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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #6: Kirby
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
Kirby vs Falco is probably somewhere close to even. Doesn't kirby have a lot of accessible moves that beat falco's side B (Fsmash/Utilt/Bair)? I don't see why people would say falco wins 6:4 though it's still possible he has a slight advantage.
And Chu is just the smartest player in MD/VA by a HUGE margin and that's why he wins. He still loses to top MKs from other regions...
And Chu is just the smartest player in MD/VA by a HUGE margin and that's why he wins. He still loses to top MKs from other regions...
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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- 3DS FC
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He would probably lose to MKs in his region to, if there were any good ones. Korn is pretty good, but not Chu level. I'd like to see a set of Omni vs. Chu.
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
ugh I feel like Kirby is not hopeless vs Snake, Chu knows how to **** Snake and kill him arond 69% ONLY by just bairing then hammering in the air, he also did that sick *** thing, swallow me, spit me under SV and UAIR me, **** was beast and killed me =( we went 3-2 I almost lost.
You kept trying to grab and jab when he rolled, when realistically your best option was pivot grab as it would hit before he could crouch and put you out of harm's way if you missed.
But yeah its pretty close between kirby and snake, probably 55-45 for snake.
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
it's hard, he crouched my grab >.> and dtilted me to fsmash, so lame.
If you pivot grab, you get extended range even forward, thus grabbing before the end of the roll/before he can crouch.
Kirby vs MK is insanely difficult, pretty much unwinnable, if the MK knows the matchup and camps like Overswarm suggested.
Kirby vs Falco generally will go to the better player, but there are some quirks in the matchup. Kirby can destroy Falco's terrible recovery offstage, Kirby generally wins in the air, but on the stage Falco's lasers and jabs/grabs give him problems. It's good for Kirby to take Falco's lasers but doing that successfully will be very difficult, as Falco moves around a lot and Inhale is extremely punishable, you have to predict perfectly to land it. I'm pretty sure Falco's Jab beats it out as well because of its priority. One good thing for Kirby in this matchup is that Falco should have some trouble landing a kill.
Kirby vs Snake would be pretty even imo if it weren't for the fact that Snake is so ridiculously heavy. If Kirby can't get low % gimps like Ally was talking about, he's practically fighting 3 stocks vs 4 because of the differences in killing/surviving power.
Kirby is a good character at a glance, but he suffers from low mobility and high predictability. I very very rarely use Fsmash because it's so easy to read and punish if my opponent is any good.
Olimar gives me nightmares.
ICs probably have a huge advantage but I've only lost to Lain's ICs. It's a horribly boring matchup.
Kirby vs Falco generally will go to the better player, but there are some quirks in the matchup. Kirby can destroy Falco's terrible recovery offstage, Kirby generally wins in the air, but on the stage Falco's lasers and jabs/grabs give him problems. It's good for Kirby to take Falco's lasers but doing that successfully will be very difficult, as Falco moves around a lot and Inhale is extremely punishable, you have to predict perfectly to land it. I'm pretty sure Falco's Jab beats it out as well because of its priority. One good thing for Kirby in this matchup is that Falco should have some trouble landing a kill.
Kirby vs Snake would be pretty even imo if it weren't for the fact that Snake is so ridiculously heavy. If Kirby can't get low % gimps like Ally was talking about, he's practically fighting 3 stocks vs 4 because of the differences in killing/surviving power.
This sums it up pretty well.ESAM said:
Kirby is a good character at a glance, but he suffers from low mobility and high predictability. I very very rarely use Fsmash because it's so easy to read and punish if my opponent is any good.
Olimar gives me nightmares.
ICs probably have a huge advantage but I've only lost to Lain's ICs. It's a horribly boring matchup.
Nah, MK doesn't destroy Kirby. No offense, but I think it's just you that gets destroyed. I mean, you very very rarely use fsmash? Too many situations in life reward you for taking risks, and if your fsmashes are getting you punished, then it pains me to say that it's you who's a bad player, and not Kirby who's a bad character. I myself don't hold back on the fsmashes when I know one will hit, especially at higher %s when the opponent will be close to death, or will die.
Ling Ling, a top player from PR who mains Kirby (used to main DDD, but I guess my influence got to him! :D *is proud*), who moved to New England, is ****** face with Kirby and DDD now. I'm 100% sure that Kirby is under-appreciated, and that his ideal spot is like one or two over where he is, above ZSS and Pit (maybe possibly above TL, since he lacks in options too).
