Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[SymphonicSage12]

Yeah, that is a good point, bridge. If you guys could fix it so that it isn't followed by the camera, that would be good :D

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

now whoever thinks it should be banned...shut up...now
and how bout that thar Onett
speed it up?
increase its boundries...
done! legal!
cp

all this is possible right now isnt it?

 

[Skieth]

I don't claim to be very good at brawl or brawl+, but I have noticed a problem. A friend of mine plays vBrawl competitively. And we have a little game where I get the new brawl+ and he comes over and breaks it. This time, I found that he could juggle me almost infinitely as squirtle. Now I suck for sure, but I know what DI is, and I'm almost certain I was locked down for the 10 hit ride.

Now, I'm a big fan of brawl+. But I'm a little concerned with how easy it is for some characters to combo the same move over and over. Sonics uair, c.falcon's running attack(possibly a bad example), squirtle's uair.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed this?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

You just have Bad DI. and SDI. Trust me.

Although to an extent you are right, actually.

but captain falcon's dash attack doesn't combo into itself. at all.


But the WBR is planning on raising hitlag and lowering hitstun.

 

[stingers]

You just have Bad DI. and SDI. Trust me.

Although to an extent you are right, actually.

but captain falcon's dash attack doesn't combo into itself. at all.


But the WBR is planning on raising hitlag and lowering hitstun.

...In 6 months

 

[SymphonicSage12]

True you make me feel sad now

 

[Skieth]

I'm no expert at DIing, but I was granted several seconds to explore various types of DI. Something is definitely amiss. Raising hitlag and lowering hitstun might resolve this.

 

[MK26]

What character were you using, pray tell

 

[SymphonicSage12]

If you're using fox, captain falcon, falco, or a fattie, too bad. They are going to get combo'd easily no matter what we do.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

...In 6 months

more so; around 3
i think...

Fatties need somthing special....
somthing that isnt character specific for hte most part... (the fatter the more [somthing] affects the caracter.)
like.. fatties suffer less sheild stun?
and when the ledge game is redone, would it be bad to give the fatties the biggest grab range?
idk.. jsut tossing out random ideas. anyone got any others?

 

[Skieth]

I was juggled as marth against sonic and pikachu against squirtle....I think

 

[Skieth]

But I almost always play as c.falcon so perhaps the problem just seems worse than it is

 

[SymphonicSage12]

>.> pikachu and squirtle and sonic have really good combo moves that are supposed to combo well.

Let me guess: the sonic combo'd you with uair. The pikachu combo'd you with uair or fair.

the squirtle combo'd you with uair.

 

[Skieth]

I was pikachu. And yes, with sonic and squirtle it was both uair.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Exactly. Those have been good combo moves since vbrawl. And they're supposed to be that way. You seriously just need to DI well. I don't know what else to tell you D:

 

[Skieth]

The only reason I finally broke out was because my damage was too high to be manageable and I got knocked out of range. Sure it required some skill to keep me in that lock but a 0 - 40/50 isn't really that enjoyable.


Maybe how long you hitstun should be damage dependant? idk

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I was pikachu. And yes, with sonic and squirtle it was both uair.

try just holding the controll stick forward towards the edge of the stage and maybe add some variation, i dunno, they ARE naturally good jugglers.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

it already is damage dependent. a 1 damage move has nearly no stun compared to a move that does 25%.

 

[Skieth]

I meant - the lower damage you have the less hitstun you recieve.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Oh. That would be broken for someone like jigglypuff. >.> In all honesty it's a terrible idea. Sorry D:

 

[Plum]

more so; around 3
i think...

Fatties need somthing special....
somthing that isnt character specific for hte most part... (the fatter the more [somthing] affects the caracter.)
like.. fatties suffer less sheild stun?
and when the ledge game is redone, would it be bad to give the fatties the biggest grab range?
idk.. jsut tossing out random ideas. anyone got any others?

the thought of DDD having less shield stun... ah the smell of broken...

the only thing they could really use is the physics revamp in the months from now. assuming that goes in the right direction, heavies will be ******. even as it stands now the heavies **** hard in the right hands (<3 DDD)

 

[Skieth]

Its the same idea behind no stale moves. A low percentages its extremely easy to combo a move into itself. (utilts for half the cast). But no stale moves is almost negated by extreme hitstun (which was needed, I admit). Increased vulnerability while at max health makes no sense. IDK what you mean about jigglypuff, but something to the effect of my idea above would certainly help those of us who play brawl+ but suck. Although, I know we aren't the target demographic of brawl+.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Don't suck then? Idk what else to tell you. It's a sucky idea that wouldn't solve anything.



and they'll be lowering the hitstun and increasing the hitlag.

Did you know what vbrawl has the same amount of hitstun as Melee? vBrawl's is just cancelleable.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

the thought of DDD having less shield stun... ah the smell of broken...

well there can obvoiusly be acceptions xP

and it wouldn't be too much of a change
maybe just increase sheildstun for them short peepulz

 

[SymphonicSage12]

well there can obvoiusly be acceptions xP

and it wouldn't be too much of a change
maybe just increase sheildstun for them short peepulz

1. exceptions, not acceptions

2. Fatties are fine. It's a freaking character weakness. Just get over it!

 

[Skieth]

Well something was definitely needed :

In vbrawl the victim of a falcon kick can attack captain falcon while he's still doing the same kick.
Basically, you can be hit by a move and retaliate before the attacker is done attacking! Which is so stupid it makes my head hurt.

