Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@Nesstec: Anyone who says that being able to absorb Din's fire forces Zela to approach is a complete idiot. Why? Because Ness doesn't posess a Din's fire of his own. Zelda may no longer be able to force ness to approach, but that doesn't automatically mean that He forcers her to approach either. Also. Zelda's approach game isn't awful. it's average. It's not near as strong as her defensive game, but it's not useless. And Zelda can reflect an already connected PKF before ness cna get in to grab.
And, yes, what you are saying COULD work... against a bad Zelda.

...Whoever said that Ness's smash attacks aren't easy to land is obviously forgetting about both his yo-yos, which are really amazing attacks. We said Zelda was a defensive character? Try Ness and his yo-yos. He covers himself effectively with only two moves. Even so, a running upsmash from Ness isn't nearly as dangerous as a solid hit from Lucas's Fsmash, and Zelda has the range to poke past Ness's yo-yos anyway...

hmm... maybe I should have rephrased somewhere along the lines that Lucas's attacks that will actually KILL are a lot easier to land... yo-yos are less than deadly.

...PS: it's not hard to grab Zelda. A lot of her attacks start slower than 6 frames. Ness has an excellent grab range and running grab that's quite fast.

Yes she is... ask any iceclimber's main. it's not a big issue that her attacks don't come out incredibly quickly (though they aren't slow either) because they have incredible range and priority, and little coldown lag. if you start to run at me in an attempt to grab... I can definitely get an Fsmash in before you reach me... you could either evade that, stop short of that, or shield that, but, no matter which option you chose, you are out of range for a grab afterwards AND I can pull out another attack before you can close the distance for another dash grab.
And on those occasions when you are actually right up next to Zelda, Nayru's love and Downsmash both come out faster than your grab and push you back a good distance.... in fact, at high enough damage, Dsmash will KO.

 

[DanGR]

Ness has pkfire, which is more than enough to make her approach. You can't punish it by camping, and therefore you have to approach him for it to stop. that simple.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ness has pkfire, which is more than enough to make her approach. You can't punish it by camping, and therefore you have to approach him for it to stop. that simple.

PK fire does NOT force approaches... and, Zelda can reflect it just as well as ness could ever absorb Din's fire. PLUS PKF is short range, thus forcing NESS to get close if he wants to use it.

 

[DanGR]

Ok, so they can both camp it out. I guess no-one has to approach anyone. problem solved. Time runs out and no-one wins. >_>

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ok, so they can both camp it out. I guess no-one has to approach anyone. problem solved. Time runs out and no-one wins. >_>

quit being such a ****. It's like you know nothing about the macthup but just HAVE to put your two cents in.

If you've ever PLAYED in a smash tournament, then you know that, if time runs out, the person with more lives or less damage wins. It's as simple as that. So, generally speaking, the character with the disadvantage has to approach if he wants to win. And, when it's even, then they just keep trying to bait each other and then move in for the attack.

Honestly, there are PLENTY of matchups where niether character can force the other to approach... I don't know why you are so incredulous about it.

Tou are, pretty consistenly, completely usesless here. Because all you do is whine at people who know what they are talking about because you aren't happy about something... and, half the time, you don't really have any sort of eperience with what you are talkking about yourself beyond the theoretical.

Quite simply, I'm telling you. If you can't provide reasonable input, then don't get involved. I mean, I cn be reasonably assured that anytime I set that you have posted, it will be in direct resposne to somebody else's post saying either "nu-uh... because I think something different" or "you fail at arguing" If you can't change this, and fast, I'll be forced to simply start ignoring you. Character matchup discussion crawls while you are hear because you are like a big, obstinant boulder that we have to climb across each time we try to make a point.

 

[DanGR]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954&page=60
I barely beat this very good ness user(best I've seen live or not) in a three match set, and in casuals, I demolished every zelda user there. I 3 stocked them all using my knowledge of zelda.

First off, my two cents are very relevant to the matchup. I'm trying to move the conversation y'all are having b/c it's turning into a debate about hypothetical situations instead of overall difficulty. Approaching is a very touchy subject in any matchup. I've been assuming the two characters are at an even percent. If you don't assume that, then there is no discussion about camping b/c the character without the lead has to approach.