Here's a video of my apprentic--err, I mean, Ling Ling's Kirby for those who are curious! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKOh-9xx_p4
I see how it is, mr. arrogant moderator backroomer >=(
Yes, I fsmash only when necessary, and only when I think it will hit and/or be safe. That is why I'm saying Fsmash is an overrated move just like any other punishable but strong kill move. People place too much weight and say "kirby is a beast look at how strong his fsmash is!"
If the opponent doesn't give you an opportunity for it...
Unfortunately I don't have any recent good matches of my Kirby recorded, but here's my MM against steel samurai in feb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeqAU4JvpfQ
Good match other than the severe **** I got from tippers and shieldbreaker. But I only use Fsmash once, hit with it once, and kill with it once.
edit: here's another match vs a Mario I traveled with to this tournament... this tourney was depressing because I had to beat this Mario, and another Mario I traveled with beat the Sonic we traveled with, and then I had to beat THAT Mario too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqVvjs-v3Oc
Again, very rarely do I Fsmash. I don't never use it...
Are there more videos of Ling Ling? It looks like he's a really good player with something of a rolldodge habit >_>
edit: ling ling kirby vs teevee mk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgOarNOOQYw
"he picked up kirby just for metaknight"
*gets 3 stocked*
:s
does he live in connecticut? That's where I used to live... wish I still did since the smash scene is bigger (or at least more convenient) around there -_-
Hey, I said no offense! >:O
I don't know why you gave me videos, it's not like I don't trust you. o_o
I've no idea where he lives right now. He said New England last time we talked, though. And he picked up Kirby for Falco, he told me.
And yeesh... That video was nasty. He kept spotdodging and airdodging as if he was using DDD.
Albert.
Smash Master
MK can just abuse his disjoints on Kirby and Kirby doesn't have the tools to get past the sword. 65/35 Meta
I.E. Lee Martin vs ChuDat (games 2 & 3 LOL)
I.E. Lee Martin vs ChuDat (games 2 & 3 LOL)
^
This sums it up very well. Kirby can bait MK into using grounded Up B and other semi-punishable stuff by doing feint approaches, but like someone already said, mindgames only go so far. If you're beating MKs, they're probably just not that good.overswarm said:
I forgot how horrible the matchup was until I played Judge a couple weeks ago. I got 2-stocked (or was it jv 3?) and realized that I really should use something else against MK.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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Fixed that for you. Kirby sucks vs. MK. True facts.
Ugh, if only people in PR weren't afraid of being singled out for using MK, and everyone else wouldn't be such whiners about Mk either... We'd have a couple of truly nice MKs around here instead of just word-of-mouth good MKs. If anything, I personally believe that Marth and ICs are worse than MK.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Personally, I'm a big fan of Pit Kirby.
'Cuz Marth has disjoints with killing power, and an invincible UpB which can be done OoS. Kirby doesn't have disjoints as noticeable as Marth's, so Kirby has to keep trying to get in over and over again, while Marth just swats him back out.How is Marth a bad match-up for Kirby at all? It looks pretty much dead even.
Marth has a long sword and moves well.
Lol
Marth vs Kirby even? You're killing me Gheb.
Puffball who swallows isn't supposed to beat Gay Drama Queen with a long Stick.
Upb OOS means touching his shield with anything is not safe. Fair no likey Kirby. Can anyone say Dancing Blade and Dtilt on shield traps?
Marth vs Kirby even? You're killing me Gheb.
Puffball who swallows isn't supposed to beat Gay Drama Queen with a long Stick.
Upb OOS means touching his shield with anything is not safe. Fair no likey Kirby. Can anyone say Dancing Blade and Dtilt on shield traps?
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
Honestly Olimar, ICs and G&W are all harder match ups then either MK or Marth.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Completely agreed. I feel if I win against a Marth, I outplayed them more than anything. I still personally feel it's one of, if not the worst matchup Kirby has.
Also, one thing that I didn't see mentioned in here is Kirby's stage versatility. There are very few bad stages for Kirby, and on *most* stages, there are glitches and tricks that he can exploit (suicide throws, infinites, instant kill throws, stone glitches, cutter glitches, etc.).
I realize that doesn't warrant a change in tier standing on it's own, but Kirby has very strong CP stages and his only 'bad' stages are MU dependent.
If I were to rank the ones you mentioned in terms of difficulty from hardest to easiest:
-MK
-ICs
-Olimar
-Marth
-G&W
G&W and Kirby are surprisingly similar, and while I think it's G&W's advantage I feel that it generally comes down to who plays better. Marth is very difficult for Kirby but nowhere near MK's level, and he's horribly gimpable. Olimar is an absolute nightmare to approach. ICs are formidable even without their grab game, but factor in that Kirby is entirely melee without really disjointed hitboxes, plus the fact that he's one of the easiest to chaingrab, means that he's pretty much screwed. MK is just
This is very true, Kirby has more interesting things to do with the stagelist than any character I can think of.
