Beating Tornado: A quick guide

[iRJi]

I'm fairly sure Luigi's fsmash doesn't work because he moves his hand forward without hitboxes first.

It doesn't. The only move Luigi has that beats out nado is Usmash if you start an air tornado. If you are grounded, Dsmash and Usmash beat it, as well as Fireball clanking.

 

[ksizl4life]

ima tornado master!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Since youre talking about nado, you should probably talk about ADing through nado after the initial hit then punishing it. Larry does that all the time, among others. He does it quite consistently too.

Heres a video of Tyrant and I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HUqEaH58cI

I do it at 0:40 and 2:56 respectively.

Heres DEHF vs M2K

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4gshuxWUo&feature=related#t=4m20s

That works if the MK is following correctly?

 

[Lentini]

As a D3 player trying to work on my MK matchup (rough I know) I'm listing off the options I have for beating tornado.
So far I have (besides from the top): Fsmash, Dsmash, Utilt, Dtilt, ...Gordo Pull, and Jet Hammer
Did I miss anything?

 

[Max Ketchum]

Usmash as well, Lentini.

 

[Lentini]

thanks bud!

10char

 

[Staco]

This guide is great.
Must read for everyone, since most of the people don´t exactly know about the tornado physics.

 

[Yikarur]

you should also mention that Tornado can't be regular SDI't because Tornado has no hitlag at all, A lot of people still talk about SDI when talking about getting caught by the tornado.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hallo leute :V

you should also mention that Tornado can't be regular SDI't because Tornado has no hitlag at all, A lot of people still talk about SDI when talking about getting caught by the tornado.

Good idea, I'll add this to the OP

 

[lordhelmet]

It's worth mentioning that Falcon can Knee MK out of Nado.

Good read, BPC. Glad to see you're doing something useful :D

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If you enjoyed this thread, you'll also enjoy my thead on PS2 in the stage discussion forum. About as biased as this. Honestly.

 

[Jem.]

A lot of moves can break the startup of tornado that are actually pretty reliable. ie: mk's fair is a good tool to break the startup of nado and get that 10% in or however much fair deals

 

[Max Ketchum]

Fair will beat tornado regardless of when it starts since it's transcendent.

 

[iRJi]

Fair will beat tornado regardless of when it starts since it's transcendent.

This.

Infact, most of Metaknights moveset breaks nado. Anymore with transcendent priority can break nado.

 

[Laem]

How do special moves fare vs tornado(used aerially, specifically)?

 

[Linkshot]

Clash and lose their hitbox until it refreshes, iirc.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Depends on which. If it's a lazer, then it breaks tornado. Just follow the rules in the OP as normal.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Well, why should it even be done? It's pretty obvious which moves do it. <_<

Nope. Ganon's FSmash is crazy disjointed, even though you wouldn't think that from looking at it. More relevant by virtue of most people not bothering to learn the Ganon matchup.

 

[Katana_koden]

I want to know more about these transcendent hitboxes and moves. I didn't know mk's moves are transcendent.

 

[Kaffei]

All of his non-B moves have transcendent priority except his glide attack & Dash attack.

 

[Orion*]

Fair will beat tornado regardless of when it starts since it's transcendent.

this

i often just do that if its mid tornado to keep other stuff fresh

 

[Grizzer]

i thought luigi's upsmash could go through nado if timed right? since his head is disjointed i think :S it has to be the first part of his attack

 

[Max Ketchum]

Grizzer: I already said Luigi's usmash wins

Ganon guy whose name I'm too lazy to scroll up to retrieve: I think it's pretty common knowledge how disjointed Ganon's fsmash is and that it goes through nado

 

[demonictoonlink]

All of his non-B moves have transcendent priority except his glide attack & Dash attack.

And pummel and Utaunt!!!

 

[RATED]

IDK if I am being Useful but this thread can be good for this thread : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=281878

also I can't remember if you wrote this on the guide but IC's blizzard beats tornado. ( this should be common knowledge though)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Blizzard is TP.

 

[4Biddin]

Figured it's time to contribute something to this boards.

