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Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

Mattnumbers

Smash Master
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Neko, until we actually make the board there probably won't be too much coordination. If we have matchups posted, you can just go through the ones for your main and argue against any you do not agree with.


It would be GREAT if someone could make me a chart so I can have something that looks ok in the thread. I'll make the thread regardless once I get back to my house, for now we can just list matchups as they arise and convert it to a chart once someone has made one.
 

Machiavelli.CF

Ivy of the West
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This was the set of singles stages from the Brawl+ stage discussion thread...pretty much

Brawl+
SINGLES STAGES
current (8-13) nightly

Starter
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2


Starter/Counter
WarioWare Inc.
Castle Siege
Halberd
Rumble Falls Online pratice stage
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair (can be changed if needed)

Counter/Banned
(could use some changes to ensure legality)
Corneria
Yoshi's Island [Melee]
Jungle Japes
Green Greens
PictoChat

-----
Banned Untill Coded/changed
***these are some of the stages i have heard talk of editing, or i think might be able to be legal if changed (ex: freezing ect.) ***

Pirate Ship - Change water/freeze
Green Hill Zone - non attackable parts/freeze
Skyworld -
Basic overall plan:

Port Town Aero Dive - freeze/car damage reduction
Distant Planet - rain/ freeze
Spear Pillar -
Basic overall plan:

Big Blue - slow down
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 - Camera/Boundry changes
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 - Misc. ideas
Mario Circuit - Camera/Boundry changes
Bridge of Eldin - Camera/Boundry changes
Onett - Camera/Boundry changes, car damage/KB reduction

BANNED
75m
Hanenbow
New Pork City
Shadow Moses Island
Summit
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Temple[/quote]
 

crazycrackers

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
318
Location
Los Angleles, California
^ Speaking of stages, I'm curious as to what people think of Jungle Japes?

If I had to choose, I would personally have it CP rather than banned. But my friend and I were wondering what other people thought of it.

Edit: Also, did the bombs on Green Greens ever get lowered knockback?
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
@Dantarion: Haha, well said.

Also, how many times must I say that this game is SO MUCH MORE than precision? This isn't about showing off tech skill! You could have the fastest fingers in the world and be able to execute frame-perfect ATs consistently and still suck and still lose to someone who can't execute a single AT but knows the game itself.
This is true about any game...even melee. The point was trying to help out with some possible causes as to why the game is EZ. IIRC, people do complain about it and I felt that this is a small part but w/e
Going with the golfing analogy, the buffer isn't the equivalent of hole size. It's more the equivalent of having the option to wear gloves so you have a better grip on your club.
I actually think that the golf grip would be equivalent to putting grips on your controller.
It's like fingerpainting and saying you're a better painter than Da Vinci or Michelangelo 'cause they cheated by using a brush.
Finger painting and brush painting are two different styles of art
I'm sorry, Kupo, but I don't think the WBR is about to suddenly change its mind on this one. Looks like we're just a fan-game group after all. You should probably stop playing Brawl+, I guess. No competition here.
Confirmed, even though I'm sure that was sarcasm.
I already quit months ago.
I wasn't dissing the code, I was just promoting an idea on how the code can be used in a competitive manor. Obviously WiFi might need more buffer, obviously no one cares what buffer you use at home, but I think that in the Tourney venues, the range of the buffer system could hurt competition slightly. I guess it will be up to the TOs.
Mouse sensitivity doesn't actually apply to an argument for buffer but this argument is over so whatever.
Yea your right. Higher sensitivity makes you faster if you can control it while the difference in buffer produces the same result.
I would just like to point out that if we had to we could just have a certain buffer range as part of the tourney rules, that way you wouldn't have to switch codes.
This was my whole point of the discussion. :/


I can't keep up with the debate cause I won't get my power cord for a couple days so that is all I'm saying atm. I was just trying to prod some intelligent discussion on the subject but all I got was some people who don't really know about golf (I guess I won't ever bring that up as an analogy again)
 

Machiavelli.CF

Ivy of the West
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^ Speaking of stages, I'm curious as to what people think of Jungle Japes?

If I had to choose, I would personally have it CP rather than banned. But my friend and I were wondering what other people thought of it.

