Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[Roxas215]

anyone else think mario is so fun?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

The general idea is that no discussion of the sort happens for now.
This build is supposed to sit for months, let a solid metagame develop first, and when time roles around for the next set (again, many months from now) they may open things back up for how severe flaws in a character's metagame can be fixed. And when that day roles around I do want them flaws to be **** severe :V No more of that "this is a slight problem I want to deal with, but other people have shown to be able to deal with" kind of crap :V

beleive it or not, complaining doesnt disable metagame from developing.
your post made it sound like its hurting somthing. or that its a big problem

 

[shanus]

beleive it or not, complaining doesnt disable metagame from developing.
your post made it sound like its hurting somthing. or that its a big problem

no, it just raises the quality of posting and contributions significantly. A lot more is accomplished.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Ike is pretty good. The problem is that we have so many characters that are too good.

I've brought this up a couple of times, but still. DK is said to be truly balanced, but we're buffing a bunch of characters beyond DK-goodness, and leaving already great characters above DK's level. I'd say Ike is slightly below DK right now, but he seems so much worse because so many characters are better.

Well, I must say I partially agree with you up to an extent.
But then again, his Spike is BEAST. I often combo into it, very easily.
Much more easily than with Marth in fact.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I have the same fears as WoF, many characters really WERE balanced, but have now fallen behind the curve and into mediocrity. We really need to pick a model level of goodness and try and get characters to that specific level, that way we don't keep moving characters to be better and better and better.

 

[Doval]

Truth is we could go back and forth about how X or Y character is pretty good now forever, but "pretty good" is completely relative to the other characters, and it doesn't really make sense to make any assertions until we collect a certain amount of tournament data.

I too would like to see less "I think this needs to be changed" and more "I'm finding this character to have a hard time against this other character." 22 pages in and people still aren't adhering to the guidelines laid out in the first post. They're there for a reason.

 

[Mattnumbers]

What we need is a discussion topic to get some stuff going, people talk about changes because they can't think of anything else to talk about.

So lets get a general consensus of something that people want to discuss.

 

[CountKaiser]

I've tried to come up with discussion, but it only lasts for a few posts.

As for a topic, how about that MK?

 

[MK26]

Can I yell at more people who think their stage list is right even though it's different from my stage list?

Also, MK's combos get wrecked by good DI. Play him like you play vKnight if you want to get anywhere.

 

[CountKaiser]

Really?

How would one go about DIing MK's attacks?

 

[Mattnumbers]

At the smashfest I went to yesterday a guy tried his usual strategy when doing money matches, switching to Meta Knight.

I still won, which made him mad because it always works when he does it in vBrawl haha.

It's still ridiculous that he does better with MK than the actual character he mains though.

 

[Doval]

Some characters simply have a steeper learning curve than others. For instance, Peach utterly destroyed in low level play in Melee simply because she could win with turnip spam and down smashes. On the other hand, without advanced techs, Fox was a pretty ****ty character.

In the end all that matters is how the characters are balanced at high level play. Whether MK is far more scrub friendly that the rest of the cast matters not if he proves to have balanced match-ups at high level tourney play.

 

[Mattnumbers]

That may be true, but a lot of the time being incredibly easy to get good at signifies that the character will be good at a high level of play as well. Peach was high tier in Melee.

It's not proof that a character is overpowered, but it is evidence.

 

[WheelOfFish]

And it would make the game more competitive if there weren't ridiculously easy characters to use. I mean, Game and Watch is fun to play, but I feel like I'm amazing with him instantly. Like in vBrawl, he's great, but he has very little depth. Every G&W played the same.

I wouldn't mind more characters getting trade-offs in the future like Fox did with the JC shine or Falco did with the lasers.

Trouble is thinking of ATs for characters that didn't have much in Melee... JC bukkit

 

[colored blind]

And it would make the game more competitive if there weren't ridiculously easy characters to use. I mean, Game and Watch is fun to play, but I feel like I'm amazing with him instantly. Like in vBrawl, he's great, but he has very little depth. Every G&W played the same.

I wouldn't mind more characters getting trade-offs in the future like Fox did with the JC shine or Falco did with the lasers.

Trouble is thinking of ATs for characters that didn't have much in Melee... JC bukkit

This.

I'm tired of seeing MK get continuously nerfed. It sucks, because speaking sincerely, he needs it. But I also feel that he needs a few advanced techs that keep him versatile and good, while requiring more thought and creativity. Of course, I guess that's neither here nor there considering nothing's going to change soon.

 

[CountKaiser]

We're doing it again.

For the love of God, stop going on tangents on how X or Y needs a buff or nerf or tradeoff or whatever, just discuss metagame.

 

[Mattnumbers]

So, how many characters does Game and Watch counter?

A lot.

So lets make a list of them gogogo.

I'll start with Lucas and let you guys fill in the blanks.

 

[Shadic]

So, them Link arrows are pretty awesome. Puts pressure on people to recover low (If they can) so that you can't pelt them with arrows. Then he's got that Dtilt... Cool stuff.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I've been thundersliding more as Lucas and I actually won a money match using it, It's a way more legit tactic than I imagined.

Kinda requires a surprise factor though.

 

[CountKaiser]

What's thunderslide?

Also, G&W ***** Ness.

 

[Isatis]

My G&W+ does not do the same stuff every other one does. I hope people who played me at Hackfest will attest to this

 

[Revven]

The thing about DK is, no matter how much someone may be buffed, he still performs really well in the match-up (unless it was a bad match-up to begin with). DK still does really well against Lucas and Ness for example, and both Mother boys were buffed quite a bit. I have never felt like DK is behind anyone. The way he is structured has allowed him to keep up with the cast. The only way he could become worse is if he had no combos. The big thing about him is, once you get grabbed, it's a combo. Once you get hit by Bair, it's a combo. Once you get hit by Up B, it's damage. No matter what he hits you with, he can follow up or just do a lot of damage.