SheerMadness
Smash Master
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In my opinion Marth is the easiest matchup in that list by a good margin.
I feel I should step in and shed some light on who Kirby is and what he's capable of because, honestly, there is a lot of guessing and poking in the dark from the 100+ posts I've just read. (that includes the posts from the Kirby players as well).
First and foremost I'm going to go over in great detail Kirby's strengths, advantages, tricks, traps, and other such favorable tools for use in high-level tournament play. After that I will bring to light his drawbacks, limitations, and et cetera. Thirdly, I will contrast the two and point out how they apply to in-game play between two players who know WTF is going on.
The first thing people think of when defining Kirby's strengths would probably be his F-smash. This is because it has obvious and easily discernible applications: you hit left/right on the C-stick and you KO someone. The reason why this is such a defining advantage to Kirby is that a notable number of characters in Brawl can have a hard time landing one, big, solid hit. Kirby can do this, and it's all straight-forward and fairly easy to pull off. Plus it's very rewarding to plant a giant foot in someone's face, sending them to the sweet abyss of annihilation.
On a slightly higher level of play a great strength for Kirby is his combo potential. He can easily pull off ~20% damage at a moment's notice, and if things are going good he might even be able to pull of 30%, 40%, or upward of 50% all in one fluid flash of fancy footwork. Again, many characters in Brawl can have a hard time stringing together more than two hits, or pulling off more than twenty percent worth of combos.
When off-stage, Kirby has apparent advantages including multiple jumps, gimp potential, and easy recovery options. Multiple jumps gives him an avenue of patiently taking advantage of his opponents as they struggle to make it back on-stage as well as multiple Aerial Attacks (his B-air and D-air being the most used for off-stage offense). When recovering, his multiple jumps combined with is Giant Swing (Hammer) and Final Cutter (U-special) allow him to cover a good amount of distance.
While Kirby may be lacking Advanced Techniques, he still has plenty of tricks and traps to take advantage of, especially as surprises for the unwary. These include the Ninja Spike, the Boobytrap Stone, Vulcan Jab traps, and the infamous Kirbycide.
Now, talking about the drawbacks Kirby has, it's important to point out that the most notable drawbacks he has are also some of the most disasterous drawbacks a characters can have in the game. Slow movement, low priroity, extensive start-up on attacks, prolonged attack duration. This is, of course, talking about higher levels of gameplay as such drawbacks are far less crippling in a casual 4-player FFA with Items spawning every 15 seconds.
When talking about 'slow movement' I'm referring to both ground speed as well as aerial mobility. At higher levels of game play it's very important to have a character that is able to keep up with the player's instincts and reaction time. As seen time and time again, characters at the top of tiers in a variety of games tend to be tose with fast movement and attacks. If you don't have fast movement, you have to have something to make up for it such as range/priority, projectile spam, massive damage, etc. Kirby has none of those. He is simply a slow character.
For instance - talking about range/priority - the best examples would be Meta Knight (intagible sword prioirty) and Snake (ginormous hitboxes); coincidentally both Meta Knight and Snake are at the top of the tier list. Kirby fails pretty badly in the range/priority department as the majority of his attacks are with his feet. In other words he moves his hurtbox closer to his opponent every time he attacks; attacking makes it easier for the opponent to hit Kirby.
Taking a look at the dis-jointed attacks Kirby has we see Final Cutter, Hammer, and Stone (which is more of a pseudo disjointed hitbox I guess). This moves us on to the next problem Kirby faces, and that is his start-up/duration/lag drawback.
Kirby's B-air is his fastest Aerial Attack. It hits on frame 6. All his other Aerial Attacks hit on frame 10 with his D-air timing in at a whopping frame 18. This gives him very little to work with when he needs a quick attack for the purposes of breaking combos, attacking out-of-shield, or just throwing out something quick whenever else it is needed. Frame 6; and that is generally only when the opponent is behind you.
His ground-based attacks are much speeder. His F-tilt hits on frame 5, his D-tilt and U-tilt hit on frame 4, and his Jab hits on frame 3. While these attacks are faster, they're actually fairly mediocre as far as speed goes. This means Kirby will tie or lose the speed game to the majority of characters. Additionally, only his U-tilt and D-tilt are of much use since his F-tilt is too weak to KO (kills about 200%) but has no combo potential, and his Jab is incredibly pathetic (he has enough frame disadvantage from a Jab to make Bowser laugh). Which gives us a segue to the next section of his drawbacks...