I can't really ***** anymore until I see how the hitlag and hitstun works out. Things are getting better; the lastest release of brawl+ has significantly improved the same-move-combo-ability over the version I was playing with before the summer. Several friendships were broken D:

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

1. exceptions, not acceptions

2. Fatties are fine. It's a freaking character weakness. Just get over it!

1. Thank you professor

2. i have gotten over it im just tossing out ideas, chill.
i'm a very very skilled Ike user, im very familiar with fatty weaknesses

 

[leafgreen386]

The only reason I finally broke out was because my damage was too high to be manageable and I got knocked out of range. Sure it required some skill to keep me in that lock but a 0 - 40/50 isn't really that enjoyable.


Maybe how long you hitstun should be damage dependant? idk

Hitstun is based on knockback. The further you're sent flying, the more hitstun you will receive. As such, higher damage already indirectly increases your hitstun by increasing the distance you're sent flying. Changing hitstun to also be directly based on percent would be extremely awkward and would probably just create more infinites (or near infinites) at high percentages with moves that have a relatively low knockback growth curve. You'd nerf combos at low percents when they're supposed to be effective, and you'd buff them at high percents when you should be comboing less. What you're talking about would require us to completely redo the entire balancing of the game, because you are changing one of the fundamental ways that the game works. It's bad enough that we're already talking about lowering hitstun and will need to figure out how to make all that work. What you're suggesting would essentially make any work done so far thoroughly useless, since the entire way you play the game would be different now.

 

[Revven]

But the WBR is planning on raising hitlag

Hitlag was already raised...

 

[stingers]

yeah use lucas and use nair and its really noticeable

and people DI out of it easier so you can chain nairs

 

[Mattnumbers]

Yeah, I swear Lucas's Nair has ridiculous hitlag. I'm used to it by now but at first it was really weird.

Also, I played Ike for a while at my last smashfest, and although I know that this isn't worth that much since I only played him for a couple hours, but he seems like he is fine to me. His Fair is really good, and he still has the same range and priority as vBrawl just with a lot less lag on his aerials. I do feel he might be near the bottom of the cast (hard to really tell though), but I can tell that he is at least viable.

He's pretty fun too, I plan to play him more often.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Yeah, I swear Lucas's Nair has ridiculous hitlag. I'm used to it by now but at first it was really weird.

Also, I played Ike for a while at my last smashfest, and although I know that this isn't worth that much since I only played him for a couple hours, but he seems like he is fine to me. His Fair is really good, and he still has the same range and priority as vBrawl just with a lot less lag on his aerials. I do feel he might be near the bottom of the cast (hard to really tell though), but I can tell that he is at least viable.

He's pretty fun too, I plan to play him more often.

i was looking at his pac a while ago
hes rediculously strong compared to alot of ppl
like sonic xD

he's a little kid. it doesnt make sence xP

 

[Mattnumbers]

I'm very confused.

Are you talking about Ike, or Lucas? Only my first sentence was directed at Lucas, the rest was about Ike..........

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I'm very confused.

Are you talking about Ike, or Lucas? Only my first sentence was directed at Lucas, the rest was about Ike..........

i meant lucas >o<

i wouldnt say ike is too low, but he is kinda low,
i say give him a bit more speed on some moves...
god... a faster quick draw would be amazing <.>
its so good for tech chacing

 

[Revven]

Ike already has faster wind-down on the swing hit on Quick Draw... that makes it have more than enough uses as it is.

Again though, talking about buffing X character is not what this thread is for... -.-

 

[Mattnumbers]

I wasn't saying he needs buffs, I was just talking about how he is in the current build.

 

[Revven]

I wasn't saying he needs buffs, I was just talking about how he is in the current build.

I was mostly talking to mch lol

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Ike already has faster wind-down on the swing hit on Quick Draw... that makes it have more than enough uses as it is.

Again though, talking about buffing X character is not what this thread is for... -.-

then what thread is?

and yeah ur right, quick draw doesnt need a buff, but i wouldnt mind more speed [in other moves] or a slightly higher midair jump

are there any moves in the game that arent tech-able? ganon's choke can be teched now iirc. so much for a special move being special xP jk

 

[Plum]

then what thread is?

and yeah ur right, quick draw doesnt need a buff, but i wouldnt mind more speed [in other moves] or a slightly higher midair jump

are there any moves in the game that arent tech-able? ganon's choke can be teched now iirc. so much for a special move being special xP jk

The general idea is that no discussion of the sort happens for now.
This build is supposed to sit for months, let a solid metagame develop first, and when time roles around for the next set (again, many months from now) they may open things back up for how severe flaws in a character's metagame can be fixed. And when that day roles around I do want them flaws to be **** severe :V No more of that "this is a slight problem I want to deal with, but other people have shown to be able to deal with" kind of crap :V

 

[WheelOfFish]

Ike is pretty good. The problem is that we have so many characters that are too good.

I've brought this up a couple of times, but still. DK is said to be truly balanced, but we're buffing a bunch of characters beyond DK-goodness, and leaving already great characters above DK's level. I'd say Ike is slightly below DK right now, but he seems so much worse because so many characters are better.