BBR Weekly Character Discussion #6: Kirby

[Sage JoWii]

Lolololol to beating some Kirby scrub.

>_> Honestly one or two outliers (Pierce and Kewkky) on a discussion of Marth/ Kirby is a great improvement of Kirby's standing against Marth because it's looking close to a slight disadvantage MU rather than a disadvantage MU.

 

[deepseadiva]

Also, the d at the end of my name is just there for ending flavor. Just Pierce, if you please.

You should remove the last two characters. Simply "Pierce" is so much cooler - the "7d" is so... AOL.

 

[A1lion835]

Lolololol to beating some Kirby scrub.

>_> Honestly one or two outliers (Pierce and Kewkky) on a discussion of Marth/ Kirby is a great improvement of Kirby's standing against Marth because it's looking close to a slight disadvantage MU rather than a disadvantage MU.

Unknown Kirby mains are also invisible :'( .

You make it sound like we're wrong.

 

[~Shao~]

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a large disadvantage, although I COULD see it being that way if the Marth plays the match-up perfectly (as in, really gay and defensive).

But I wouldn't go as far as saying the match-up is dead even. The Kirby has work harder than Marth in order to win.

I think it is either slight disadvantage or disadvantage. Marth has the tools to shutdown Kirby (disjointed hitboxes, range, amazing zoning, up-b OoS), making the match-up pretty annoying sometimes.

Fortunately, as some of you said, Marth can struggle against characters with good rolls. Kirby has tools work around Marth's zoning (deceptive grab range, his roll) to close the gap between them and can put him in a bad position with his grab game and juggles. D-throw specially puts him in a really bad situation at low percents.

And since Marth has trouble setting up for his kill moves, Kirby's lightweight isn't as noticeable. Also, don't underestimate Marth's edgeguarding and gimping capability.

--sorry if the post is messy

 

[Shaya]

Kirby off stage (when Marth puts him there) is actually quite good.
If kirbys just ran off there all the time, this match up would be super special sweet easy awesome.

 

[A1lion835]

Doesn't Marth have to be careful he doesn't get gimped? Kirby has a Kirbycide (granted, inhale will probably be punished), but he can afford to stay offstage much longer than Marth.

IIRC (I haven't played a Marth, or brawl very seriously, in a while), Marth's edguarding consists of edgrab->drop off->aerial->regrab, rinse, repeat. Kirby needs to recover high and watch out for tippered aerials. And, Kirby always has Kuttercide if it looks like he's getting ***** (and, if he happens to land on a DS, he can recover).

^Sorry that that's a bit disjointed.

Spoiler

Do I sense a LittleKuriboh fan?

 

[fromundaman]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find Marth easy to gimp at all. In fact, I find it easier to punish his options from the ledge than to gimp him (Which has a good chance of resulting in a UpB stage spike.).

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth will only get gimped if he either

A) Takes a risk
B) Makes a mistake
C) Has bad DI

If my opponent shows an aptitude for edgeguarding, I will never take a risk. I begin a match assuming my opponent is excellent at edgeguarding

Everyone makes mistakes, so a gimp is possible.

I typically have good DI, and at high level play, everyone does.

Otherwise, you WILL NOT be gimping any Marths.

Also, you should hit the person who told you that Marth has no/bad kill set-ups. Marth has some of the most free kill set-ups in the game.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Im w/ Pierce on this one. Marth is NOT going to get gimped if he's not stupid.

Basically your safest best is to follow up how he gets on stage and try and punish him.

Your BEST bet is to have pursued him off stage far enough that you can grab the ledge on returning before he can and gimp him. If you're playing risky like this you'll prolly get DS but if you can read it you can airdodge through it and punish. Best, risky, reading, isn't what I'd call easy gimps.

If you go for a Kirbicide you're asking to get tippered and this is coming from someone who'd sacrifice a win just to kirbicide.

 

[t!MmY]

If I remember correctly with Pierce...

Round 1 was Meta Knight vs Marth on Battlefield.
Round 2 his counterpick was Final Destination, I stayed MK and he went Falco.
Round 3 I counterpicked Battlefield and it was MK dittos.

If that's incorrect I apologize because I was exhausted.

But Pierce pretty much supported the match-up. Marth has better options against Kirby. It doesn't matter if Marth is easier off-stage, or if Kirby has Inhale, because this match-up comes down to close-quarter options and spacing.

 

[Tiersie]

Why the hell is SDI an argument against EVERYTHING EVER? Sure it's good to theorize everything that you can succeed to get out of with using sdi and how much OMGPWN you can bring to them once you do, but I have met very little people who SDI, and who even if they do so, SDI even a little consistently. As far as I know Snake's Nair is still a ridiculously good move and peach still hits dem Dair strings.

Sure SDI is so good for the theorypeople here that want to prove why every move in the game can be considered a bad one, but that's not going to help anyone. People, if you discuss, discuss real options. It's really frustrating to sit through 200 posts of people whining over **** "not being a valid option" because it can be SDI'd of.

Let me ask you the question right here and now, who consistently SDI's every move that becomes a little worse when being SDI'd and punishes consistently? Everyone that says they don't should not make a ****ing big *** **** deal about it everytime they enter anything slightly resembling a MU discussion.

I have no clear opinion on Kirby's tier list position. But I think that if Doubles performance for each character was to be taken into account for tierlists, he would definitely be able to rise a few spots.

