already on her... which realy helps to protect her, since Ness can't use it to combo into a grab as long as you reflect it.

Even WITH all the advantages lucas has over ness vs. Zelda... lucas still isn't really a counter for zelda... he's just a good matchup so there's no way Ness is.

Ness and lucas may look similar... but just because one performs well against one character that doesn't mean the other will... a lot of the reasons lucas is hard just don't transfer to ness.


And, I'll admit... I'm n unorthodox Zelda. I'll never be able to break my glass ceiling and go pro with any character because, it doesn't matter how well I do, I always randomly kill myself or set myself up for low damage kills. Example was one of my battles with Raphael.... I had roughly a 2 stock advantage on Ness... but he won because I died at below 20% damage twice in one match.... whoops.
And, besides that, I use Farore's Wind far more than the standard Zelda player does... and it's a great response to that accursed PKT sniping.
Also, I don't play airborne much unless I have you being pressured up there... but that's pretty standard of Zelda... she doesn't like being airborne... and Ness's better aerial game doesn't mean much if he can't keep you there.

 

[gantrain05]

The peoblem with ness as opposed to lucas is just what I said, he's easier to avoid and easier to get inside... as a result, Ness won't rack up damage on Zelda any quicker than Zelda will on him... and Zelda kills Ness just as easily as he kills her.

Lucas, on the other hand, is much harder to get inside, and he kills more easily because he has more killing options. And, BTW, Zelda is one of the hardest charachters to grab thanks to her great defensive game and Nayrues love and her Dsmash... so good luck geting inside to Bthrow her.


Another consideration is that Lucas is much harder to punish off the edge... better jumps, a less punishable PKT recovery and an optional teather make him a much harder competitor to put down.

And, Ness can't PKF pressure near as well as lucas. Ness doesn't move back after he PKFs like lucas does, and he also has considerably more cooldown lag on it than Lucas... AND Zelda can reflect it at any time... even if the pillar of fire is already on her... which realy helps to protect her, since Ness can't use it to combo into a grab as long as you reflect it.

Even WITH all the advantages lucas has over ness vs. Zelda... lucas still isn't really a counter for zelda... he's just a good matchup so there's no way Ness is.

Ness and lucas may look similar... but just because one performs well against one character that doesn't mean the other will... a lot of the reasons lucas is hard just don't transfer to ness.


And, I'll admit... I'm n unorthodox Zelda. I'll never be able to break my glass ceiling and go pro with any character because, it doesn't matter how well I do, I always randomly kill myself or set myself up for low damage kills. Example was one of my battles with Raphael.... I had roughly a 2 stock advantage on Ness... but he won because I died at below 20% damage twice in one match.... whoops.
And, besides that, I use Farore's Wind far more than the standard Zelda player does... and it's a great response to that accursed PKT sniping.
Also, I don't play airborne much unless I have you being pressured up there... but that's pretty standard of Zelda... she doesn't like being airborne... and Ness's better aerial game doesn't mean much if he can't keep you there.

this makes absolutely no sense, u cannot just assume that because zelda > lucas that means that Zelda > Ness thats ********. and no, they don't act or even feel like they are close to the same character lucas and ness play entirely different and ness just has an easier time with zelda, ness fights in the air, and its not hard to get your opponent up there with u. so don't just automatically assume that because u believe zelda > lucas and u think that lucas > ness that zelda automatically wins, thats just arrogant.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

this makes absolutely no sense, u cannot just assume that because zelda > lucas that means that Zelda > Ness thats ********. and no, they don't act or even feel like they are close to the same character lucas and ness play entirely different and ness just has an easier time with zelda, ness fights in the air, and its not hard to get your opponent up there with u. so don't just automatically assume that because u believe zelda > lucas and u think that lucas > ness that zelda automatically wins, thats just arrogant.

Um... I'm not really going to respond to this post... because it's ignorant....

My only respose would be "read the post that you are quoting before you comment on it"

 

[DanGR]

STH-you are comparing the two. Not talking about the matchup.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

STH-you are comparing the two. Not talking about the matchup.

yes... I'm comparing the two in relationship to Zelda... I thought that would be assumed.
Don't act like that argument has no validity.