The Duration of Kirby's attacks tend to be drawn-out too long. For instance, his U-air is great for juggling, but unless you auto-cancel or landing-cancel it, the Duration lasts so long that Kirby can be hit out of it before he can do anything. And that's not the worst of it, his N-air has 72 frames of duration (and that's taking IASA into account). Looking at each of Kirby's attacks you'll see in almost every instance Kirby is stuck in his attack animation longer than HitStun can compensate. At low damage percentages, this breaks a lot of his combo potential. It also leads to Kirby being very easy to punish, specifically out of shield or from simple dodges.
So, now that we know more about Kirby, how do his strengths and weaknesses play out in a competitive environment?
In general, Kirby does best against opponents who have little experience against Kirby. They're not aware of what he can do, what he shouldn't be able to get away with, and they're not adept at punishing or preventing his best offense. These can be good player, or they can be bad players, but Kirby will look much more impressive against players who are ill-equipped for dealing with Kirby.
Against players that know the match-up, Kirby's game gets much harder. His mainstream F-throw combo crumbles to a mere 18% or less when facing an opponent who can SDI the U-air. Additionally, some characters have specific tactics to deal with it to punish Kirby such as Marth's U-Special invincibility and Snake's 1-frame grenade pull. Other characters simply out maneuver Kirby making it nearly fruitless to attempt to get a low-percent grab (Toon Link, Falco, etc).
So, taking into consideration Kirby's poor priority, sluggish speed/slow attacks, and easy windows of punishment, Kirby's gameplay tends to revolve around his most safe attacks. In other words, Kirby is sort of forced to rely on B-air and Grabs or else he is taking a risk due to being out ranged/prioritized/sped.
Kirby's drawbacks are a direct relation to why he has poor approach options, yet ironically he is in the position to approach against the majority of the cast. Basically anyone with a projectile puts Kirby into the position to approach as Kirby's only response is to Shield or use a Final Cutter shot (and the Final Cutter Shot is far from a 'usable' projectile).
Now, looking at how this applys to specific match-ups you can see how he, in actuality, will usually have the short end of the stick. Characters with disjoints obviously have an advantage. Characters with projectiles have the advantage. Characters with faster attacks, greater range, or safer options have the advantage. Kirby is pretty mediocre in all regards (or less), so any character that has any sort of advantage greater than a mediocre character... has the advantage.
Meta Knight - disjointed hitboxes, intangible hitboxes, faster speed, safer attacks, better recovery, better off-stage options.
Snake - giant disjointed hitboxes, powerful damage-building, projectiles, safer attacks, better KO options.
Diddy Kong - faster movement, better use of bananas (glide toss), greater range/priority, faster start-up and duration.
Falco - faster movement, projectile pressure, greater range, faster start-up, safer attacks.
etc, etc, all the way down to about the Samus, Jigglypuff, Zelda level where the match-up actually starts to become more even. Kirby only has a few match-ups where he has a notable advantage (Link, Captain Falcon, and Ganondorf).
In my opinion, I cannot see Kirby any better than a mid-tier character, and he's definitely at the lower end of the mid-tier. I would put him under Mario except that Dedede doesn't infinite him. Personally, I think Kirby would fit perfectly fine in a Low-Tier Tournament along side characters like Ness, Lucas, Mario, Zelda, etc.
I hope this adds some intelligent insight for everyone.
First and foremost I'm going to go over in great detail Kirby's strengths, advantages, tricks, traps, and other such favorable tools for use in high-level tournament play. After that I will bring to light his drawbacks, limitations, and et cetera. Thirdly, I will contrast the two and point out how they apply to in-game play between two players who know WTF is going on.
The first thing people think of when defining Kirby's strengths would probably be his F-smash. This is because it has obvious and easily discernible applications: you hit left/right on the C-stick and you KO someone. The reason why this is such a defining advantage to Kirby is that a notable number of characters in Brawl can have a hard time landing one, big, solid hit. Kirby can do this, and it's all straight-forward and fairly easy to pull off. Plus it's very rewarding to plant a giant foot in someone's face, sending them to the sweet abyss of annihilation.
On a slightly higher level of play a great strength for Kirby is his combo potential. He can easily pull off ~20% damage at a moment's notice, and if things are going good he might even be able to pull of 30%, 40%, or upward of 50% all in one fluid flash of fancy footwork. Again, many characters in Brawl can have a hard time stringing together more than two hits, or pulling off more than twenty percent worth of combos.