 

[Ulevo]

Wario needs to be edited. He has a disadvantage on some extent to the taller characters in Brawl, and a severe disadvantage against a few of them. I'm too lazy to elaborate again, so please refer to this thread here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177538

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954&page=60
I barely beat this very good ness user(best I've seen live or not) in a three match set, and in casuals, I demolished every zelda user there. I 3 stocked them all using my knowledge of zelda.

First off, my two cents are very relevant to the matchup. I'm trying to move the conversation y'all are having b/c it's turning into a debate about hypothetical situations instead of overall difficulty. Approaching is a very touchy subject in any matchup. I've been assuming the two characters are at an even percent. If you don't assume that, then there is no discussion about camping b/c the character without the lead has to approach.

1) just because you can beat zelda and not beat ness as easily DOESN'T mean that ness can beat Zelda easily... unless you have knowledge about the particular matchup, then it is YOU who is being hypothetical.

2) I've played Nesses and Lucases and Zelda. I'm speaking from personal experience and explaining WHY this is the case.

3) Niether forces the other to approach. they BOTH approach depending on the situation. A good Zelda recieves absolutely no more trouble from ness than Ness does from her.

 

[TehBo49]

@ Ivan Eva:

Pika >/= Olimar
Pika > Charizard
Pika >> Captain Falcon

On the Ness vs Zelda matchup, I'm not an expert but what about PK thunder?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@ Ivan Eva:

Pika >/= Olimar
Pika > Charizard
Pika >> Captain Falcon

On the Ness vs Zelda matchup, I'm not an expert but what about PK thunder?

to force an approach? well... it doesn't really work like that. He's prone the whole time he's using it so, if Zelda DOES approach while he's doing it, she can get a free hit in...

 

[TehBo49]

What if he sent it forward in front of him? Zelda can't really approach around that. Of course she could just reflect it. What happens to PK thunder if Zelda reflects it?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

What if he sent it forward in front of him? Zelda can't really approach around that. Of course she could just reflect it. What happens to PK thunder if Zelda reflects it?

it goes straight out in the direction which it approached from... so if it were coming directly forwards, it would hit ness... of course, I wouldn't reflect it, I'd Use Farore's Wind to warp through it.

 

[TehBo49]

I mean, is it still controllable?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I mean, is it still controllable?

no it isn't. The second it's reflected, Ness loses control of it, shakes his head a few times and resumes fighting position.

 

[Nestec]

Ness doesn't have to directly hit Zelda with PKT. Snaking is useful, and Nayru's Love won't reflect the tail, IIRC. And because of how long the tail is, I'm pretty sure it will hit Zelda after Nayru's Love animation wears off.

And as soon as a Ness user sees the start-up of Farore's Wind, PKT can be aimed into the ground to cancel it.

But I disagree about PKF forcing approaches. Lol, it doesn't exactly go that far...

And about Zelda grabbing Ness, he can avoid it with his defensive yo-yos, and even with a SH nair I think, just as well as she can avoid his grabs. (I forgot who mentioned Zelda grabbing Ness though...)

And sorry about my ignorance of Lucas' Upsmash. XD

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ness doesn't have to directly hit Zelda with PKT. Snaking is useful, and Nayru's Love won't reflect the tail, IIRC. And because of how long the tail is, I'm pretty sure it will hit Zelda after Nayru's Love animation wears off.

And as soon as a Ness user sees the start-up of Farore's Wind, PKT can be aimed into the ground to cancel it.

But I disagree about PKF forcing approaches. Lol, it doesn't exactly go that far...

And about Zelda grabbing Ness, he can avoid it with his defensive yo-yos, and even with a SH nair I think, just as well as she can avoid his grabs. (I forgot who mentioned Zelda grabbing Ness though...)

And sorry about my ignorance of Lucas' Upsmash. XD

FW will hit Ness before he can cancel his projectile and put up a shield... though cancelling it is valid if Zelda is too far away to actually HIT with FW and is just using it to close distance... but, then again, at that distance, Zelda is probably either going to reflect, or dodge PKT, or just trade hits by using Din's fire

and, yeah, since she can teleport or reflect, chances are, he's not going to be able to use it effectively in the fashion being explained... I mean, PKT has it's uses... but it's definitely NOT a camping implement....

