Brawl+ 5.0 RC1 Tactical Discussion Thread

[Isatis]

<.<

one of the slowest matches ever


>.>

I'll have to side with him

 

[SymphonicSage12]

hm.....what would be the fastest match possible then? I'm thinking like a Ganondorf ditto or something.

 

[shanus]

jiggs vs bowser lmao

 

[SymphonicSage12]

except for the fact that bowser has ways to keep jiggz out of his fat face

 

[GuruKid]

Instead of just one thread, there maybe ought to be a "tactical discussion" forum, so that threads like these aren't mixed in with random hack, texture, program or higuysImadeanewcharacter threads in this section.

Otherwise, expect this thread to be just as cluttered and unorganized as the Nightly thread.

 

[PKNintendo]

Loving the new metagame. I can safely say without a doubt Ness is within top ten.

No this isn't to hype the game or please the Ness mains, Ness is THAT GOOD. All of (retarted)* problems have been fixed, and his overall fighting has been improved tremendously.

*Problems that have been fixed outside of grab release crap.
Ness is far better at killing. He was definetely lacking (he basically only consistently had the Bthrow in vBrawl + occasional bair) Ness now has killer combo's that **** the opponent.

I can see a lot of matchups that were **** EASILY changing. Namely
Ness vs Squirtle
vs Charizard
vs Marth (Round two this time...)
vs DK

and several others. His recovery being crap counter balances his strong onstage game which is HOW IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! (10 Sakurai is stupidz)


For Lucas? He seems similar to vBrawl but the new game engine helped him out IMMENSELY.
No stale moves means powerful combo's and STRONG KO moves.


On the topic of Wario being nerfed... 1 word. FINALLY. Wario was HANDS DOWN, the best character in B+ no contest.

 

[Plum]

I don't know about the fastest, but I do know the gayest thing in Smash.
vBrawl DDD dittos. NEVER EVER FREAKING PLAY THAT MATCHUP :V

I would recommend a little more clarity in the first post at least... Even I'm confused as to exactly what goes on in this thread. There's always the direction the Nightly thread took... A cluster **** of angry people with a dash of smart. Though the B+ community can do better than that (well... most of us can... some people raise concerns... :V).

 

[D.B.K.]

Instead of just one thread, there maybe ought to be a "tactical discussion" forum, so that threads like these aren't mixed in with random hack, texutre, program or higuysImadeanewcharacter threads in this section.

Otherwise, expect this thread to be just as cluttered and unorganized as the Nightly thread.

Or you could, hypothetically of course, go to the AllisBrawl Brawl+ character boards.

 

[MK26]

yeah, we all really should migrate to AiB for B+...

And yes Viquey, that was me

EDIT: i lol at people who say ness' recovery is bad, especially ness mains who are trying to cover for how ridiculous their character is.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

^ I c wut u did thar (@ Plum's post)

 

[PKNintendo]

yeah, we all really should migrate to AiB for B+...

And yes Viquey, that was me

EDIT: i lol at people who say ness' recovery is bad, especially ness mains who are trying to cover for how ridiculous their character is.

Learn to play. For now tourney results are all that matter. MK is ridiculous in vBrawl we should ban him, oh wait...


Ness recovery IS bad don't be a fool.

 

[Mattnumbers]

The Lucas buffs are all good and well, but they still don't help him against key matchups that he still continues to struggle with (GaW/Marth) The Zair has great combo potential, but a good techroll can put you in worse position. The Psi mag upgrade is cool but still situational... you still have to put it out before you can set the hitbox into motion.

If you want to continue in this direction of "a different Lucas" can you try maybe speeding up PK freeze 120% (all of it, maybe even more on the end... like Gdorf Usmash -> jab kind of stupid) This way a shorthop PK freeze towards the opponent can disorient and end with Ftilt/jab or something.

Actually Zair helps a lot in those two matcups since it allows you to play some defense outside of PK Fire. It at least helps the marth matchup, I'm not sure if it goes through G&W's bair or not though.

