Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[SymphonicSage12]

If we could edit those things so that they could be grabbable or whatever, though, then that would be awesome. :D

 

[stingers]

the midwest circuit is using...custom stages?

i need a link to that, i dont believe it >.>

 

[GHNeko]

Gotta try new **** to help a boring game, I suppose. :V

I believe it. No shame in using custom stages. It's just that everyone is following the herder rather than traveling the path less trodden.

 

[jokey665]

the midwest circuit is using...custom stages?

i need a link to that, i dont believe it >.>

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=249283

 

[SymphonicSage12]

It's because the "herder" shoots down every suggestion they hear and is mean to less knowledgeable people, such as their followers.

~SS12

 

[Dan_X]

Have you guys seen the custom maps in the community map pack??? They are anything but borng looking. They are actually pretty neat looking. Hacks were used to make the maps look a ton more fancy than usual...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

They still are way too limited in their looks. Compared to...say..... oh, regular stages, that have much more editability because you aren't limited in design shape?

And yes, I HAVE seen the stages. They look boring to me.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Have you guys seen the custom maps in the community map pack??? They are anything but borng looking. They are actually pretty neat looking. Hacks were used to make the maps look a ton more fancy than usual...

Yeah, I have some now actually. And I think the Dreamland 64 they made has an unrollable area on the right side bottom near the ledge. >_<

Also, FrozenPopo's Saffron City that looks good freezes my Wii every time I try to use it.

I saw a really badass Smash 64 Metal Mario Stage that messes up/has bad ledges whenever I use it. I really wanna have that stage, it'd look so cool. Someone make it work! It looks like an excellent neutral!

 

[GHNeko]

It's because the "herder" shoots down every suggestion they hear and is mean to less knowledgeable people, such as their followers.

~SS12

....Wow. Way to completely miss what I was aiming at WHILE completely twisting around what I said.


GG.

 

[MK26]

If FD can be seen as CP, why dont we just screw the whole system and go legal/banned?

You get 3 bans for the entire set, and the first stage is chosen at random. Y/N?

(I know two of my three would be FD and SV lol)

EDIT: and one of the tourneys at the MW Circuit has Pirate Ship legal. lol.

 

[Plum]

A lot of G&W's kills come from edgeguards, and even then it can take a while for him to kill people.

I too miss melee nair. Something to think about, perhaps?

jk.

But in all seriousness, his difficulty in killing is what made me pick up ness. I was tired of my opponent living to 150+ and not dying while G&W would live to about 120 max.

While we're at it how about Melee Fair, Melee Dtilt and Melee's grab game? A boy can dream...

I feel as though a lot of G&W's even matchups from vBrawl have moved to become counters against him. At least characters like Wario and Toon Link did, who gained much more from B+ physics than G&W.

At the same time some of the 6-4 matchups are probably closer to even, like Wolf and Ganon who can abuse G&W's weakpoints in the matchup more effectively. G&W on the other hand can only abuse to largely the same degree as in vBrawl because of how similar he is.

The hard counters probably really haven't changed though, with an exception maybe being somebody like Fox who punishes him for overwhelmingly large percents on his light frame and his loss of Bucket Braking.
Characters like Jiggly, Ness, Lucas, and Luigi just all have severe flaws in the matchup that they still get ***** just has hard despite what they can do when finally getting in. They just lack any sort of tool to get inside his walls of Bair, Nair, Dtilt, Chef, and the good ol' Up B to safety if they even get close to finding a way in.

I really don't see G&W's matchups as a problem though. He has a big list that he counters, but he has PLENTY of characters who counter him or even just go even if you don't want to play one of his counters; it just shows that you may need a secondary. Marth, Snake, Diddy, MK, Wario, Toon Link and perhaps a few others I'm just not experienced with are all fine choices.

 

[jokey665]

If FD can be seen as CP, why dont we just screw the whole system and go legal/banned?

You get 3 bans for the entire set, and the first stage is chosen at random. Y/N?

I would agree with that.

 

[Isatis]

Yay! Does that mean I'm smart? :D

Sage, come to the B+ IRC, I can answer that question there.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Isn't the main reason why G&W has trouble killing is because of his obvious attacks? I know it isn't just me, but other people also know that G&W is strong, but lacks the ability to hide what his next attack is. It's always so telegraphed, that it can make him feel like he is at a disadvantage.