... Oh, and since DanGR was saying, "Well, who forces who to approach when neither side has damage," that would be Zelda forces ness.. since, Ness can psy magnet all he likes, but it's not like he can get negative damage.. he can't heal damage he hasn't taken.

I don't think I ever talked about Zelda grabing Ness.. I mean, she'll do it if he's close and has a sheild up, but, otherwise, Zelda would likely not grab... her throw game isn't really that stellar.

 

[DanGR]

... Oh, and since DanGR was saying, "Well, who forces who to approach when neither side has damage," that would be Zelda forces ness.. since, Ness can psy magnet all he likes, but it's not like he can get negative damage.. he can't heal damage he hasn't taken.

Why can't ness sit there and psi magnet again?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Why can't ness sit there and psi magnet again?

you could... but I mean, that ends in a stalemate really... Eventually, someone's going to get bored of the arrangement...

Zelda has the option to start shorthopping Din's Fire to close the distance so that, if ness absorbs it she can get in a dash attack for SOME damage.

Or, normally, Ness just starts approaching and airdodging as he approaches. OR, he thinks he sees an opening to attack and takes it.

Just saying... GENERALLY, the first person to approach is Ness... that's just the way it tends to go since ness has NO chance of damaging if he doesn't at least get close. Zelda just tends to try to harass his approach with dins.

Now, in all honesty, if she stops din's spamming once he gets relatively close, he'll stop once he's in PK Fire range, but, then he'll try to combo PK fire into an approach.

 

[DanGR]

I think for the Ness v Zelda matchup discussion(that I'm not going to get into) y'all should disregard Din's fire, PSI magnet, and pkfire for approaching-as options.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think for the Ness v Zelda matchup discussion(that I'm not going to get into) y'all should disregard Din's fire, PSI magnet, and pkfire for approaching-as options.

I'd have to disagree here... it's not that you CAN'T use them... it's just that, sincethe opopnent counters them, you have to excercise much more discression in HOW you use them.

Form Zelda's perspective, at least, Ness is probably going to dodge Din's more often than he absorbs it just because psy magnet is a lot laggier than a shield or air dodge, and the gut reaction is generally to avoid, rather than absorb... at least, as long as Zelda isn't using Din's at full range.

 

[Nestec]

Well if Ness has to approach, and if PKF and PKT won't work (D**n Zelda and her Nayru's Love!! >__<), I'm pretty sure a simple dash-attack can out-prioritize and outrange (?) everything Zelda can use in that situation, including NL. And if it hits, it'll even put her in the air for a little while.

And just to throw in a piece of info that you may have noticed by now, I've never participated in an actual tourney and therefore have never fought a skilled Zelda. ^__^ XD

 

[sonic 12111]

i think u messed up on something on the chart. Gaw has a huge disadvantage against ike
1 because ike can ohko gaw at about 50 pct
2 because ike has all around better range and strength against gaw
3 and last because gaw's dodge is rather smaller and slower than ike so if u make the wrong roll u might just roll into a charged eruption if ur that careless

 

[TehBo49]

Well if Ness has to approach, and if PKF and PKT won't work (D**n Zelda and her Nayru's Love!! >__<), I'm pretty sure a simple dash-attack can out-prioritize and outrange (?) everything Zelda can use in that situation, including NL. And if it hits, it'll even put her in the air for a little while.

And just to throw in a piece of info that you may have noticed by now, I've never participated in an actual tourney and therefore have never fought a skilled Zelda. ^__^ XD

She could just shield & punish that.

@ sonic 12111: I can only see this match as even at best.

 

[cutter]

i think u messed up on something on the chart. Gaw has a huge disadvantage against ike
1 because ike can ohko gaw at about 50 pct
2 because ike has all around better range and strength against gaw
3 and last because gaw's dodge is rather smaller and slower than ike so if u make the wrong roll u might just roll into a charged eruption if ur that careless

1. Killing G&W at 50% (I'm assuming with Ike's Fsmash) means nothing when your attacks are way too easily telegraphed.
2. Again, his attacks are too slow and laggy. Compare this to G&W's attacks which have long-lingering disjointed hitboxes (Nair, Fair, Ftilt, Dtilt), sheer priority (Bair, Dair), and they have almost no lag to them at all except for his Fair.
3. I don't think a competent player is going to roll into someone charging up Eruption. Also, Eruption has horrible cooldown time making it very easy to punish.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well if Ness has to approach, and if PKF and PKT won't work (D**n Zelda and her Nayru's Love!! >__<), I'm pretty sure a simple dash-attack can out-prioritize and outrange (?) everything Zelda can use in that situation, including NL. And if it hits, it'll even put her in the air for a little while.