Anytime I say something like, "much harder to get inside" that translates to "much harder for Zelda to get inside"

There was absolutely nothing wrong with my post. We are talking about two zelda matchups at once... it only makes sense to compare them... especially when the pesron I was directing this toward (gentrain) said:

, but Ness can do to Zelda just about whatever he Lucas can.

I completely dedicated that post to saying how utterly wrong that statement was.... and what problem exactly do you have with that this time huh?

 

[Brinzy]

this makes absolutely no sense, u cannot just assume that because zelda > lucas that means that Zelda > Ness thats ********. and no, they don't act or even feel like they are close to the same character lucas and ness play entirely different and ness just has an easier time with zelda, ness fights in the air, and its not hard to get your opponent up there with u. so don't just automatically assume that because u believe zelda > lucas and u think that lucas > ness that zelda automatically wins, thats just arrogant.

.......

He said that Lucas probably deserves a check vs. Zelda. He did not say "Zelda > Lucas."

He's also comparing both characters TO ZELDA.

 

[gantrain05]

yes... I'm comparing the two in relationship to Zelda... I thought that would be assumed.
Don't act like that argument has no validity.

Anytime I say something like, "much harder to get inside" that translates to "much harder for Zelda to get inside"

There was absolutely nothing wrong with my post. We are talking about two zelda matchups at once... it only makes sense to compare them... especially when the pesron I was directing this toward (gentrain) said:



I completely dedicated that post to saying how utterly wrong that statement was.... and what problem exactly do you have with that this time huh?

yeah i did read the whole post i was quoting, and in no way at all were u saying how wrong that statement was, your whole post was about lucas being "harder to get inside" and **** like that, the whole post just putting down ness and saying lucas is better. and therefor zelda > ness. maybe you should read your own post.

 

[Brinzy]

He's not putting Ness down. Zelda likes to be on the ground - Lucas does better on the ground than Ness. Lucas probably stands a better chance at getting inside Zelda than Ness does. Ness can get inside Zelda too, but Lucas has enough range on the ground to match up to Zelda's. I mean, if you say they aren't the same character and that they don't play the same and whatnot, isn't there gonna be a difference between the two when it comes to matching up against others?

 

[Solaris1110]

Ivysaur is neutral against G&W, but G&W has an advantage over Ivysaur?

 

[Quagmire]

Lucas probably stands a better chance at getting inside Zelda than Ness does

Giggity giggity goo!

 

[Sosuke]

Giggity giggity goo!

LMFAO XD
10funnyfamilyguyrefrences

 

[Frown]

. Ness can get inside Zelda too, but Lucas has enough range

LAWL, was this intentional?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

wow... the past 3posts have been sex jokes... way to go match-up thread... way to go.

 

[Veggi]

Giggity giggity goo!

lol, did you make that account just to say that?

 

[Nestec]

The problem with ness as opposed to lucas is just what I said, he's easier to avoid and easier to get inside... as a result, Ness won't rack up damage on Zelda any quicker than Zelda will on him... and Zelda kills Ness just as easily as he kills her.

Lucas, on the other hand, is much harder to get inside, and he kills more easily because he has more killing options. And, BTW, Zelda is one of the hardest charachters to grab thanks to her great defensive game and Nayrues love and her Dsmash... so good luck geting inside to Bthrow her.
EDIT: and... becasue of that... you might find that you use the Bthrow the very first opportunity that you get and, if Zelda didn't die from it... then you just decayed your best kill move.


Another consideration is that Lucas is much harder to punish off the edge... better jumps, a less punishable PKT recovery and an optional teather make him a much harder competitor to put down.

Hmm, all of this I can probably agree with, except for Lucas' killing options. I can only think of DSmash and FSmash, possibly Fair...And how so is he easier to avoid and get inside of?

And edgeguarding Zelda is quite easy, when compared to the edgeguarding of other characters. The moment Ness throws Zelda out off the stage, he can follow up with PKT mindgames. Now, Zelda could teleport onto the stage, but the ending lag is far too punishable.

And, Ness can't PKF pressure near as well as lucas. Ness doesn't move back after he PKFs like lucas does, and he also has considerably more cooldown lag on it than Lucas... AND Zelda can reflect it at any time... even if the pillar of fire is already on her... which realy helps to protect her, since Ness can't use it to combo into a grab as long as you reflect it.