Edit: Also, did the bombs on Green Greens ever get lowered knockback?
if the water changes are implimented then it would be a cp
right now im not sure if it is cp or banned, i might lean towards cp

and i dont beleive we can edit stages to that extent yet
 

Machiavelli.CF

Ivy of the West
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Bombs never got lowered kb, but they spawn slower

And really, the "banned until coded" section is kinda useless, seeing as how we wont be updating for a while...[mafioso_accent]fuhgeddaboudit[/mafioso_accent]
some can be fixed easily... some not so much
 

RPGsFTW

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
754
I wholeheartedly disagree with that Skyworld set-up.

As someone said before I think it should be like this:

Skyworld:
- Permanent broken top.
- RIGHT part of the LEFT platform should STAY broken. The two side platforms like that should be either permanent or able to regenerate slowly.
- Whole main bottom area CANNOT break. Good that way.
- Moving platform at the bottom to be permanent.

Much less of another FD.

Onett:
- Keep the two middle platforms held down. Probably a lot less camping this way.
- Maybe freeze the cars, if possible?
 

Machiavelli.CF

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I wholeheartedly disagree with that Skyworld set-up.

As someone said before I think it should be like this:

Skyworld:
- Permanent broken top.
- RIGHT part of the LEFT platform should STAY broken. The two side platforms like that should be either permanent or able to regenerate slowly.
- Whole main bottom area CANNOT break. Good that way.
- Moving platform at the bottom to be permanent.

Much less of another FD.

Onett:
- Keep the two middle platforms held down. Probably a lot less camping this way.
- Maybe freeze the cars, if possible?
maybe the bottom (main) platfrom should be hitable...a little uniqueness cuz ground attacks will have hitlag if they miss, making them a bit longer

i think onett's middle platforms are ok, not much camping on such a small platform, and ive never heard of camping in the middle of the stage before...lol
plus, they will go away eventually
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
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Chicago
I would like to see the TOP of skyworld perma broken.

The moving platform at the bottom unhittable (don't really care what happens, this is the least of my concerns)

this
- RIGHT part of the LEFT platform should STAY broken. The two side platforms like that should be either permanent or able to regenerate slowly. I prefer permanent
Id also remove the sloped one. (leaving only the bottom 3 straight connecting platforms)


This would make the stage like a odd version of norfair (flat surface to fight on) with 2 sides hanging out)

However, unlike norfair, it would be smaller and with no hazards, probably a great stage for possibly a CP/neutral instead of a CP/ban
 

Shadic

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Why keep the right part of the left platform? It's just something to bounce off of, and you can't jump through it.

Removing the sloped platform would make it that much worse, plus ****s up tethers.
 

RPGsFTW

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
754
Why keep the right part of the left platform? It's just something to bounce off of, and you can't jump through it.

Removing the sloped platform would make it that much worse, plus ****s up tethers.
^This. And the right side of the left area platform sticks out just enough to have people camp under it creating the dreaded "cave of life" effect.

And I say the two middle platforms at Onett should go because they only aid camping at the corners in the middle. If it was open in the middle, people couldn't camp right there, or at least not as much. And those platforms aren't that small. Nor do they go away by themselves. If I remember correctly, a character must stand on one of the two, if not JUST the top platform, for a set amount of time until they are to fall down. And if you're camping at the bottom middle corners, near the buildings, there is no reason to knock those two platforms down when they're covering you.
 

Swordplay

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you'd get rid of the slope thing...

Plus would it really F-up tethers if you kept that one platform that hangs out?
 

RPGsFTW

Smash Ace
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Messages
754
How to fallthrough platforms aid campers exactly?
Same idea as WarioWare. It's still a platforms that limits a characters ability to get to the bottom where one might be camping. It doesn't matter that you can fall through them if you land on some on the way down or get hit by spaced attacks through the platforms. Those options will allow a camper to be safer as long as they're available.
 

Mattnumbers

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Same idea as WarioWare. It's still a platforms that limits a characters ability to get to the bottom where one might be camping. It doesn't matter that you can fall through them if you land on some on the way down or get hit by spaced attacks through the platforms. Those options will allow a camper to be safer as long as they're available.
WW is a neutral. Fallthrough platforms do absolutely nothing besides let you stand at an elevate level and block projectiles coming in from the top, since you can fall straight through them if you want to.

Not to mention that all you have to do to knock down the ones in onett is jump on the top one twice.
 

RPGsFTW

Smash Ace
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Messages
754
WW is a neutral. Fallthrough platforms do absolutely nothing besides let you stand at an elevate level and block projectiles coming in from the top, since you can fall straight through them if you want to.