And just to throw in a piece of info that you may have noticed by now, I've never participated in an actual tourney and therefore have never fought a skilled Zelda. ^__^ XD

hmm... dash attack is one of his better options, unless it gets shielded, then Zelda can normally attack before you can... the problem that comes when it connects though, is that Ness, of course will follow Zelda into the air if the damage is low, and, if Zelda can get onto the ground first, her Ground Vs. Air game is AMAZING. At high dmages, you'll probably wait and try to KO with Uair or PKT chase... I think we talked about these earlier.

But, yeah, ness generally approaches in one of 3 ways vs. Zelda.
Dash attack
Shorthopped Fair
PK Fire.

they all work, to an extent, but none of them are excellent.

 

[Nestec]

Aah, hmm...So would you like an agreement on neutral??

Honestly though, whoever originally decided on it being an advantage for Ness should be in here arguing, not me. X_x I'm disgracing Ness mains right now.

 

[DanGR]

I'd have to disagree here... it's not that you CAN'T use them... it's just that, sincethe opopnent counters them, you have to excercise much more discression in HOW you use them.

Form Zelda's perspective, at least, Ness is probably going to dodge Din's more often than he absorbs it just because psy magnet is a lot laggier than a shield or air dodge, and the gut reaction is generally to avoid, rather than absorb... at least, as long as Zelda isn't using Din's at full range.

In my mind, Din's is very easy to dodge/punish whether it's used at close range or not. I don't see ANY situations where it should be able to hit your opponent if he dodges it or uses PSI magnet to punish. PSIm has about(or less) cooldown than din's fire. if you're talking about Zelda countering the PSIm with a dsmash or dtilt, or somethin. It's not like pikachu's thundershock where he can just full jump>thundershock and follow up with a fair>dsmash or grab depending on how his opponent reacts. Neither has the advantage in any situation. It's a stalemate.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

In my mind, Din's is very easy to dodge/punish whether it's used at close range or not. I don't see ANY situations where it should be able to hit your opponent if he dodges it or uses PSI magnet to punish. PSIm has about(or less) cooldown than din's fire. if you're talking about Zelda countering the PSIm with a dsmash or dtilt, or somethin. It's not like pikachu's thundershock where he can just full jump>thundershock and follow up with a fair>dsmash or grab depending on how his opponent reacts. Neither has the advantage in any situation. It's a stalemate.

Psi magnet can't drop immediately if it absorbs something... just saying, Zelda can react first, though it'll rarely come up... A ness at 0 damage WON'T be using Psy magnet, airdodging is more relaiable. And a Zelda won't likely feed ness unless he has no damage or has damage so high that a little healing won't help him much (also rare)

(DanGR... you consistently underestimate Din's fire. I imagine it's becuase one of your buddies is a Zelda so you are used to him. But Din's fire is FAR FAR FAR from worthless)

Yeah.. Ness Vs. Zelda is a pretty closely fought match. It's even, or, at least, dang close to even.

Lucas is harder... but I've yet to play a lucas that makes me beleive the matchup is worse than 5.5:4.5

 

[Mr. Escalator]

PSI Magnet Lag Cancel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8uw5-b7e0s&feature=related

Very useful on campers, and very easy to do also. You should be able to get the hang of this instantly.

When you use PSIM and you absorb something, Ness goes through a quick animation. During this animation, you can cancel the PSIM by shielding or jumping.

Since you can shield and jump, you can spot dodge, roll, usmash, PKT, or double jump.

This is easy to do, so after you absorb something, just jump or shield to cancel the lag.

Taken from the list of AT's.
Ness can cancel it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Taken from the list of AT's.
Ness can cancel it.

hmm... nice... can he react offensively out of it though? Besides shieldgrabbing, that is.

even so... it's not really a big factor in the match. But, I did not know that he could do that.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Specifically, it says you can Usmash and PKT out of it. In fact, you can do anything you want OOS, making it a good defensive/offensive maneuver.