Ness' PKF can be auto-cancelled though when he approaches with a PK Jump. And Zelda reflecting the PK Jump will leave her open, and the reflected PKF will not hit Ness. IIRC, Nayru's Love doesn't have much lag, but Ness will be on the ground and ready to move before she drops Nayru's Love. And from there, he can either fire another PKF (which wouldn't be the best idea because of how slow it comes out), or set her up for a damage-racking dthrow. And if Ness' attempts this PK Jump approach with Zelda at a high percentage, she'll die from bthrow.

Also, I don't play airborne much unless I have you being pressured up there... but that's pretty standard of Zelda... she doesn't like being airborne... and Ness's better aerial game doesn't mean much if he can't keep you there.

Ness has some ways to get Zelda into the air: dthrow, dashattack, and some others. Zelda can't always just keep herself on the ground...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Hmm, all of this I can probably agree with, except for Lucas' killing options. I can only think of DSmash and FSmash, possibly Fair...And how so is he easier to avoid and get inside of?

All of lucas's smash attacks connect more easily that Ness's do... and the Dsmash and Usmash have MUCH more killing power.

and lucas has more priority, more disjointed hitboxes and less punishable specials than ness does... which makes him much harder to get inside.

And edgeguarding Zelda is quite easy, when compared to the edgeguarding of other characters. The moment Ness throws Zelda out off the stage, he can follow up with PKT mindgames. Now, Zelda could teleport onto the stage, but the ending lag is far too punishable.

that doesn't work for 2 reasons:
a) it's hard to get inside zelda's defensive wall to throw her.
b) if he PKTs, she has several options:
-trade hits, PKT for Din's Fire... I'll take the pathetic damage of PKT for the 15% damage Din's will deal.
- Airdodge through it
-cancel it with an aerial
-reflect it with nayru's love
- teleport onto the stage (Farore's wind actually has VERY LITTLE lag if she makes it onto the stage with it... it just has a lot of landing lag which means she'll experience a bunch of lag if she ends up in the air above the stage after she telports)
-just take the hit... it hits you TOWARDS the stage anyway

Ness' PKF can be auto-cancelled though when he approaches with a PK Jump. And Zelda reflecting the PK Jump will leave her open, and the reflected PKF will not hit Ness. IIRC, Nayru's Love doesn't have much lag, but Ness will be on the ground and ready to move before she drops Nayru's Love. And from there, he can either fire another PKF (which wouldn't be the best idea because of how slow it comes out), or set her up for a damage-racking dthrow. And if Ness' attempts this PK Jump approach with Zelda at a high percentage, she'll die from bthrow.

PKF has at least as much cool-down lag as Nayru's love... I strogly doubt you'll be able to get in for a throw after it... at least, Raph never did against Zelda for all the times he tried... he could get other characters... but not Zelda.

Ness has some ways to get Zelda into the air: dthrow, dashattack, and some others. Zelda can't always just keep herself on the ground...

yeah... but he doesn't have much that can KEEP her there... and Dthrow... he has to grab her first... and that's hard to do

 

[Nestec]

All of lucas's smash attacks connect more easily that Ness's do... and the Dsmash and Usmash have MUCH more killing power.

Lol, Lucas will not hit with usmash, unless the battle is wi-fi. But to make this less of a Ness vs Lucas discussion, what I mean to say is that Zelda will be hit by Ness' Fmash more often than Lucas' Usmash. Lucas DSmash > Ness Fmash, I'll admit, but not by much.

But however, my point isn't that Ness can beat Zelda better than Lucas can. I'm just saying Ness has an advantage regardless.

and lucas has more priority, more disjointed hitboxes and less punishable specials than ness does... which makes him much harder to get inside.

