Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[thesage]

Ness combos MK nicely. Bair combos into itself nicely.

I haven't ever played any good mk's in brawl+ so =/

 

[GHNeko]

The only way to counter God is with another God!

...So...Simna's Ness?

 

[Rudra]

A Marth is fine too.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

lol...make ike a good mk counter
he's one of the ppl who can outrange all mk's attacks

 

[dabridge]

I thought a lot of heavyweights already countered MK in previous versions. Did something change?

wat

 

[GHNeko]

heavy weights are easy to combo. MK is good at combos.
heavy weights are easy to gimp (sans Snake). MK is good at gimping.
Heavy weights and MK have near similar priority and range (with MK coming out on top in a slight majority of occasions) but MK generally has less lag giving him the advantage. <_<

MK > heavy weights (cept Snake)

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

heavy weights are easy to combo. MK is good at combos.
heavy weights are easy to gimp (sans Snake). MK is good at gimping.
Heavy weights and MK have near similar priority and range (with MK coming out on top in a slight majority of occasions) but MK generally has less lag giving him the advantage. <_<

MK > heavy weights (cept Snake)

but still Ike isn't completely helpless

 

[CloneHat]

but still Ike isn't completely helpless

But MK is faster, and can get Ike off stage; if Ike goes off stage he'll die.

The same rule does not apply to Metaknight.

 

[GHNeko]

Ike is easy to gimp and has more than enough lag in his attacks for MK to punish. Ike might have a fairly nice match up against MK (6-4 at best, imo) but who knows.

EDIT: Ffff ninja'd

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Ike is easy to gimp and has more than enough lag in his attacks for MK to punish. Ike might have a fairly nice match up against MK (6-4 at best, imo) but who knows.

EDIT: Ffff ninja'd

his range is his main advantage in the matchup...but who really is a good ike counter?
we should make it an even bigger counter xD if we pinpoint who it is

 

[timothyung]

MK is light. Heavy weights are good at killing.

Heavy weights>MK

Spoiler

Really, MK's design makes him good. Amazing recovery, range, speed, and priority... We should nerf his priority to zero so even jabs can go through his sword

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Spoiler

Really, MK's design makes him good. Amazing recovery, range, speed, and priority... We should nerf his priority to zero so even jabs can go through his sword

make some of mk's moves have no flinch for part of it
and take out alr

 

[Mattnumbers]

Thats the same idea I had timothyung.

Sadly prority doesn't work that way.

NOW what I want to do is make his sword a hurtbox, which would really hurt his priority. That and take away his TP.

He would still be good with his **** moveset even after that, but I think he wouldn't be top 5. Depends how much of a difference it really makes cause it's hard to tell without trying it out.

 

[Demacrez]

Make all of MK's attacks do 0 damage, 0 KB, 0 BKB, and 0 Flinch. There, evened out character.

 

[timothyung]

Actually, what determines priority? Damage? Or is there a value? If there's a value, what's the lowest value possible?

Oh, and Ike has his awesome side B, and dair to fsmash combo. The match-up shouldn't be very bad.

 

[Mattnumbers]

In the air priority is determined by whoever hits the other persons hurtbox first. It's that simple.

On the ground it's damage (and maybe KB too I'm not sure though), as well as disjointedness/transcendence.

 

[GHNeko]

That makes me wonder. No one talks about Ike, despite being the most popular character at release. <_<

How does this guy even fair?

 

[Mattnumbers]

That makes me wonder. No one talks about Ike, despite being the most popular character at release. <_<

How does this guy even fair?

You press forward and A in the air.

Spoiler

yes I just did that

 

[timothyung]

But... I use Wiimote held sideways D:

OK now someone please tell me what does the fourth number of the flag mean. For example,

Falcon Kick
-Flags changed from xxx1xxxx->xxx3xxxx

 

[GHNeko]

You press forward and A in the air.

Spoiler

yes I just did that

........................................................................................................................................................wow


Okay moving on. How does Ike even stand in comparison to the rest of the cast. He seems to be completely over shadowed by everyone, like Olimar.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I really don't know, the only Ike main I can think of is xSilvenx

 

[timothyung]

Is he that bad?
Huge range, OK recovery, killing really early, ultra good tech chasing game with his side B, B edgeguard, and guaranteed dair>fsmash combo on non-floaties...

I think I second Ike. He might become my main some time later.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Actually, what determines priority? Damage? Or is there a value? If there's a value, what's the lowest value possible?

Oh, and Ike has his awesome side B, and dair to fsmash combo. The match-up shouldn't be very bad.

range and damage are the main thing.

 

[GHNeko]

OK recovery is easily debatable. Range means little if the lag/winddown is proportionate (imo), as you see Ike's abusing their fastest attacks (Jab, Nair, Bair) V:

It's just that his lack of exposure for the longest time puts him in a position where no one can accurately gauge how good he is.

Priority comes down to Range, How fast the first hitbox comes out, damage, and if it has TP or not.

 

[timothyung]

When I say priority, I mean its ability to go through stuff.
I believe aerial attacks have priority too, seeing how some aerials can cancel projectiles, but some can't.

 

[GHNeko]

That's Transcendent Priority. Aerials that have that can't clank projectiles, but go through everything.