I don't know, that or speed back up PK fire some... against marth, he really NEEDS that to be fast

My friend is a Lucas main, he really liked all the changes that were made except for one, lucas can no longer use the momentum of his PK fire>PSI Magnet as effectively as before which was a key part of his recovery mind games

This is the exact same complaint that I and another Lucas+ main named CH_R have been having. PK Fire being slowed down again nerfs it's mobility uses and it's uses against Lucas's problem matchups much more than it nerfs it's spammability.

If you must make it less sped up go ahead but at least put it at 120% or 130%. That or you could find some unique way to get around it's lag when it's used for mobility. Bonus points if it's a new Lucas AT (although he already has a bunch).

Lucas can't go even with every character. Not every matchup is SUPPOSED to be even. Character's are supposed to have some easy fights some hard fights, and some even fights.

In a perfect world Brawl would almost turn into a 40 man Rock, Paper, Scissors. Except with every Rock having at least the potential to beat the Papers, And, of course, scissor vs. scissors does not mean tie. It means awesome fast pace snip fight GO!

Of course if Lucas turns out to be Spock and dominate Rocks, Papers, and Scissors indiscriminately then we have an issue. That goes both was obviously (I can't think of a RPS reference for bad(Pinky?)).

Actually no, there should not be any counters in brawl+, it is not a balancing factor as people specialize in certain characters and don't have equal skill in all of them. You can't actually forsee the characters you will be going against unless you know every one in the tourney and they play the same person every time. Ideally there should be no matchups skewed further than 60:40. Now THAT would be a true sign of balance.

 

[CloneHat]

Anyone tried Puff dittos?

Euuuuuuuuuuuugh.

It feels plain strange to play one.

 

[Mattnumbers]

EDIT: i lol at people who say ness' recovery is bad, especially ness mains who are trying to cover for how ridiculous their character is.

????

Have you ever even played Ness? His recovery is like......Olimar bad.

And calling Ness ridiculous when you main Kirby is funny


Although I agree that we should migrate to the AiB character boards.

 

[Shadic]

Ness's recovery is mediocre. It's far from Olimar bad, IMO.

/Mains Link, therefore is justified in "Bad recovery" discussions.

 

[PKNintendo]

I don't know... I like Smashboards though. It's like my second home. Did everyone really go there?
Olimar bad is pushing it, but it's terrible. Predictable, gimp able and many, many more.

Kirby is a top tier character that SHOULDN'T be nerfed imo.

 

[WheelOfFish]

If the goal is truly to make every character DK-good, Kirby will need toned down.

In fact a lot of characters will. XD

Edit: Oops, that sounds like I'm implying that DK is bad. Not what I meant. I mean that DK is balanced.

And Ness's recovery is faaaar from Olimar bad. Even with it being so gimpable and predictable.

 

[PKNintendo]

Our goal is to make everyone DK good?


PS: How good is DK anyway in Brawl + I mean. Because my opinion of him right now is a pretty solid character, but not THAT great. If I'm right we'll be toning down a couple of guys aren't we. If I'm not... W00T!

 

[Mattnumbers]

Olimars recovery is fast and he has the whistle for recovering high, his only problem is when people can edge hog quick enough.

If Ness is offstage with no second jump and the opponent isn't on the opposite side of the stage he's as good as dead.

It's really just sad, cause I just hit his PKT2 with my PKT1 and watch him only go half distance (a very pitifully small amount for an UpB) and then fall to his death.

Ness ***** onstage a bit less than Olimar and has a bit better of a recovery, so if Olimar isn't OP then Ness sure isn't. Although I would say that Olimar is actually overall better than Ness in Brawl+, so even if he IS OP then Ness isn't automatically OP as well.

I just think they might need to tone down fair a bit, but past that Ness is fine.

 

[kupo15]

Yea this is a little late. This is due to the fact that my building had a fire and the water from the sprinklers broke my ac adapter thus having no reliable cpu to use. I just wanted to briefly put in my 2 cents about the buffer.

Also, I beg of you, don't remove/lessen the buffer. The game requires more skill than super-duper button-pressing precision, which is something that just may not come naturally to many otherwise very skilled players. Why place such emphasis on that kind of precision when there are so many other aspects of the game to learn and master?