Not to mention that all you have to do to knock down the ones in onett is jump on the top one twice.
WarioWare could be either Neutral/Counter last time I checked. Whatever the TO decides.

At those two stages, at least, the platforms are just lined up poorly, I'd say. I think it's much better without the middle two platforms, but whatever then.
 

Mattnumbers

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It's Neutral at BTL2, and it was argued to be neutral in the stage discussion thread, but no one updated it anyways.

So no, it is a neutral.

Neutrals are:
FD
BF
SV
YI
WW
PS2
LC

Except WWR replaced WW in doubles.
 

Mattnumbers

Smash Master
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Actually there WAS a debate on it and it was pretty one sided in my opinion.

We can discuss it again here if you guys want to I can pull out the same points.
 

GHNeko

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WW is only CP worthy in Doubles. If aything, Counter/Banned.

It's a completely neutral singles though. It's only a tad bit smaller than standard stages, but its easier to recover onto WW.
 

MK26

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http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
the logic for warioware was that everybody can abuse it equally, so its balanced.

ww is neutral in singles. end of story

doubles? iunno. id think that a bowser/ganon/dk/ike match would get cramped, but that's just an invitation to cp your character...

same with wwr in singles. 'cp or get gRaped', or is it not worth it?

perspnally, i think they both deserve a chance - you just have to know the stage
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
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Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
Why would you freeze the Onett cars. Maybe a damage reduction, but they discourage camping off the side AND the bottom middle.
 

slimpyman

Smash Journeyman
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Boothwyn, PA
i can really say Lucas z-air is dumb as heck (in its current state) if you get hit by that it leads to an instant upsmash, or whatever youd like. (unless you tech >_< )
 

Iamthemovie

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
341
What do you guys think of the friction values of the characters? They all seem to slide way too **** far for some reason. I'm not sure if it's because of the momentum boost but Captain Falcon slides like a mofo.
 

GHNeko

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Why would you freeze the Onett cars. Maybe a damage reduction, but they discourage camping off the side AND the bottom middle.
I actually want to speed up the Cars and enlarge the bounderires. <_<

Cars coming more frequently would seriously help the blast zone and center zone camping. :3
 

MK26

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why cant we figure out how the stages go now before we figure out how to fix them? That 'no discussing future changes' rule should be extended to stages, especially since we dont really have the have the capacity to change many of these things just yet...
 

RPGsFTW

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I actually want to speed up the Cars and enlarge the bounderires. <_<

Cars coming more frequently would seriously help the blast zone and center zone camping. :3
With knocked down middle platforms as well, cough. ;)
 

Revven

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What do you guys think of the friction values of the characters? They all seem to slide way too **** far for some reason. I'm not sure if it's because of the momentum boost but Captain Falcon slides like a mofo.
Have you even played the latest set yet? Captain Falcon's friction was already changed and he is the only one who desperately needed a friction change...

But again, this discussion thread is not for any future changes of any kind, it is called TACTICAL for a reason people. >_<
 

RPGsFTW

Smash Ace
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754
Theres no point in knocking down the platforms in the middle, especially if cars show up more often.
Why is that?

If the cars are sped up AND the middle platforms stay they give characters with counters, definitely Ike, a nice, powerful counter attack to use while camping at the bottom where there are all kinds of platforms and walls for safety/camping.
 

DarkDragoon

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The sandbag on WWR bugs me. CPUs get distracted by it =[.
-DD
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
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The sandbag on WWR bugs me. CPUs get distracted by it =[.
-DD
Doesn't change how tasty of a stage it is against people :V

The sandbag adds so much to the stage. The obvious thing being projectile defense if you can keep control of it, but also strategies in abusing hitlag for both players. Those extra frames can either get you punished by giving your opponent more time to properly do so, or allow you to punish more effectively with a longer lasting hitbox.

So much better than a completely flat stage... We already have one of those (with worse ledges, but flat stage is flat :V).

If you don't think Smashville is the best stage, you have problems. If you don't go for that balloon every time in friendlies you have problems. v:
 

Rudra

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q4neko'sright

at least, in singles...

>: D

Also, Marth is officially broken on BF. Techchasing someone on a platform with an auto-tipper fsmash = OMGWTF
Couldnt that be done on BF/YI on Melee? lol
 
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