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Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

Machiavelli.CF

Ivy of the West
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B+ Tier List​
Viable Tier
Everyone not in the Unviable Tier

Unviable Tier
Ike
Sonic

yo.
ive mained sonic and ike since i first got Brawl and i mained Marth back in Melee
my ike doesnt get too much competition so i cant really say if hes bad, i dont think he is
but...
i'd like it if at the peak of aether he has a bit more grab range for the ledge
its kinda ******** how he cant grab the ledge even when he's touching it, if he's 1 inch below it...

and sonic, he needs moar speed...

imo
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
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My opinion Sonic is really fine......Ike is the ONLY character who might need future help....HOWEVER, some people seem to do really well with him so I don't know....



Responding to Buffer comments I understand what your saying kupo. And I agree with many of your points. Especially the timing ones.....


However, I view the buffer code as an important and integral part of B+. There are certain (Tricks) that certain characters can do with a buffer above X frames. If the buffer is below X, the trick cannot be buffered and it will not be performed. On the other hand going above Y (Y being higher than X) looses precision. So optimally its better to play at X or X+1. Playing at a lower buffer I suppose is possible to relearn many of the tricks timing but when I feel the fluidness of the character has changed due to different input timings. Thats my experience. Ultimatly, it leads to different play styles than what I would like to achieve.

What really gets crazy here is that Some characters actually play better at DIFFERENT BUFFERS. At least that is my experience. For example, I play Link on 50-60 buffer for a few reverse arrow cancel tricks. However, when I switch to say Yoshi, I may play 40 buffer for more precision and tighter timing which seems to help my DJC game.

Therefore, since I play a few characters at different buffers, I think the code is extremely important. You can go out of your way to tell me "you can do it at a lower buffer if you learn the timing" but I'll just reply with "I could, but then my character doesn't seem fluid to me. It just doesn't seem natural." Therefore since I believe some characters do better under different buffers, I think its very important to keep it customizable. I don't want to say its a character balance issue because its not but if somebody shared my thought process, I'm sure they could try to argue it.


However, all of that is my personal experience: you may have had a different experience and may disagree as you can play all characters with the same buffer. If that is so, good for you. I wish I were as awesome as you.

Edit: One further note: I always viewed B+ as more of a "community" thing for people who disliked brawl and is INSPIRED by competition. That is, competition is a main focus of B+ but it is not the ONLY driver. The FUN factor still must be taken into account. If the game isn't FUN why play it? Personally I also think customizing the buffer adds A LOT to the FUN factor.
 

DarkDragoon

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All I know is that when I play with buffer I make more mistakes[somehow]. When I play with 0 buffer, I feel like I'm in control...so I feel buffer is really just a preference thing. If you're going to set a standard buffer, then go for it I guess. I don't see how buffer is FUN though LOL. Its just a setting which isn't noticeable to anyone but the player using it.


And Ike is fine...I don't have a problem playing him at all, and I don't even main the guy. Just focus on off-the-top kills on any character you can't pin down long enough to kill off the side.

Sonic is fine too. Just crouch cancel his dash and attack...with like...anything...and its too good. Plus he got all those Spin Dash combo buffs and stuff...

Yea, everything is fine. I figured out Falco too.

-DD
 

timothyung

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
948
Location
Hong Kong
All I know is that when I play with buffer I make more mistakes[somehow]. When I play with 0 buffer, I feel like I'm in control...so I feel buffer is really just a preference thing. If you're going to set a standard buffer, then go for it I guess. I don't see how buffer is FUN though LOL. Its just a setting which isn't noticeable to anyone but the player using it.
-DD
You like 0 buffer more. You find it more fun to play with 0 buffer. If you're forced to play at 10 buffer, obviously you'll find it less fun, unless you like losing your control
 

jalued

Smash Lord
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Messages
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somewhere cold and dreary
You like 0 buffer more. You find it more fun to play with 0 buffer. If you're forced to play at 10 buffer, obviously you'll find it less fun, unless you like losing your control
maybe there should be a shorter range of buffer options, say from 0 - 5. as then there is still character preference, but not enoiugh gap to allow for easyer control of said character
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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Apr 27, 2006
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7,550
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Cleveland, Ohio
maybe there should be a shorter range of buffer options, say from 0 - 5. as then there is still character preference, but not enoiugh gap to allow for easyer control of said character
All that will do is force someone who likes their default vBrawl buffer to adjust to a frame input of something that, they may never get used to and may wind up blasting the game for "not feeling right".