Is G&W the only character who really has the problem with obvious finishers? It seems to me like he does, at least more than other characters for the most part.

I've felt that he was that way in Melee too. You always knew just what he was gonna do, but him having big, disjointed, longlasting hitboxes can make his killing move actually connect.

And I love Melee G&W Dtilt, Nair, and non auto fast falled Dair. Though Brawl's Dair is good too.

 

[MK26]

or even something like:

Battlefield	X			
Final Destination	X			
PictoChat			X		
Wifi Waiting Room	X(teams)	X(singles)		
	
Delfino Plaza	X			
Luigi's Mansion		X		
Mushroomy Kingdom				X
Mario Circuit				X
Mario Bros.				X
Rainbow Cruise	X			
	
75 m					X
Rumble Falls				X
Jungle Japes		X		
	
Pirate Ship				X	
Bridge of Eldin				X
Temple					X
	
Norfair			X		
Frigate Orpheon	X			
Brinstar		X			
	
Yoshi's Island (B)	X			
Yoshi’s Island (M)			X	
	
Halberd		X			
Green Greens		X		
	
Lylat Cruise	X			
Corneria				X	
	
Pokémon Stadium 2	X			
Spear Pillar				X
Pokémon Stadium	X			
	
Port Town Aero Dive			X
Big Blue					X
	
New Pork City				X
Onett				X	
	
Summit					X
Flat Zone 2				X
Castle Siege	X			
WarioWare, Inc.	X(singles)X(teams)			
Distant Planet			X	
Skyworld					X
Smashville	X			
Shadow Moses Island			X
Green Hill Zone				X
Hanenbow					X

(list subject to change)

1st column (unquestionably legal) is 'neutral'
2nd column (questionably legal) is 'cp-able'
3rd column (questionably illegal) is 'cp-able at the opponent's consent'
4th column (unquestionably illegal) is 'banned'

(and if there are X's that seem off, it's probably just a tabbing error)

 

[RPGsFTW]

MK26, that list is kinda hard to follow. Are you saying stages like Rainbow Cruise are unquestionably Neutral? I can't tell if that Rainbow Cruise is a Singles neutral, or doubles neutral. Either way, I think it should be CP for both.

 

[CloneHat]

Just because some people are whining about a stage it doesn't mean we need to replace a long-held Smash routine...

 

[Plum]

Isn't the main reason why G&W has trouble killing is because of his obvious attacks? I know it isn't just me, but other people also know that G&W is strong, but lacks the ability to hide what his next attack is. It's always so telegraphed, that it can make him feel like he is at a disadvantage.

Is G&W the only character who really has the problem with obvious finishers? It seems to me like he does, at least more than other characters for the most part.

I've felt that he was that way in Melee too. You always knew just what he was gonna do, but him having big, disjointed, longlasting hitboxes can make his killing move actually connect.

And I love Melee G&W Dtilt, Nair, and non auto fast falled Dair. Though Brawl's Dair is good too.

Well he does have one way to combo into a kill, but my no means is it guaranteed.
Fast falled Nair can link into Dsmash, and when you are able to hit with the right Nair hitbox it as far as I know it is impossible to avoid the Dsmash (dunno the frame data or anything, but I have yet to see anybody shield or do anything in time. But what is possible is SDI'ing to be popped out early from Nair or to be popped out by a different hitbox that won't link into the Dsmash. I dunno exactly how it works (as in what hitbox links into Dsmash) but its basically his only method of somewhat reliably kill.

Chef can sometimes lead into a Fair but that won't kill until very high percents. Also, he can tech chase some characters from Dthrow but plenty can avoid a tech chased Dsmash or Usmash from him because of the increased tech speed and their long rolls.

Other then that he relies on you royally ****ing up and putting yourself into a situation where a smash is bound to happen. He has the potential to kill INSANELY early but lacks the means of doing it. *goes back to playing Melee G&W, and reading fast faller's DI into CG's and comboing into that beautiful Nair for the kill all day*

 

[MK26]

MK26, that list is kinda hard to follow. Are you saying stages like Rainbow Cruise are unquestionably Neutral? I can't tell if that Rainbow Cruise is a Singles neutral, or doubles neutral. Either way, I think it should be CP for both.

No. they are unquestionably legal - no sane person would ban it from a tournament, so why does it deserve to be restricted from neutral status? What makes, say, Smashville more "neutral" than Cruise? And either way, you'd have 3 stage strikes.