I will agree about the hitboxes, but how are Ness' specials more punishable? Lucas' PKF may push him back, but Ness can auto-cancel his PK Fire to also assure safety.

that doesn't work for 2 reasons:
a) it's hard to get inside zelda's defensive wall to throw her.
b) if he PKTs, she has several options:
-trade hits, PKT for Din's Fire... I'll take the pathetic damage of PKT for the 15% damage Din's will deal.
- Airdodge through it
-cancel it with an aerial
-reflect it with nayru's love
- teleport onto the stage (Farore's wind actually has VERY LITTLE lag if she makes it onto the stage with it... it just has a lot of landing lag which means she'll experience a bunch of lag if she ends up in the air above the stage after she telports)
-just take the hit... it hits you TOWARDS the stage anyway

First of all, PKT travels much faster than Din's Fire. Ness can easily hit Zelda, then PSI Magnet to absorb the Din's Fire. But even so...

Any good Ness user will not attack with the head of the PKT. Its tail has near-infinite priority, can rack up great damage just through tailwhipping, and because of how long the tail is, it won't be air-dodged either. Also, the PKT pulls the enemy in the direction it hits from. So Ness can tailwhip around Zelda with PKT (racking up great damage) until finally, hitting her from the back so that she is pulled away from the stage. Now if this is done from a Bthrow that didn't kill properly, Zelda's damage should already be high enough, just enough so that the PKT's head will pull her much farther away from the stage. Thus, Ness has time to shoot another KT and repeat the cycle.

Zelda's lag afterwards is still enough for Ness to freely PKF her again, then proceed to Bthrow her again as well.

PKF has at least as much cool-down lag as Nayru's love... I strogly doubt you'll be able to get in for a throw after it... at least, Raph never did against Zelda for all the times he tried... he could get other characters... but not Zelda.

PKF will have no cool-down lag after auto-cancelling it. So Zelda can either try to reflect it and get grabbed, take the hit and get grabbed anyway, or just move out of the way.

yeah... but he doesn't have much that can KEEP her there... and Dthrow... he has to grab her first... and that's hard to do

Like mentioned earlier, Ness can PK Fire Zelda into getting grabbed. And Ness is actually an incredible juggler: Uair, Fair, PKT snaking and tailwhipping...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Lol, Lucas will not hit with usmash, unless the battle is wi-fi. But to make this less of a Ness vs Lucas discussion, what I mean to say is that Zelda will be hit by Ness' Fmash more often than Lucas' Usmash. Lucas DSmash > Ness Fmash, I'll admit, but not by much.

Anytime Zelda is forced to use FW to recover onto the stage, she can get punished by a lucas Usmash... it has enough priority to pary her reappearance hitbox AND sill hit her... it does and WILL connect more often than Ness's bat since Lucas's Usmash can legitametly be used in the above fashion and Ness's bat is hard to set up into

But however, my point isn't that Ness can beat Zelda better than Lucas can. I'm just saying Ness has an advantage regardless.

but... he doesn't

I will agree about the hitboxes, but how are Ness' specials more punishable? Lucas' PKF may push him back, but Ness can auto-cancel his PK Fire to also assure safety.

they tend to have more cooldown lag

First of all, PKT travels much faster than Din's Fire. Ness can easily hit Zelda, then PSI Magnet to absorb the Din's Fire. But even so...

Any good Ness user will not attack with the head of the PKT. Its tail has near-infinite priority, can rack up great damage just through tailwhipping, and because of how long the tail is, it won't be air-dodged either. Also, the PKT pulls the enemy in the direction it hits from. So Ness can tailwhip around Zelda with PKT (racking up great damage) until finally, hitting her from the back so that she is pulled away from the stage. Now if this is done from a Bthrow that didn't kill properly, Zelda's damage should already be high enough, just enough so that the PKT's head will pull her much farther away from the stage. Thus, Ness has time to shoot another KT and repeat the cycle.

Zelda's lag afterwards is still enough for Ness to freely PKF her again, then proceed to Bthrow her again as well.

they travel roughly the same speed... I have no idea where you are getting the MUCH faster from.. and there's no WAY he can get psy magnet out in time... and it's impossible for him to if he tail whips... seriously... if Zela chooses so... they WILL trade hits unless nes cancels his attack on terain early and shields (psy magnet WILL not and I repeat WILL NOT come out in time) And the elaborate PKT manuevers you are speaking of are FAR from reliable... in addition... as previously stated... it's not as simple as "just Bthrow her" you have to grab her first, and she'll give you a really tough time doing that... and it's almost impossible to combo that grab out of a fire pillar against zelda since she can reflect the pillar even after it's initiated.