This was already proposed and it's not happening. Limiting something like that also affects WiFi, with people who need to use the full frames on WiFi. The WBR would not like to create a separate set again just for WiFi, it makes things way too confusing and a LOT more troublesome for those who also like to play offline. Having to constantly switch between GCTs or Snapshots would be extremely annoying, especially when it is for only one mod and not two.
 

MK26

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i agree completely with swordplay. 110%. Single frames of buffer are huge, so how can you expect someone who's used to 100% buffer, knows the positives and negatives of that buffer, and is used to that buffer, to suddenly have to adapt to a 5-frame switch?

Personally, i play the majority of my characters at 40 buffer. It generally feels right (even with Bowser, as i can claw-hop semi-consistently at 40 but probably shold raise it). But in the cases of 2 characters, i absolutely cannot play at 40. Falcon feels clunky and slow, and Olimar feels non-responsive. So, what do I do? I test out some buffers, and, lo and behold, I need to change it by ONE FRAME each time. I now play falcon at 30 and Oli at 50. And they feel absolutely perfect. Now, you're telling me you're forcing me to play them both at 40? Hell no. I need the increased control over falcon, and i need the increased sensitivity for oli. That's how i roll. sure i could learn, but why do i have to harness a new buffer when the one i have rides just fine?
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
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Mar 14, 2008
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Boston, MA
This is the most pointless arguement ever. Kupo, you're making a big deal of nothing, really you are. As far as competetive gaming is concerned your point is moot. Take PC shooters such as CSS (Counter Strike: Source) for example. In a competitive setting you aren't required to use a particular mouse. Some mouses, the G5 for example, have extremely high sensivity levels, which, can boost acuracy quite a bit, giving the player more finesse control. Conversely, I have nothing but my regular mouse, nothing fancy at all. Just a Microsoft 2 button scroll wheel optical mouse. I contend fairly well with those who have "performance enhancing mouses" simply because I'm so use to my mouse, and it's sensitivity. I pull off headshots just as much if not more than them, even though I should be disadvantaged. It all comes down to prefernce, and what feels right.

I switch my buffer depending on the character I'm sporting. Specifically, I use 40-60 for Falco, 60 for Ness, and said settings feel great to me.

As far as Ness's Fair goes, i feel some people made a huge deal of nothing. It has tiny range. Most other aerials have better range, and can beat it out. It has to be spaced properly. the enemy can also DI down and away to escape it. It's one if Ness's most useful moves in that it is the basis of his combo game. I don't see how this gives him an unfair advantage over many other characters. Marth still has disjointed hitboxes (range) and priority over his fair. In addition, his very own Fair is the basis for his own combo game, being able to combo into itself, even at high percents, and it leads into finishing aerial attacks, one of which being his Dair spike. How can Ness have a similar tactic and it be deemed OP by a few people? The enemy needs only to space his attacks and himself as to avoid the Fair, and that's entirely doable.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Buffer argument is stupid.

Some people play better with low buffer, some play better with high buffer.

I play worse with high buffer. Does that mean I should penalize those who play better and remove the option? Its like saying we should force all players to use a gamecube controller when clearly there are those who prefer other (lamer) controllers.
 

o-Serin-o

I think 56 nights crazy
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Buffer argument is stupid.

Some people play better with low buffer, some play better with high buffer.

I play worse with high buffer. Does that mean I should penalize those who play better and remove the option? Its like saying we should force all players to use a gamecube controller when clearly there are those who prefer other (lamer) controllers.
:mad: Wiimote + Nunchuck ftw!


I could really care less about buffering. I like it both ways.

... No homo...
 

timothyung

Smash Ace
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Hong Kong
*buffer,:CS example, Ness Fair*
Or, limiting the speed of your cursor.