When off-stage, Kirby has apparent advantages including multiple jumps, gimp potential, and easy recovery options. Multiple jumps gives him an avenue of patiently taking advantage of his opponents as they struggle to make it back on-stage as well as multiple Aerial Attacks (his B-air and D-air being the most used for off-stage offense). When recovering, his multiple jumps combined with is Giant Swing (Hammer) and Final Cutter (U-special) allow him to cover a good amount of distance.
While Kirby may be lacking Advanced Techniques, he still has plenty of tricks and traps to take advantage of, especially as surprises for the unwary. These include the Ninja Spike, the Boobytrap Stone, Vulcan Jab traps, and the infamous Kirbycide.
Now, talking about the drawbacks Kirby has, it's important to point out that the most notable drawbacks he has are also some of the most disasterous drawbacks a characters can have in the game. Slow movement, low priroity, extensive start-up on attacks, prolonged attack duration. This is, of course, talking about higher levels of gameplay as such drawbacks are far less crippling in a casual 4-player FFA with Items spawning every 15 seconds.
When talking about 'slow movement' I'm referring to both ground speed as well as aerial mobility. At higher levels of game play it's very important to have a character that is able to keep up with the player's instincts and reaction time. As seen time and time again, characters at the top of tiers in a variety of games tend to be tose with fast movement and attacks. If you don't have fast movement, you have to have something to make up for it such as range/priority, projectile spam, massive damage, etc. Kirby has none of those. He is simply a slow character.
For instance - talking about range/priority - the best examples would be Meta Knight (intagible sword prioirty) and Snake (ginormous hitboxes); coincidentally both Meta Knight and Snake are at the top of the tier list. Kirby fails pretty badly in the range/priority department as the majority of his attacks are with his feet. In other words he moves his hurtbox closer to his opponent every time he attacks; attacking makes it easier for the opponent to hit Kirby.
Taking a look at the dis-jointed attacks Kirby has we see Final Cutter, Hammer, and Stone (which is more of a pseudo disjointed hitbox I guess). This moves us on to the next problem Kirby faces, and that is his start-up/duration/lag drawback.
Kirby's B-air is his fastest Aerial Attack. It hits on frame 6. All his other Aerial Attacks hit on frame 10 with his D-air timing in at a whopping frame 18. This gives him very little to work with when he needs a quick attack for the purposes of breaking combos, attacking out-of-shield, or just throwing out something quick whenever else it is needed. Frame 6; and that is generally only when the opponent is behind you.
His ground-based attacks are much speeder. His F-tilt hits on frame 5, his D-tilt and U-tilt hit on frame 4, and his Jab hits on frame 3. While these attacks are faster, they're actually fairly mediocre as far as speed goes. This means Kirby will tie or lose the speed game to the majority of characters. Additionally, only his U-tilt and D-tilt are of much use since his F-tilt is too weak to KO (kills about 200%) but has no combo potential, and his Jab is incredibly pathetic (he has enough frame disadvantage from a Jab to make Bowser laugh). Which gives us a segue to the next section of his drawbacks...
The Duration of Kirby's attacks tend to be drawn-out too long. For instance, his U-air is great for juggling, but unless you auto-cancel or landing-cancel it, the Duration lasts so long that Kirby can be hit out of it before he can do anything. And that's not the worst of it, his N-air has 72 frames of duration (and that's taking IASA into account). Looking at each of Kirby's attacks you'll see in almost every instance Kirby is stuck in his attack animation longer than HitStun can compensate. At low damage percentages, this breaks a lot of his combo potential. It also leads to Kirby being very easy to punish, specifically out of shield or from simple dodges.
So, now that we know more about Kirby, how do his strengths and weaknesses play out in a competitive environment?
In general, Kirby does best against opponents who have little experience against Kirby. They're not aware of what he can do, what he shouldn't be able to get away with, and they're not adept at punishing or preventing his best offense. These can be good player, or they can be bad players, but Kirby will look much more impressive against players who are ill-equipped for dealing with Kirby.
Against players that know the match-up, Kirby's game gets much harder. His mainstream F-throw combo crumbles to a mere 18% or less when facing an opponent who can SDI the U-air. Additionally, some characters have specific tactics to deal with it to punish Kirby such as Marth's U-Special invincibility and Snake's 1-frame grenade pull. Other characters simply out maneuver Kirby making it nearly fruitless to attempt to get a low-percent grab (Toon Link, Falco, etc).
So, taking into consideration Kirby's poor priority, sluggish speed/slow attacks, and easy windows of punishment, Kirby's gameplay tends to revolve around his most safe attacks. In other words, Kirby is sort of forced to rely on B-air and Grabs or else he is taking a risk due to being out ranged/prioritized/sped.