But this isn't always the case, against floaties like Jiggs or Kirby, I've found it a lot harder to get Utoss > Uair off, which is fine, not complaining pretty expected. It just means that in order to kill them, he can't do Utoss > Uair but, either Dair > Uair or Donkey Punch.

DK just feels really well and such that any character that may somehow surpass him will still find himself having trouble against DK.

 

[Alphatron]

I can't really speak much on G&W. His matchups feel as though they haven't changed much.

 

[Mattnumbers]

What's thunderslide?

Also, G&W ***** Ness.

It's when you B-stick PK Thunder while running off a ledge and slide in the air into your own PK Thunder, propelling you under the platform much more quickly than the move usually takes. You can also go backwards horizontally, backwards slightly up, or hit the ground right below the platform (usually this is from messing up but sometimes I do it if It's not safe since it has less lag). You can also use it to ledgehog fast.

You can do it on any stage with platforms really, but if you B-stick during the beginning dash animation you jump instead so you can't do it on short platforms like on Luigi's mansion. The top ones on WW are just barely big enough but it's still possible (although WW is a hard stage to thunderslide on as it is easy to SD if you mess up.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Oops double post.

 

[Plum]

I can't really speak much on G&W. His matchups feel as though they haven't changed much.

I personally feel as though a lot of his matchups got slightly worse. Let's be honest he didn't gain as much from B+ as other characters. It's not like he's running around with his **** Melee combo and grab game here. He still has what makes his matchups great from vBrawl but consider what other characters can do when they get inside him and then compare that to G&W's more shallow combo game (certainly plenty of Nair strings :V)

I feel like a lot of his matchups got closer, or even gaining more counters to his already pretty sizable list of counters.
That's my thought at least.. take it as you will because I don't play G&W anymore. I just can't say I find him fun any more... moar love for DDD I guess :V

 

[stingers]

i lost to a gaw in tourney...

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't think G&W is overpowered, but I do think we should work to lessen the amount of characters he counters because it's ridiculous that one character can black out so many other characters.

 

[stingers]

alright i'll edit the "Number of Characters Countered" in his pac file and we'll be set

 

[GHNeko]

I don't think G&W is overpowered, but I do think we should work to lessen the amount of characters he counters because it's ridiculous that one character can black out so many other characters.

...What characters are YOU talking about?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Gah another double post sorry

 

[Mattnumbers]

Pretty much anyone with low range/priority?

 

[jalued]

Pretty much anyone with low range/priority?

You sure about that? cause in brawl thats exactly how it worked.

But without the ability to combo into kill moves at high %, GW's priority shouldn't be so dominant in his match ups as he has a hard time killing compared to other characters. And its only his bair and nair that have the priority, and neither of them kill ever

so the opponent gets to higher and higher % with more and more time to get inside GW and beat his little light body to pulp

 

[GHNeko]

...Like Wario? Or Falcon? >_>

 

[goodoldganon]

You sure about that? cause in brawl thats exactly how it worked.

But without the ability to combo into kill moves at high %, GW's priority shouldn't be so dominant in his match ups as he has a hard time killing compared to other characters. And its only his bair and nair that have the priority, and neither of them kill ever

so the opponent gets to higher and higher % with more and more time to get inside GW and beat his little light body to pulp

DING DING DING DING

Game and Watch can't kill. He builds damage and walls very, very well, but his kill moves are still pretty predictable. I miss the Melee N-air

Fighting G and W is a chore but I know he can't kill well so I usually end up winning. The damage done difference is absurd.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I played against G&W a lot in vBrawl , but not as much in Brawl+. I've gathered that he hasn't changed all that much, and since the reason he countered characters is pretty general (if you can't get to him, you can't hurt him so if you don't have a way to get past his wall you're pretty much screwed), I figured that most of them would carry over to Brawl+.

Maybe I'm incorrect, but I didn't think his long list of characters he counters had changed much.

 

[CountKaiser]

DING DING DING DING

Game and Watch can't kill. He builds damage and walls very, very well, but his kill moves are still pretty predictable. I miss the Melee N-air

Fighting G and W is a chore but I know he can't kill well so I usually end up winning. The damage done difference is absurd.

A lot of G&W's kills come from edgeguards, and even then it can take a while for him to kill people.

I too miss melee nair. Something to think about, perhaps?

jk.

But in all seriousness, his difficulty in killing is what made me pick up ness. I was tired of my opponent living to 150+ and not dying while G&W would live to about 120 max.

 

[GHNeko]

I just remembered that GaW has a spike hitbox on Dair.


lol. Why does it even exist. xd

 

[goodoldganon]

I played against G&W a lot in vBrawl , but not as much in Brawl+. I've gathered that he hasn't changed all that much, and since the reason he countered characters is pretty general (if you can't get to him, you can't hurt him so if you don't have a way to get past his wall you're pretty much screwed), I figured that most of them would carry over to Brawl+.

Maybe I'm incorrect, but I didn't think his long list of characters he counters had changed much.

Combos destroy G and W. He's not tough to combo (though not easy) and he is one of (2nd I think) lightest characters in the game. Where as someone like Snake can eat 4-5 good combos G and W eats 2-3 and he is in trouble.

 

[MK26]

Iv cosign to bio's custom title...btw, where was it baned? hackfest?