Without technique, I don't see what other aspects of skill is required from a fighting game but that is besides the point. Now as an answer to your question. It is not competitive to give people such a big range of a handicap. Analogy. The way the buffer preference works now is basically like saying that

"golfing holes are too small. I am not naturally a good enough player to be able to compete with better players competitively with such a small hole that I should have the right to putt at a bigger hole than my opponent to compensate for my lack of skill."

Obviously this is not possible but that example is a visualization of the problem. Now, there is no problem with having this code for fun but IMO, buffer setting should not be preference for tourney play. There should be a bar that is set that is universal to keep the playing field fair so the better player indeed performs better more often.

Going back to golf again, there is a handicap system to make things more competitive for the fun, but at the professional level, they do NOT use the handicap system because a handicap is an uncompetitive concept.

TL;DR

Buffer preference is an uncompetitive concept. The bar should be set at a single setting so that a certain skill needs to be attained to keep tourney play competitive and fair.

Its a fine code for non tourney play.

This.

Buffer should be a preference. Sorry.

If the WBR views this as a acceptable preference for tourney play, it confirms the fact that this project is not entirely for competition, but rather that it is moreso a fan based game.

 

[thesage]

If Ness is offstage without his dj he's ****ed, but Zap jumping fair is an amazing recovery though.

Buffer was in melee so...

I don't really care what happens though since I don't use it. I find it easier to control my character that way.

 

[Dantarion]

Kupo, that was the worst post I have every seen. Lowering the buffer doesn't make the game require more skill, it just requires players to focus on timing inputs at specific times.

If Street Fighter required you to input 236P with frame-perfect input to do a hadouken, would it make the game more fun? Or competitive? No. People would just get fustrated at trying to do a move an having it not happen.

vBrawl's buffering system occasionally misfires and causes a problem, and due to the awesomeness of coders, Brawl+ allows you to tweak the buffer, allowing for diehard players to have more percise control, or for more casual players to be able to buffer inputs allowing for the exact same results.

The buffer system is just like changing your controls, it doesn't give a player a unfair advantage, its just more of a peference. If you honestly believe that buffer preference makes Brawl+ a uncompetitive game, then you sir, are a *******.

 

[Shell]

Kupo, do you play with a full 10 frame buffer, then, since it supposedly only gives you an advantage?

I'm willing to bet not.

What does that say...?

 

[MK26]

Since when has Dantarion been a member of the WBR?

Congrats, btw.

 

[Shadic]

*Bad Golfing Analogy*

No. You want a golf comparison? Clubs. Based on the circumstances, you get to pick which club (Or handicap) to use. One club or handicap isn't really ever the best, it depends on what situation you're in. And just like both, the choices people make comes down to personal preference as well.

Just like in Brawl, the clubs (Buffer) let you change how you act within the situations you're in. But what matters in the end is what ends up on the course (the screen).

 

[Mattnumbers]

I just don't like buffer because it means you can never have an input with a more strict window than 11 frames assuming the person can play with 10 frames of buffer. What we really need is a way to exclude things from buffering.

 

[Dantarion]

Matt, what are you talking about?

Just because you can buffer an input 10 frames early doesn't mean you can still do something that has a 1 frame window.

 

[kupo15]

Buffer was in melee so...

I don't really care what happens though since I don't use it. I find it easier to control my character that way.

Yea it was, but it was consistent

Kupo, that was the worst post I have every seen. Lowering the buffer doesn't make the game require more skill, it just requires players to focus on timing inputs at specific times.

More precision is more competitive. Allowing sloppiness to be able to compete with precision is not competitive in the tourney setting.

If Street Fighter required you to input 236P with frame-perfect input to do a hadouken, would it make the game more fun? Or competitive? No. People would just get fustrated at trying to do a move an having it not happen.

Well obviously lowering the buffering system too much where its too challenging is not good but your missing my point. Using your example, the hadouken has a certain amount of difficulty to perform that and every single Rye (I think?) player was required to have the same skill to perform that move. My point is that allowing the hadouken to have two different difficulty levels, one easy timing and one hard timing (hard being the actual timing in the game) is uncompetitive.

vBrawl's buffering system occasionally misfires and causes a problem, and due to the awesomeness of coders, Brawl+ allows you to tweak the buffer, allowing for diehard players to have more percise control, or for more casual players to be able to buffer inputs allowing for the exact same results.