@CloneHat: now that i think about it, it's less of a replacement as a restructuring, from a system with few neutrals and a lot of cps to a system with a lot of neutrals and a few cps...

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ideally there should not be any counters in the final version of Brawl+.

It's not competitive as there is no way to know for sure what characters you will be facing at the tournaments in your future. If there are counters, it comes down to if you are unlucky enough run into one of them, which is a luck factor and thus bad for competitive play.

Additionally, you should be able to pick any character and still do well, a character having a bunch of counters doesn't matter if you don't happen to main any of them. It's not a good balancing point to have counters balanced by them being countered themselves.

EXCEPT, in some cases, where everyone has the same chance of getting any given result, which IS fair, but in itself removes skill from the game.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Ideally there should not be any counters in the final version of Brawl+.

It's not competitive as there is no way to know for sure what characters you will be facing at the tournaments in your future. If there are counters, it comes down to if you are unlucky enough run into one of them, which is a luck factor and thus bad for competitive play.

Additionally, you should be able to pick any character and still do well, a character having a bunch of counters doesn't matter if you don't happen to main any of them. It's not a good balancing point to have counters balanced by them being countered themselves.

EXCEPT, in some cases, where everyone has the same chance of getting any given result, which IS fair, but in itself removes skill from the game.

>_____________> What is this I don't even...

If no counters existed, then you don't have fun.
Rock Paper Scissors is balanced and provides counters.

Smash 1-ups R/P/S by allowing Rock to stand a chance against Paper by playing on a hot surface instead of a desk[ example of stage picking].

Ideally everyone should just stand a reasonable chance of winning[at comparable skill levels], not be a 90:10 matchup if you chose a "counter" character.

What you're saying would severely limit the skill portion of the game, since there would be no need to LEARN matchups because you'll end up even no matter what.

Counter systems mean that character A is countered by character B,C, and E, so the player spends more time getting better against B,C, and E, and not caring as much as D, because it is a less likely opponent to face.

-DD

 

[Mattnumbers]

I said no counters, which is a 70:30 or higher matchup. 65:35 (or maybe even 60:40) and less skewed are still fine. Thus, you have characters with advantages over others while not actually having it be very difficult for you to win simply because the other person mains a counter.

And no, just because characters are evenly matched does not mean the game is boring. It's just that one of the best ways to MAKE the characters evenly matched (making them all very similar) is boring.

"Boring" is completely subjective anyways.

 

[freezinboi280]

I think i'll keep using the Nightly Builds version. I'm not really comfortable with the changes made with the Zelda/Shiek transformation. You're vulnerable for a very long time.

 

[D.B.K.]

I think i'll keep using the Nightly Builds version. I'm not really comfortable with the changes made with the Zelda/Shiek transformation. You're vulnerable for a very long time.

You also have IASA as soon as the transformation is over. It seems like a good trade off to me.

 

[freezinboi280]

oh I didnt read the description of the change until now. does it mean that you'll be able to move instantly after the transformation?

 

[leafgreen386]

Ideally there should not be any counters in the final version of Brawl+.

It's not competitive as there is no way to know for sure what characters you will be facing at the tournaments in your future. If there are counters, it comes down to if you are unlucky enough run into one of them, which is a luck factor and thus bad for competitive play.

Additionally, you should be able to pick any character and still do well, a character having a bunch of counters doesn't matter if you don't happen to main any of them. It's not a good balancing point to have counters balanced by them being countered themselves.

EXCEPT, in some cases, where everyone has the same chance of getting any given result, which IS fair, but in itself removes skill from the game.

1) You mean "hard counters." Not "counters." A 55-45 matchup is still a counter matchup, even if just barely.

2) I don't know why you're even bringing this up when we were just talking about stages.

edit: @freezing: You have increased vulnerability in the beginning, but once you're invulnerable, you regain the ability to act again as the new character the moment your invincibility ends. It removes load times from being a factor in the punishability since all the vulnerable frames are up front.

 

[MK26]

yeah, uh...way to ruin the topic of the thread...back to stages plz?

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF Ninja'd

 

[Mattnumbers]

Sorry, I'll get back to stages, but I thought hard counter was 80:20, and counter was 70:30.

Anyways, I actually really dislike how people seem to think FD is such a fair stage. Just because it is the plainest does not mean that it advantages everyone the same for obvious reasons. BF SV and PS2 are the three most balanced in my opinion.