So we had this thread, which stopped updating. Reasonable enough; after all, there's a very large number of moves that will beat tornado (i.e. everything from above). So instead of going down and listing each move that will, let's instead just go over how to beat tornado.

Ignoring the scrawled numbers on this image, these are the hitbubbles for MK's tornado (the repeating part, anyways) made visible. They have various qualities; the upper ones hit at a 30-degree angle inwards, the bottom one straight up with different hitbox qualities if the opponent is grounded or aerial, they do one damage each and they repeat each frame. Also, they have normal priority (I'm fairly sure; it isn't transcendent like most of the rest of his moveset though).
Those last two bits are the only ones that matter. MK's tornado is so hard to beat because you basically can't hit it head-on. The hitboxes on the side will flat-out beat any hitbox that does less than 11 damage. If it doesn't do 11 damage or more and touches them before it hits MK, it won't break tornado.

You'll notice how there's that big fat weak spot on the top. If you're smart, you will very, very rarely be hit from above while tornadoing. Because the hitboxes aren't there, any move that hits you before it hits the hitbubbles will knock you out of the tornado.

However, if you want to beat tornado from the side, just doing 11 damage isn't enough. The hitboxes are massively disjointed. If you hit one of them with a hitbox that does 11 or more damage, if the MK is grounded you may get a clash animation (not sure about this one, I think it's happened to me once), otherwise nothing will happen (that particular hitbox will be broken, but it's replaced by another on the very next frame). In fact, if it isn't disjointed, then your hurtbox will fly right into the range of the next tornado hitbubble, and you'll be trapped. So if you want to assault it through the hitboxes, you not only need to do 11% or more, but you also need a disjoint long enough to hit MK's main body before the tornado hitboxes catch you. This is extremely hard for some characters (luigi comes to mind; he literally cannot beat tornado unless he attacks from the top).

EDIT:



So aerials will NEVER beat tornado, unless they hit from the top.

Transcendant-priority attacks don't interact with hitboxes. This is why falco's lazer and Diddy's bananas will always hit you out of tornado, as will MK's aerials. You don't need any particular damage with attacks like that, but you do need enough of a disjoint to hit through the hitboxes before they catch your hurtbox.

Bombs (TL's, Link's, nades) will interact with your hitbox and then explode. These, in the rule, have hitboxes that will not clash, and a fairly large explosion radius, so there's really no escaping them. Don't get hit by these. Stupid sexy snake.

TL;DR:
In order to beat tornado an attack must:
-hit from the top, avoiding the hitboxes altogether (dairs from the top, everyone has 'em)
-Do more than 11 damage with a considerably disjointed hitbox on the ground (example: marth fsmash)
-Have transcendent priority with a considerably disjointed hitbox/projectile/invincibility (example: Falco laser, diddy bananas, marth upB)
-be a projectile that explodes on contact with a hitbox (bombs and grenades)

In order to keep people from beating your tornado:
-stay above them with it. Don't just blindly tornado when someone is above you, you will usually be punished. If you want to blindly spam moves against people above you, that's what uair is for.
-Space and zone carefully with it if you know your opponent has long, powerful disjointed hitboxes and/or great mobility
-Never tornado a diddy who has a banana. It will not end well for you. Don't tornado into grenades either, it will similarly not end well for you.

EDIT: Worth noting that you cannot SDI tornado. No, really. SDI does not work on tornado. It has no hitlag, therefore you cannot SDI out.

Most of this I figured out while hacking around on MK's tornado in PSA. Any comments/corrections/etc are welcome. Not the greatest help for us, but someone might like it.

I have beaten nado's with foxes dair before coming directly from the side with a short hopped one. It clanged with every hit then it finally went through.

 

[Grizzer]

Grizzer: I already said Luigi's usmash wins

Ganon guy whose name I'm too lazy to scroll up to retrieve: I think it's pretty common knowledge how disjointed Ganon's fsmash is and that it goes through nado

oops srry, i only read in the list of moves that luigi had none XD

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I have beaten nado's with foxes dair before coming directly from the side with a short hopped one. It clanged with every hit then it finally went through.

Yeah I should add a note for multihit moves. I noticed this too.