This proves my point exactly. You are mixing "casual and recreational play" with "diehard competitive play." Having a code that enables the casual player to perform the same action (thus result) easier than an expert player is a handicap. This handicap is ok for recreation, but NOT for tourney play.

The buffer system is just like changing your controls, it doesn't give a player a unfair advantage, its just more of a peference. If you honestly believe that buffer preference makes Brawl+ a uncompetitive game, then you sir, are a *******.

Buffer preferences makes the game easier thus attributes to making it uncompetitive in the context of tourney play. Its not quite the same as custom controls because the timing still has to be there and timing is at least half the game. If what you are saying is actually true in that buffer preference is just as competitive as a set buffer setting, then why is it that the buffer setting is not adjustable in even the most hardcore fighting games? Why is that every other fighting game that is built for competition has a single timing for every move in the game? Even if the controls are customizable, you don't find that the timing of techniques to be separated into "hard" and "super easy" like what you find in brawl+ with its ridiculous buffer range.

If anything, the TOs should limit the buffering setting to a more reasonable range.

No. You want a golf comparison? Clubs. Based on the circumstances, you get to pick which club (Or handicap) to use. One club or handicap isn't really ever the best, it depends on what situation you're in. And just like both, the choices people make comes down to personal preference as well.

No. Clubs is equal to the different moves you have. Utilt, smash, throws, aerials ect. Nice try,

 

[Shell]

Er, Kupo, my statement wasn't really meant to be rhetorical. I am curious as to whether or not you use a 10 frame buffer, and if not, why.

 

[kupo15]

Er, Kupo, my statement wasn't really meant to be rhetorical. I am curious as to whether or not you use a 10 frame buffer, and if not, why.

I use 2 frames because I like how there is an emphasis on knowing your frame data and timings. An example would be how in melee you needed to know your timing for you characters wavedash. My wavedashing isn't as consistent when I switch between characters often or when I switch to like ganon after playing with Ylink for a while. With a high buffer, there would be no reward in knowing your timings with the different characters.

Don't know when I'll be back on due to my cpu problem

 

[Dantarion]

Kupo, how is it a handicap if the better player can also choose 10-frame buffer.

No one is being forced to do anything.
Its more like a "expert control mode" than anything else. Remember, the 10 frame buffer is DEFAULT.

 

[Viquey]

@Dantarion: Haha, well said.

Also, how many times must I say that this game is SO MUCH MORE than precision? This isn't about showing off tech skill! You could have the fastest fingers in the world and be able to execute frame-perfect ATs consistently and still suck and still lose to someone who can't execute a single AT but knows the game itself.

And! If you have the choice between having more or less leeway to input a difficult sequence, why the hell would you choose LESS? If that hadouken move was in Brawl, the players of that character would use a higher buffer setting than they use for other characters and other players use for THEIR characters. And it'd still be difficult, even at 10 buffer. :V

-stuff-

Going with the golfing analogy, the buffer isn't the equivalent of hole size. It's more the equivalent of having the option to wear gloves so you have a better grip on your club.

So I guess we should ban gloves from competitive golfing 'cause it gives some people a better grip, thus an advantage. 'Cause everyone would have the same grip without gloves, amirite. :V

Besides. If you play with 0 buffer and lose to someone using 10 buffer and feel that their buffer gave them an advantage and that's the only reason they won, then raise YOUR buffer. No one's forcing you to play with 0 buffer just to make it senselessly harder on yourself. >.>

...I could really go on forever with these analogies, come to think of it.

It's like fingerpainting and saying you're a better painter than Da Vinci or Michelangelo 'cause they cheated by using a brush.

It's like running barefoot and saying you're a faster/better sprinter than olympic champions because they cheated by wearing shoes.

Etc. etc.

Not that you couldn't fingerpaint and still create superb art, or run barefoot and still break records. But it wouldn't be BECAUSE you used your fingers or ran barefoot.