And yeah, some people yell for a change without even trying to find a way to counter a strategy. We should only ask for a change when something is proven to be imbalanced.
 

Mattnumbers

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Mouse sensitivity doesn't actually apply to an argument for buffer but this argument is over so whatever. I would just like to point out that if we had to we could just have a certain buffer range as part of the tourney rules, that way you wouldn't have to switch codes.
 

timothyung

Smash Ace
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Hong Kong
Mouse sensitivity doesn't actually apply to an argument for buffer but this argument is over so whatever. I would just like to point out that if we had to we could just have a certain buffer range as part of the tourney rules, that way you wouldn't have to switch codes.
OK. 0-10 frames.
/discussion
 

shanus

Smash Hero
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Messages
6,055
its amazing how all this forum really serves to accomplish is complaining.

How about say, some intelligent match-up or stage discussion?
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
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Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
Buffer limits in a tourney environment doesn't work at all. If I wasn't posting from a psp, I'd explain why.
 

Mattnumbers

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its amazing how all this forum really serves to accomplish is complaining.

How about say, some intelligent match-up or stage discussion?
Complaining? Or constructive criticism? Although there is some baseless complaining most of the points brought up have a backing that the person gives. Constructive Criticism is a good thing, it helps things improve. But I do agree that since this set will be out for a while we should not talk about changes and talk about this as if it was a static game.
 

o-Serin-o

I think 56 nights crazy
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I wonder if we can get Rajam to make a B+ matchup chart. And if we can, separate the Brawl+ character discussion to separate forums so you can discuss your matchups without having to find it amongst other character matchup discussions.
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,269
I wonder if we can get Rajam to make a B+ matchup chart. And if we can, separate the Brawl+ character discussion to separate forums so you can discuss your matchups without having to find it amongst other character matchup discussions.
inb4Neko

And I'd rather see Onett as counterpick before Curcuit.
 

Mattnumbers

Smash Master
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I think lots of walk-off stages could be CP's as long as they have the extended edges fix so that edge camping is hard without damaging yourself.

Maybe up the rate at which you get hurt when offscreen as well.

EDIT: Also, a matchup chart would be nice to have, even if it's inaccurate you can always change it as new info arrives.

It would also help a lot in determining what buffs to give lackluster characters and which characters are lackluster in the first place.
 

Mattnumbers

Smash Master
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AiB character boards is only inhabited by people from SWF so you won't really have the same problems there as you would in other parts of it.

SWF won't let us have boards so just deal with it, it's not that bad since it's pretty much just SWF with a different skin/annoying logoff system (gah why does it log me off automatically every 30ish minutes, it makes it so that I can't edit my posts without logging in again)
 

DarkDragoon

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*Yawn* I can make it.
Just gimme some info and we'll start.

I'll post the Barebones one in a bit.
I'm bored enough to update it often.
-DD
 

Mattnumbers

Smash Master
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Could you make the chart, and then let me post the thread? I'm here for a couple hours every day.

Is there a way to give two people the ownership of a thread?
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
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In order to even make a match up chart, people would actually have to finally agree on match ups. <_<

We have yet for ANYONE to do that.
 

jalued

Smash Lord
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In order to even make a match up chart, people would actually have to finally agree on match ups. <_<

We have yet for ANYONE to do that.
falcon vs bowser! falcon ***** bowser generally, and its very very vyer easy to kill him. BUt if the bowser is clever he can also combo falcon (though not as often obviously )

would say it is about 80:20 -> 70:30 falcon
 

MK26

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DD, why not make a barebones gimp chart and put it up for dl? Though it probably is a bit early for a chart...

Also, controllers: Classic ftw!

Also, Fox: move your cursor to Kirby. Don't get usmashed.

Also, stages:
Neutral:
FD
BF
SV
LC
YI
WW (replaced by WWR in Doubles)
PS2

CP:
Delfino
Mansion
Halberd
Siege
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
PS1

CP/Banned (aka TO's discretion):
Norfair
Pictochat
Japes
Greens

I wonder where WWR in singles and WW in doubles should go...
 
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