 

[Shadic]

A Marth is fine too.

...Was that reference intentional?

As for Ike... I think one of the best things he has is the jab. Which is sad, because other characters (Snake) have far better ones.

Granted, I don't play much Ike these days.

 

[GHNeko]

You're obviously forgetting about Nair.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

i say ike has the best jab out of anyone.... snake is in 2nd place
pretty sure it beats snake's in power, range, kb, and all that
i just think snake's comes out a bit faster

 

[Shadic]

You're obviously forgetting about Nair.

And Bair, but I was thinking more about his ground game. He really doesn't have that much.

 

[timothyung]

But IIRC Marth's fair beats Samus' non-charged cannon shot, but cannot cancel a fully charged one.
And a fully charged cannon shot can't have TP, as it clanks with another cannon shot.

 

[RPGsFTW]

The week before the 5.0 Official came out I had some of my fellow Vegas Smashers playing Brawl+ singles and doubles with me. I haven't gotten SK92 to play yet, I'd like to see his Brawl+ Falco, but I did get another of Vegas' players, Z. We played one 1v1, Wario (me) vs Ike (Z) at FD. It was a really close match, but I lost. Ike jab cancels -> grab -> throw -> attack. Nair -> Bair, etc.

We later played some doubles, him and I on a team against everyone else who wanted to play. If I remember correctly, we won every game but one or two?

The cool thing was that he was loving Brawl+. He said he'd try to hold them at least as side tournaments here with our UNLV tournaments.

 

[GHNeko]

But how good of a player is Z? How well does he place? How long has he played SMash? Depending on the player, it may or may not help how Ike stands out compared to the roster.

 

[Glick]

(sorry I posted this in the discussion thread also)
I'm having a B+ smashfest at my house tomorrow.

we're going to be using the new build and we are doing a live stream.
So if you're interested in seeing the new build in action, here's your chance.

I'll post the link in the crew thread tomorrow when the stream goes up.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthrea...237803&page=38

It'll probably go up around 5.

 

[RPGsFTW]

He places well consistently, here in Vegas. He mains Pikachu, but likes to pick other characters, such as Ike, Fox, etc in tournaments as well. But due to vBrawl not having character viability, he usually ends up playing Pikachu later on in the Winner's brackets.

From All Is Balls:

 

[GHNeko]

A mario in power rankings? lolwut.

Anywho, That's some interesting info, and his general ability and the fact that he already uses ike could add to the fact that he's just making Ike look good. But who knows.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

i think sonic is one of hte most underpowered characters atm
why not change his arial momentum to how is should be and make his fair have the 365 degree angle?

 

[zxeon]

A ton of aerial momentum doesn't do his crappy moves any favors(I'm looking at you Uair). We tried high momentum on Sonic but it didn't work out.

 

[leafgreen386]

That being said about these platforms is about the same as almost every other platform in this game. And the platforms don't take but a second to come back.

I know the platforms don't fall down that fast as I just tested it a little bit. Using a Bowser, a heavy in case it matters, I jumped between the two platforms slowly until they fell. I made a complete landing after every jump. It took about 12 jumps, give or take 1-2, each and every time.

I also did a secondary test with just the top and bottom platforms separate. This time it took about 7-8 jumps, on the top or bottom only, before the sign knocked the platforms down.

After the sign landed on the ground, it took a little over seven and a half seconds before the platforms reappeared, tested with a stopwatch.

The stage would be wider, with a more open, nice looking, less campy feel without the platforms, I think.

You obviously don't understand the stage at all. You make the platforms fall by standing on them. Not landing on them. Standing on them. Or running. Or attacking. Or whatever-ing. You just have to be on the platform for a certain length of time and it'll break. More characters on it will make it break faster, and I'm not sure if the time it breaks in is weight dependent or not. Either way, if someone is camping below them just jump on the top platform and wait for a moment for it to break, and then jump off before it does so your foe can't take advantage of it. If they try to jump up after you, since you're on the top platform and not the second to the top, you should be able to get away from there before they get to you, and you'll have then successfully lured them out from their hiding place.

Furthermore, the van is amazing on this level. It has set knockback, so if you get hit by it in the middle at any percent, you'll never die from it. If you get hit by it on the sides, though, you can potentially die at 0. I know someone was talking about freezing it earlier in the topic, but the van is totally legit.

When I say priority, I mean its ability to go through stuff.
I believe aerial attacks have priority too, seeing how some aerials can cancel projectiles, but some can't.

Specials work differently from normal moves. They can clash with aerials (and of course can also outprioritize/be outprioritized by aerials).

i think sonic is one of hte most underpowered characters atm
why not change his arial momentum to how is should be and make his fair have the 365 degree angle?

You mean "let's nerf sonic." Good idea. Not. Sonic is fine right now, and if he got anything, it should be the usmash spike again. He doesn't need crazy momentum, since it actually hurts him more than helps.

PS. My next post will be my 3000th. Brace for epic.

 

[Isatis]

You mean "let's nerf sonic." Good idea. Not. Sonic is fine right now, and if he got anything, it should be the usmash spike again. He doesn't need crazy momentum, since it actually hurts him more than helps.

I've been against the usmash stage spike from day 1, and there are other things that could be used to buff Sonic too.