I can't believe Nestec actually is settling for neutral in this matchup. Zelda has got to be one of his easiest battles, excluding someone like Bowser. Theres a detailed matchup thread in the Ness section, yet it only has a single person so far; Zelda. Some things aren't the best, but it's certainly in-depth. Look a it when you can.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Specifically, it says you can Usmash and PKT out of it. In fact, you can do anything you want OOS, making it a good defensive/offensive maneuver.

I can't believe Nestec actually is settling for neutral in this matchup. Zelda has got to be one of his easiest battles, excluding someone like Bowser. Theres a detailed matchup thread in the Ness section, yet it only has a single person so far; Zelda. Some things aren't the best, but it's certainly in-depth. Look a it when you can.

just as there are a lack of good nesses, there is a lack of good zeldas... I'm inclined to take what I hear with a grain of salt... especially since so many zeldas aren't used to a matchup where they can't camp lke they normally do... but those that can handle not camping express little to no special trouble against ness.

 

[GodAtHand]

^ Thats me and I have been in a few tournaments, and I have fought a few Ness's (what is the plural of ness anyways?) and as long as I don't Din's fire too much they are no problem.

 

[TehBo49]

Plural of Ness = Ness players/mains

 

[Nestec]

Lol, I don't know what to think anymore. I'm just gonna stick to playing the game...>__<

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

now that we have, for the most part, come to a consensus that Zelda = Ness... what next...
Zelda vs. iceclibers howabout. I'd always heard it's an awful matchup for the icies because she's so dang hard for them to grab and her attacks ability to crowd control and hit both of them causes major problems

 

[IvanEva]

A quick pardon: I probably won't be touching the chart until after the ToS5 tournament thingy here in Ottawa (July 5th).

Pikachu >> Falcon? I can see that. PIKAAAA! *Captain Lightning Rod goes flying upwards*

 

[TehBo49]

What about the other ones I mentioned?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

A quick pardon: I probably won't be touching the chart until after the ToS5 tournament thingy here in Ottawa (July 5th).

Pikachu >> Falcon? I can see that. PIKAAAA! *Captain Lightning Rod goes flying upwards*

okay.. but, don't forget the Zelda vs. Ness change.

lucas... bah.. it can stay his advatage for now... I don't find it more than a 5.5:4.5 advatage (which most charat would call "even") but, I don't have enough proof to sway the current ranking...

but, for Ness, it has been done.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Erm?
I don't think Zelda/Ness mains have come to a consensus. You personally changed Nestec's mind, but the overall community thinks it's certainly in his favor. The matchup thread of theirs even has it as a large advantage. It's sort of over the top, but they certainly feel it's in his favor.

I even went to your matchup thread, and you guys hardly agree on anything. Two people think Ness is even with Zelda, apparently; You and slyfer, and slyfer thinks Wolf is her hardest matchup. You guys havent even discussed him really, just that you guys have come to a consensus that Zelda is more than Dins Fire. Hmm, thats nice, but Ness is more than just Psi Magnet. S2 seems to think otherwise, and probably a few others. Overall, it seems to them that G&W, Marth, Lucas, and Ness are the hardest matchups.

sort of on the topic of Zelda, I'm sort of moving towards G&W having a large advantage here.
and Marth/MK should be switched for G&W, as things are looking. MK has a slight advantage, we've determined, yet it's mostly even. Marth is definitely not a harder matchup. So either they're both even, or they switch places. It's our consensus.

I'd say Marth is like the lower tiered MK. He's very aggressive, and has quick attacks with good range. Marth however unlike MK does not have many safe kill moves, hence I'd think he would be significantly easier to deal with if you know how to deal with MK.

Marth has a pretty nasty blind spot below him. His D-air is an awful attack in Brawl, due to the undesirable landing lag, and the spike being situational. None of his other attacks prove any reliable hitboxes below him. Because Marth can be difficult to D-throw to D-smash, it's worth U-throwing him.

Eh, I'll leave it as that for now.

...

IMO if G&W has even the slightest advantage vs MK, which is the conclusion we seemed to have come to, then Marth is an even better matchup for G&W. Marth in many ways is a lot like MK, but he lacks kill moves that are safe on block, and he has a more one-tracked recovery.