 

[B3Brawler]

Sorry, I'll get back to stages, but I thought hard counter was 80:20, and counter was 70:30.

Anyways, I actually really dislike how people seem to think FD is such a fair stage. Just because it is the plainest does not mean that it advantages everyone the same for obvious reasons. BF SV and PS2 are the three most balanced in my opinion.

Marth+BF=good timez.

DeDeDe team+ Warioware=not enough space lol

 

[leafgreen386]

Sorry, I'll get back to stages, but I thought hard counter was 80:20, and counter was 70:30.

Anyways, I actually really dislike how people seem to think FD is such a fair stage. Just because it is the plainest does not mean that it advantages everyone the same for obvious reasons. BF SV and PS2 are the three most balanced in my opinion.

Uh... SV is basically another FD as far as the onstage game goes. The platform is never over the stage long enough to ever provide anything more than a minor distraction... occasionally you'll get platform juggled there, but it doesn't ever last long. The main difference between them is the edgegame when the platform is there, since it changes the way a player is able to recover.

And soft counter is basically either a 55:45 or 60:40. Hard counter is generally considered 70:30 or worse. Depending on who you ask, 65:35 is either a soft counter or a hard counter.

 

[Alphatron]

Personally, I've always despised battlefield. But its easily more fair of a stage than FD. On the topic of Lylat Cruise, I never knew you had to aim above the ledge. Then again, only Fox/Falco seem to have a problem recovering(as in they get pushed underneath the stage).

Also, Game and Watch is still easier to play than Meta Knight.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

Is the stage ghost in Yoshi's Island still completely random? I would really like it if it had some sort of periodic motion much like the cloud guy in Melee. If it were somewhat predictable, then I could very easily see some strategic value for it, such as saving falling Peaches/Jigglies and lolwut mindgames for platform canceled aerials into uber combos. Highly situational, though.

Shying away from recommendations for future builds, I don't really see CP vs. neutral stages that much of an issue. Didn't we resolve this with the back-and-forth elimination system implemented a while ago?

 

[Revven]

does it mean that you'll be able to move instantly after the transformation?

Yes.

10chars

 

[MK26]

smk, im curious about your sig...

/offtopic

So...how about stages? Do we want/need a revamp of the system?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Uh... SV is basically another FD as far as the onstage game goes. The platform is never over the stage long enough to ever provide anything more than a minor distraction... occasionally you'll get platform juggled there, but it doesn't ever last long. The main difference between them is the edgegame when the platform is there, since it changes the way a player is able to recover.

And soft counter is basically either a 55:45 or 60:40. Hard counter is generally considered 70:30 or worse. Depending on who you ask, 65:35 is either a soft counter or a hard counter.

Not only is smashville much smaller than FD, but it also has different ledges.

The combination of the platform, which is pretty long and can serve a main purpose of letting you avoid projectiles more easily, and the small stage size makes it much less beneficial to characters like Falco.


And I say we don't change the stage system, especially not so arbitrarily.

 

[MK26]

But what about getting rid of the distinction between neutral and counterpick, and having all legal stages (bar the struck ones) available for a random select for the first stage choice? Stages will always have characters that have advantages or disadvantages on them, what makes Smashville more neutral than Pictochat? Why should the flat stages be enshrined, even when some characters absolutely destroy other characters on these so-called fair stages?

 

[Mattnumbers]

People have counterpicks because they WANT to go to neutral stages.

People always forget that you CAN play on a banned stage: you just have to get your opponent to agree to it.

Most people want neutrals so that they can play on a stage that they feel is more fair and has less gimmicks and changes than the other ones.

Some stages give more of an advantage to certain characters than others do.

 

[MK26]

But the question is "Why do they feel more fair?"

And anyway, in a system with ~20 stages available for random select, wouldn't you expect to get a sizeable amount of stage bans? Maybe 3-5?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Having a system with an small, odd number of neutral stages is so much more convenient and makes the CP system much more organized.

As for why smashville is more balanced than Pictochat, Smashville follows a set order that never does anything unexpected, whereas Pictochat goes to one of many different things randomly, some of which can kill you if you happen to be heading in a certain direction when they appear.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Having a system with an small, odd number of neutral stages is so much more convenient and makes the CP system much more organized.
.

Same thoughts here. I'd rather not have soo many stages on, especially stages that are not liked by many people as it is. And having them as neutrals makes it worse. I'm good with just one ban and a few good stages.