PKF will have no cool-down lag after auto-cancelling it. So Zelda can either try to reflect it and get grabbed, take the hit and get grabbed anyway, or just move out of the way.

HArd to punish Nayru's with a grab that isn't a quick tether grab. Nayru's has excelent range and, after the hitboxes drop, she doesn't have much cooldown lag... better be satisfied with just dash attacking her... and, as said before, if she gets hit by the fire, she can reflect the pilar immediately which poses ALL the problems nayru's had on its own plus a column of fire that can hurt you.

And, even if you cancel it's additional landing lag, PKF is still a fairly slow attack... Ness still can't attack immediately after using it.

Like mentioned earlier, Ness can PK Fire Zelda into getting grabbed. And Ness is actually an incredible juggler: Uair, Fair, PKT snaking and tailwhipping...

PK fire into grab is going to happen maybe 1 out of 50 tries against zelda.
As for aerially... PKT is going to get ignored because the context here was an aerial dogfight... PKT is used for sniping, not dogfighting. and, if you want me to adress it... I already did earlier.

Ness's fair is great for protecting him from Lighting Kicks and is good for other things, but it puses Zelda BACK... it doesn;t keep her airborne.

His Uair is more of a kill move than a juggler and is short enough that Zelda can dodge it and return to the ground... honestly... it's easier for zelda t get onto the groun than it is for Ness to keep her in the air.. most of this match will be fought on solid ground, Zelda's turf.


What you say CONCEPTUALLY might make sense to you... but, in a real match, it just doesn;t happen

 

[Nestec]

Anytime Zelda is forced to use FW to recover onto the stage, she can get punished by a lucas Usmash... it has enough priority to pary her reappearance hitbox AND sill hit her... it does and WILL connect more often than Ness's bat since Lucas's Usmash can legitametly be used in the above fashion and Ness's bat is hard to set up into

Bah, true...

they tend to have more cooldown lag

Ok, I honestly don't think so, especially since PK Flash and PKFire can be auto-cancelled. But I think I said that already...

they travel roughly the same speed... I have no idea where you are getting the MUCH faster from.. and there's no WAY he can get psy magnet out in time... and it's impossible for him to if he tail whips... seriously... if Zela chooses so... they WILL trade hits unless nes cancels his attack on terain early and shields (psy magnet WILL not and I repeat WILL NOT come out in time)

Ok, maybe not MUCH faster. And if PSI Magnet will not come out in time, a shield will.

And the elaborate PKT manuevers you are speaking of are FAR from reliable...

They actually are pretty reliable.

in addition... as previously stated... it's not as simple as "just Bthrow her" you have to grab her first, and she'll give you a really tough time doing that... and it's almost impossible to combo that grab out of a fire pillar against zelda since she can reflect the pillar even after it's initiated.

She can't reflect it immediately, and Ness can quickly get in to grab her, due to not having any cool-down lag from an autocancelled PK Jump/Airborne PKF.
And aside from that, it's honestly not that hard to grab Zelda, especially with the lag-cancellable aerials he can approach with. And the pressuring, high-priority Fair. IIRC, Zelda's spacing game isn't all that special.

HArd to punish Nayru's with a grab that isn't a quick tether grab. Nayru's has excelent range and, after the hitboxes drop, she doesn't have much cooldown lag... better be satisfied with just dash attacking her... and, as said before, if she gets hit by the fire, she can reflect the pilar immediately which poses ALL the problems nayru's had on its own plus a column of fire that can hurt you.

I'm pretty sure Nayru's Love can't be immediately activated in the fire. And like I said earlier, if Ness doesn't want to PKF approach, he can SH a high-priority Fair, which can almost always follow into a grab.

PK fire into grab is going to happen maybe 1 out of 50 tries against zelda.
As for aerially... PKT is going to get ignored because the context here was an aerial dogfight... PKT is used for sniping, not dogfighting. and, if you want me to adress it... I already did earlier.

Ness's fair is great for protecting him from Lighting Kicks and is good for other things, but it puses Zelda BACK... it doesn;t keep her airborne.