In other words, the buffer is just a tool, like controller preferences or gloves or shoes and paintbrushes.

And it's staying, ****it.

 

[stingers]

B+ Tier List​

Viable Tier
Everyone not in the Unviable Tier

Unviable Tier
Ike
Sonic

yo.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Sonic mains don't seem to agree with you there.

I don't know about Ike.



And Dantarion, if you have ten buffer and an input has a one window frame, you can press it ten frames beforehand and still get it, thus it has an 11 frame window (one of them is the actual frame itself).

If there is actually a way to make that not happen then please enlighten me.

 

[bob-e]

No. You want a golf comparison? Clubs. Based on the circumstances, you get to pick which club (Or handicap) to use. One club or handicap isn't really ever the best, it depends on what situation you're in. And just like both, the choices people make comes down to personal preference as well.

Clubs with a very high coefficient of restitution (basically a measure of how "bouncy" the head is) are banned in professional golf because they essentially allow people to hit the ball farther without getting any better.

 

[Shell]

It's a trade-off of less precision for more ease -- there's a distinct downside, which is why many people don't use the maximum buffer (other than online) -- not for any reason like honor or ego-stroking.

I'm sorry, Kupo, but I don't think the WBR is about to suddenly change its mind on this one. Looks like we're just a fan-game group after all. You should probably stop playing Brawl+, I guess. No competition here.

Anyways, we could keep arguing about this but I don't really see a point.

 

[Alphatron]

I tried playing Ganon on 0 buffer a long while back. As soon as I short hopped I would cstick/dpad down so that I could use an auto cancelled dair. I inputted this command before reaching the apex of my jump.

But no dair comes out. At all. It doesn't even come out late. Additionally, I attempted to JC shine on 80% buffer. I couldn't do it because I never played Fox and knew jack about his timing. How was I advantaged if said leeway didn't exist? That leeway being less than 1/5 of a second btw.

 

[Mattnumbers]

It's a trade-off of less precision for more ease -- there's a distinct downside, which is why many people don't use the maximum buffer (other than online) -- not for any reason like honor or ego-stroking.

I'm sorry, Kupo, but I don't think the WBR is about to suddenly change its mind on this one. Looks like we're just a fan-game group after all. You should probably stop playing Brawl+, I guess. No competition here.

Anyways, we could keep arguing about this but I don't really see a point.

This is the only really good point I've seen so far, but it's enough for me to agree that we could keep buffer if it's what the WBR really wants to do.

I don't really care THAT much, but I just think it's dumb to limit ourselves to 11 frame windows. That is unless I'm missing something, which I probably am

 

[lord karn]

I was always under the impression that the skill that is being measured in the competitive environment of B+ was not meant to be tech skill or precision. What B+ was designed to measure was general knowledge of the game, including knowledge of matchups (which becomes more difficult and deep due to increased viability of characters), and intelligence of play. Thus, if the competitive environment is still measuring these skills well, then B+ is a valid competitive game. I thought that B+ was designed to measure these things because the developers wanted a game that was both easily accessible, balanced, and deep. This, at least seems to be what B+ has been getting closer and closer to, and is also in line with what I want.

If my above description is true, then having buffering as preference is fine, because it is something that measures a skill that is different from what the game was intended to measure. If you prefer to challenge yourself to increase that skill, then so be it. However, B+ shouldn't force you to measure that skill. In fact, I think having buffering as a preference helps it work towards the goals I mentioned, because people who are used to melee will find it harder to control their characters if high buffering was made the standard.

I personally like that B+ is working towards being a game that measures knowledge and intelligence of play. Personally, if I wanted to measure tech skill in a smash game, I'd just play Melee, because it's already an amazing game. In fact, if B+ was made significantly more technical (by the removal of buffering or otherwise), I'd probably just quit it and play Melee exculsively.

 

[Shadic]

Clubs with a very high coefficient of restitution (basically a measure of how "bouncy" the head is) are banned in professional golf because they essentially allow people to hit the ball farther without getting any better.

And double-handed putters aren't allowed a lot of times, stop poking holes in my analogy!