Kirby's drawbacks are a direct relation to why he has poor approach options, yet ironically he is in the position to approach against the majority of the cast. Basically anyone with a projectile puts Kirby into the position to approach as Kirby's only response is to Shield or use a Final Cutter shot (and the Final Cutter Shot is far from a 'usable' projectile).
Now, looking at how this applys to specific match-ups you can see how he, in actuality, will usually have the short end of the stick. Characters with disjoints obviously have an advantage. Characters with projectiles have the advantage. Characters with faster attacks, greater range, or safer options have the advantage. Kirby is pretty mediocre in all regards (or less), so any character that has any sort of advantage greater than a mediocre character... has the advantage.
Meta Knight - disjointed hitboxes, intangible hitboxes, faster speed, safer attacks, better recovery, better off-stage options.
Snake - giant disjointed hitboxes, powerful damage-building, projectiles, safer attacks, better KO options.
Diddy Kong - faster movement, better use of bananas (glide toss), greater range/priority, faster start-up and duration.
Falco - faster movement, projectile pressure, greater range, faster start-up, safer attacks.
etc, etc, all the way down to about the Samus, Jigglypuff, Zelda level where the match-up actually starts to become more even. Kirby only has a few match-ups where he has a notable advantage (Link, Captain Falcon, and Ganondorf).
In my opinion, I cannot see Kirby any better than a mid-tier character, and he's definitely at the lower end of the mid-tier. I would put him under Mario except that Dedede doesn't infinite him. Personally, I think Kirby would fit perfectly fine in a Low-Tier Tournament along side characters like Ness, Lucas, Mario, Zelda, etc.
I hope this adds some intelligent insight for everyone.
You know, T1mmy... I respect you as a fellow Kirby main and all, but I get the vibe you TERRIBLY underrate Kirby. You might be good, you might be bad, I have no idea, but the truth of the matter here is that you are WRONG. Kirby in NO way is THAT bad of a character. If Kirby is getting you the same rewards a low tier/mid-low tier character gives you after you spend the same amount of time on them, then I have no fear of just calling you out as a bad player. Have you seen anyone else anywhere in the whole Smash community making the same claim as you? In my opinion, it's as wild and outrageous as Gheb01's claim that Marth vs Kirby was evenish.
MY own experiences say that Kirby is solidly high tier, yet according to everyone he's top of mid-tier. I then look around for different players of each character in the same tier AND the tier I believe he belongs in, and figure out that indeed Kirby does belong in the top of mid (he MIGHT still be able to breach high tier if MK stops hogging top tier all to himself). I've never had the problems characters in the lower end of the tier spectrum have had during their Brawl lives, even when I was in USA and using Kirby against high-level and top-level players. As a conclusion, I can figure out that Kirby does NOT belong with those lower in the spectrum, otherwise we would see similar trends in his life as the lower character's trends tend to be.
Don't think that I'm purposely offending you by the way. I'm merely putting the context as blunt as possible to avoid sugarcoating things and making it pretty... The last thing I want to do is insult anyone.
It's not a matter of me being a good player or bad player, that is not up to debate. I'm simply state facts as well as giving my personal opinion. Mind you, I have years upon years of Kirby experience (as well as general tournament experience). I've played in tournaments all across the nation, east, west, north, south, and in-between.
Don't worry about offending me, because you don't. I value your opinion because we all have different knowledge and experience we can learn from each other.
Mind you, I've had to go through all this before back when I gave my opinions on Kirby's position in the Melee tier list. (they had him 7th from bottom and I told them he should be 2nd from last, right above Pichu... who also was incorrectly placed).
Don't worry about offending me, because you don't. I value your opinion because we all have different knowledge and experience we can learn from each other.
Mind you, I've had to go through all this before back when I gave my opinions on Kirby's position in the Melee tier list. (they had him 7th from bottom and I told them he should be 2nd from last, right above Pichu... who also was incorrectly placed).
Dude Pichu is better than Kirby. No doubt about it.
That said, good post T1mmy, but even I, who has always said that Kirby is overrated by Kirby players and non-Kirby players alike, think you are putting him a bit too low. Sure, he has fairly even matchups against some of the low-tier characters, but so do some of the other higher tiered characters.
etc.
I can see Kirby dropping a couple spots on the tier list but there is no way I could see him in a low tier tournament. Everyone would use him for them (if they're any good at him) and he would win them most of the time.
p.s. you forgot to add "obnoxiously overweight" to Snake's advantages :[
it's the most glaring one to me.