His Uair is more of a kill move than a juggler and is short enough that Zelda can dodge it and return to the ground... honestly... it's easier for zelda t get onto the groun than it is for Ness to keep her in the air.. most of this match will be fought on solid ground, Zelda's turf.

PKT can also be used at close-range, though it's preferred as a juggle-finisher because Ness can't move afterwards.

I don't know what you mean about the Fair; it pushes them upward at about a 45 degree angle. It only pushes back when sourspotted.

Uair can also be used as a juggle just as well. And because of how quick it is, it isn't easy to airdodge.

What you say CONCEPTUALLY might make sense to you... but, in a real match, it just doesn;t happen

Eh, what happens in a real match depends on who is playing. You can't just assume something won't happen unless it's impossible.

But even with all the mentioned scenarios, Ness shouldn't even be approaching in the first place. Absorbing Din's Fire forces Zelda to approach, right? And I don't think Zelda has a very solid approach game.

 

[Browny]

yeah... but he doesn't have much that can KEEP her there... and Dthrow... he has to grab her first... and that's hard to do

Ness probably has one of the best grab games with his huge ranged dash-grab. he can cancel a dash into a shieldgrab through just about every attack in the game. Every time zelda uses her up-b, consider yourself bthrown. zelda is very easy to edgehog with a roll-edgehog since you can just wait for the animation to begin as you roll off, as she TP's to the stage, climb up and bam. free bthrow.

the combination of Zeldas amazingly punishable recovery, and Ness' instant kill to punish anyone who lands anywhere near him in a helpless state is a major advantage.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Nestec is silly. Of course Lucas will hit with Usmash. Anybody who goes on about "lololol usmash is TOO SLOW" needs to play Lucas more.

As for the Ness vs. Zelda matchup, I agree that Lucas is more suited for battling with Zelda than Ness. Lucas has disjointed hitboxes and quick KO moves that aren't aerial or PKthunder2. Ness suffers against Zelda because her disjointed hitboxes go right through his physical attacks. He can approach with Fair which is a wimpy attack all around, or running upsmash/running attack, both of which are pretty good, but still not good enough to get inside Zelda's magic fortress.

Now Lucas on the other hand has PK Fire, which falls short if reflected by Naryu's love. His Psi magnet opens up faster and has a good KO move if it hits, meaning that he's more suited at discouraging the use of Din's fire. Lucas's faster attacks are also just a lot faster. Ftilt, Utilt, Uair, Jab. All of these come out faster and hit better than Ness's variants.

Lucas also has better recovery options, meaning less ways to get owned offstage by Din's fire clanking with your PK thunder.

Also, Zelda can't grab release Lucas and hit him with an Ftilt, while she can do that to Ness. And Ftilt kills.

Zelda is also floaty, making Lucas's up smash actually quite effective as an edgeguard/juggling move. The attack's duration is so long that it will often hit an opponent after their air dodge wears off, or when they touch down on the ground. Zelda only has her Dair to protect her from opponents coming from below, and that has relatively short range.

Whoever said that Ness's smash attacks aren't easy to land is obviously forgetting about both his yo-yos, which are really amazing attacks. We said Zelda was a defensive character? Try Ness and his yo-yos. He covers himself effectively with only two moves. Even so, a running upsmash from Ness isn't nearly as dangerous as a solid hit from Lucas's Fsmash, and Zelda has the range to poke past Ness's yo-yos anyway.

Ness's game relies a lot on good usage of PK Thunder, and we all know that Zelda can reflect PK thunder with Naryu's love. Lucas doesn't need PK thunder nearly enough.

Also, Ness's PK fire isn't a threat. Any character can escape it just by jumping before he gets a chance to attack them, even if he PK jumps it. Especially Zelda who can reflect PK thunder.

PS: it's not hard to grab Zelda. A lot of her attacks start slower than 6 frames. Ness has an excellent grab range and running grab that's quite fast.

 

[Colbert]

The real reason that Kirby is at least even with Falco, and has an advantage over Fox and Wolf is because of the 51 percent chaingrab, and how easy it is to KO them through gimping, with forward b or without. Falco can only do so much with his bair, and doesn't shut down Kirby's aerial game at all.