That said, good post T1mmy, but even I, who has always said that Kirby is overrated by Kirby players and non-Kirby players alike, think you are putting him a bit too low. Sure, he has fairly even matchups against some of the low-tier characters, but so do some of the other higher tiered characters.
What characters there do you think he should be below? ROB? ROB is debatably better than Kirby, but one spot on the tier list doesn't really matter. Donkey Kong is also a good character but Kirby doesn't suffer from a gamebreaking weakness (D3 infinite) like DK does. Peach? I'm not sure what to say about her, I can't play her for crap but she seems like a decent character, with no crippling weakness, but I still feel like Kirby's better. Fox? I personally feel like he is in general a better character, but Sheik/Pikachu matchups destroy him worse than ICs/insert character here matchups do for Kirby. Luigi's pretty good but still probably not better than Kirby.Tier List Version Four
TOP
S
HIGH
A
B
Middle
C
D
E :shiek:
Low
F
G
etc.
I can see Kirby dropping a couple spots on the tier list but there is no way I could see him in a low tier tournament. Everyone would use him for them (if they're any good at him) and he would win them most of the time.
p.s. you forgot to add "obnoxiously overweight" to Snake's advantages :[
it's the most glaring one to me.
Funny, people are already arguing my placement of Kirby when I gave no definite placement number. Honestly, the entire SBR Tier List needs an update before my comparison to any character can be of any relevance.
For instance, what if I said "Kirby should go below ROB" or what if I said "Fox should be above Kirby"? It means little if I think Kirby, ROB, Fox, etc, etc, etc, should all be shifted around.
@Asdioh
I will argue why Pichu should be below Kirby over in the "Melee Kirby Boards", if you like. (actually, it sounds sort of fun).
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10797294#post10797294
Also, I want to get this straight:
@Count
"I don't know about Chu, but at least when I played t1mmy he wasn't close to Y.b.M.'s level."
I'd like to amend to his post something he REALLY should have included:
I played against Count after I had just gotten off a 3-day Greyhound bus. Normally, that's enough to wear someone out, but I was also playing matches between bouts of vomiting (due to food poisoning). Needless to say I didn't get a chance to play against him much as I had to spend the rest of the night throwing up instead, but I did pretty well considering the circumstances.
For instance, what if I said "Kirby should go below ROB" or what if I said "Fox should be above Kirby"? It means little if I think Kirby, ROB, Fox, etc, etc, etc, should all be shifted around.
@Asdioh
I will argue why Pichu should be below Kirby over in the "Melee Kirby Boards", if you like. (actually, it sounds sort of fun).
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10797294#post10797294
Also, I want to get this straight:
@Count
"I don't know about Chu, but at least when I played t1mmy he wasn't close to Y.b.M.'s level."
I'd like to amend to his post something he REALLY should have included:
I played against Count after I had just gotten off a 3-day Greyhound bus. Normally, that's enough to wear someone out, but I was also playing matches between bouts of vomiting (due to food poisoning). Needless to say I didn't get a chance to play against him much as I had to spend the rest of the night throwing up instead, but I did pretty well considering the circumstances.
Triple R
Smash Lord
lol the Kirby's can never agree on anything....
I do think Kirby is underrated, but I could only see him moving up 2-3 spots on the tier list. I don't think he'll reach high tier ever. T!mmy really did imply that Kirby is really bad by saying he'd fit in a low tier tourney, which I don't agree with. I'd also like to note that lots of tourney experience does not make you good or an expert. I think we've all met that person who tries and tires but is simply not good at smash.
Oh and I do think Kirby vs. Marth is fairly evenish lol
Kirby's placement in the tier list seems pretty solid too me. He'll probably only shift one or two spots up or down at most.
I do feel most Kirby's are pretty down and out about thier character though, thinking he's worse than he is. Not much you can do but keep playing him and getting better though.
I do think Kirby is underrated, but I could only see him moving up 2-3 spots on the tier list. I don't think he'll reach high tier ever. T!mmy really did imply that Kirby is really bad by saying he'd fit in a low tier tourney, which I don't agree with. I'd also like to note that lots of tourney experience does not make you good or an expert. I think we've all met that person who tries and tires but is simply not good at smash.
Oh and I do think Kirby vs. Marth is fairly evenish lol
Kirby's placement in the tier list seems pretty solid too me. He'll probably only shift one or two spots up or down at most.
I do feel most Kirby's are pretty down and out about thier character though, thinking he's worse than he is. Not much you can do but keep playing him and getting better though.
Nice going, Count. I knew your information was spot-on, no missing tidbits of information anywhere in sight!
A1lion835
Smash Champion
I guess I chose a kinda bad time to go AFK for a week, but I have some computer time now, and posting here is probably more important than posting in the KGD thread. Responding broadly to most of the topics:
Kirby vs Falco is near even, possibly a slight advantage for either one. Falco's CG is much more painful than Kirby's, he can camp him, and melee combat is about even. Kirby can edguard pretty well though, and lasers are really helpful. Unless the two opponents are pretty much equally skilled and know the matchup equally well, it tends to be an absolute rapefest.
Kirby vs MK is 60-40 or worse in MK's favor. Kewkky summed it up pretty well with his quote of someone (vagueness win). It might seem difficult for MK if they don't prepare, but if they do, it shouldn't be that hard.
ICs, G&W, and Olimar are all ridiculously bad.
Marth is just plain better than Kirby. He has DS [OoS], larger disjoints, doesn't extend his hitboxes, and has a large movepool. Kirby beats him offstage and sometimes in the air, but that's it.
I don't think Kirby is a high tier, but he definitely deserves to be upper C tier. He's a solid character, but solid can only go so far.
Kirby vs Falco is near even, possibly a slight advantage for either one. Falco's CG is much more painful than Kirby's, he can camp him, and melee combat is about even. Kirby can edguard pretty well though, and lasers are really helpful. Unless the two opponents are pretty much equally skilled and know the matchup equally well, it tends to be an absolute rapefest.
Kirby vs MK is 60-40 or worse in MK's favor. Kewkky summed it up pretty well with his quote of someone (vagueness win). It might seem difficult for MK if they don't prepare, but if they do, it shouldn't be that hard.
ICs, G&W, and Olimar are all ridiculously bad.
Marth is just plain better than Kirby. He has DS [OoS], larger disjoints, doesn't extend his hitboxes, and has a large movepool. Kirby beats him offstage and sometimes in the air, but that's it.
I don't think Kirby is a high tier, but he definitely deserves to be upper C tier. He's a solid character, but solid can only go so far.
guyssssss, i think marth goes evenish with kirby.
I wish you'd tell me what makes the match up so easy for marth.
I wish you'd tell me what makes the match up so easy for marth.
Oh well, it's easy. Final Cutter and grounded sideB are the keys to the matchup. And if we inhale Marth and take his power, the matchup turns into our advantage! We can gimp Marth with his power, because whenever I charged the B, my friends would run in and shield, so i would break their shields and kirbicide them.
On a serious note, it's his disjoints and invincible upB OoS. Your sideB is a little annoying too, but I've learned to deal with it and it's now only a nuisance when I go into autopilot (shieldgrab between the 3rd/4th hits, or as soon as you slow down enough for a surprise grab from Kirby... As well as do some hard SDI away from Marth if you get a hit on us).
PinkMarshMallow
Smash Apprentice
Well because he is solid, he made it so far. I been a kirby fan for so long to admit he not the best nor the worse just dam right solid
.I actually do agree kirby should be placed under R.O.B other than that he fine where he is.
I don't think he a Low tier or a high tier character, he just a mid tier character.
His flaws, well isn't the worse thing out there. People if Kirby need to approach then do it, it not like you have any choice not to, you need to make the best out of it imo. LOL Gl with that
He who moves first, get to move first!
And yes that the most aweful thing to do for Kirby, not saying you have to! He not made to approach, doesn't really mean he shouldn't. Just do what you need to!
Hmm pretty much what I need to say, not an expert or anything, but Kirby placement is fine, now to keep it that way it up to people to argue some more =.=
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Just so you know, our Ftilt outranges side-B too (at least the first hit), so if you predict a SideB punish, you can punish that with Ftilt.
Ling Ling
Smash Apprentice
Kirby is high tier! not that high but imo he's better than some characters above him, there's just the need of actually good players using him. Chu has proved how good is kirby by beating a lot of good some top players even in disadvantages. Asdioh In youtube says that I won that set with ddd lol
Kewkky I live in connecticut, I don't know why but alongside with other states it's New England.
with ddd lol Kewkky I live in connecticut, I don't know why but alongside with other states it's New England.
That's just how you interpreted my overall post. Kirby could fit well in a low-tier tournament because he's so well-rounded and balanced, yet capable in the proper hands. He truly can be played in practically any environment and with any settings. You'll be hard-pressed to find a character more adaptable than Kirby.
I've never met a person like that. Everyone I've seen who keeps entering tournaments consistently and keeps trying shows vast improvements relative to those players who don't put forth equal amounts of effort.
Again, my amazing skills are not part of this discussion since my awesomeness does not affect Kirby's data directly.
But I must say that it's important to get everyone's opinions, from players who play casually to those who attend tournaments across the nation and play with a variety of top players.