TL;DR SDI is not a good argument, so work around it. Give it but a little mention is a sentence, but do not revolve an entire debate around it. Strings are still in brawl, I have yet to see someone who SDI's good enough to not get combo'd ever. Not even M2k

EDIT: Oh and ofcourse I don't mean Fthrow Uair blah, but then again that **** is predictable as balls. I mean on going strings in progress, like someone consistently sdi'ing kirby's utilt so he can't follow up with bair.

 

[KORNNNNN~]

He would probably lose to MKs in his region to, if there were any good ones. Korn is pretty good, but not Chu level. I'd like to see a set of Omni vs. Chu.

-_- dat doubt

we both lose to Chu last time..

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ Tiersie- You obviously haven't met Mr.Doom or his SDI

Evidence 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyEa_zUXjp8&feature=related

Evidence 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND-yi3IPKXM&feature=related

And he does this consistently during tournament too.

 

[~Shao~]

That guy has some reflexes...

And [2] at what Pierce said. Though it isn't exclusive to Marth, more like almost the entire cast, due to Brawl characteristics.

 

[Tiersie]

One person. Anything else?

 

[Sage JoWii]

Tiersie, it only takes one man. I'd say a small percent of SWF users actually have vids outside the best players so to find a montage by someone who regularly SDIs is good. I actually know a handful of peolpe who try to SDI a lot, Midwest is full of them.

On anything BUT high-level playing, I'd agree w/ Tiersie that SDI is just theorycrafting because scrubs don't do it; but the high-level players do.

 

[~Shao~]

I believe Tiersie is trying to say that, you just can't dismiss an entire argument by saying "Just SDI, 'mkay?" SDI should be taken into account, but not like that.

 

[fromundaman]

Both sides are true. Maybe think of how likely it is to SDI it, and at what level of play? For example, for something as easy as Pika's Dsmash, "Just SDI it" is a good arguement. For something like ROB's Dsmash, it's a bit harder, but still very much doable. A lot of other multi-hit moves are pretty easy to consistently SDI too, even if you don't have freakish Mr. Doom SDI.

 

[t!MmY]

SDI should be taken into account, but it should be held in regard to the frequency in which it is seen. For example, if someone is very familiar with a specific player's playstyle and character, SDI becomes much more likely in a match.

It's also much more likely to happen against attacks that have longer start-up or that are used in predictable ways since the opponent can see it coming ahead of time and has a greater window of reaction. Kirby's D-air falls into this category except you still don't see anyone SDI out of it because they're unfamiliar with the attack. Vulcan Jab is an example of the obvious SDI reaction since the multi-hits are plain and obvious (plus Vulcan Jab has a x1.10 boost to SDI built into it).

In summary, discussion on SDI mostly applies to an attack specifically, or to the frequency on which it is seen that a variety of players use SDI in a given situation. NOT as a means to theorycraft a way out of attack/situation.

 

[Delta Z]

Vulcan Jab is an example of the obvious SDI reaction since the multi-hits are plain and obvious (plus Vulcan Jab has a x1.10 boost to SDI built into it).

But people forget how borderline impossible it is to DI out of vertically...

 

[DRDN]

I got tired of reading after a couple pages because some things just didnt make sense but i wanted to say I am considered a decent Kirby no where near the best but decent. When i was reading the first page it was said that G&W was very good against kirby and i have to strongly disagree. I spent a few days in Cali a couple months ago and i spent almost an entire day facing Mr. Sparkle and when we used Kirby and G&W the matches were mostly in my favor. The bair of GnW is punishable when the turtle head goes down. the fish bowl is another move used a lot which is PUNISHED by kirbys best kill move it has just enough range to hit after. The hardest thing for kirby to do is spike him because the normal dair jump dair just gets kirby hit

 

[t!MmY]

I played Mr. Sparkle down at BIO4 and I personally wouldn't let that sole encounter weigh greatly on my opinions of the match-up, overall. It's in GW's favor.

 

[DRDN]

I played Mr. Sparkle down at BIO4 and I personally wouldn't let that sole encounter weigh greatly on my opinions of the match-up, overall. It's in GW's favor.

I don't think vs any 1 person should count as a whole match-up but I'm trying to point out several things kirby had going for him in the MU and my experience

 

[t!MmY]

G&W's meta game (and tier placement) have been compromised because of how people have learned to work around his large disjointed hitboxes. Avoiding B-air, punishing D-air and U-air, etc. is already accepted in match-ups as general knowledge. Even with this it's still acknowledged that the match-up is in G&W's favor simply because Kirby does terrible against large/disjointed attacks (not to mention the kill power G&W has).

Kudos in doing well vs. Mr. Sparkle, but this doesn't really alter the match-up any.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Thanks t1mmy, you said the words right outta my mouth.

 

[fromundaman]

But people forget how borderline impossible it is to DI out of vertically...

Wait... why would you SDI vertically? You can just SDI through Kirby and punish the ending lag. Same principle as Pit's SideB, but much easier to do.

 

[Triple R]

Wait... why would you SDI vertically? You can just SDI through Kirby and punish the ending lag. Same principle as Pit's SideB, but much easier to do.

I think he meant when kirby is jabbing someone against a wall, and you can't really SDI up out of it.

 

[fromundaman]

Right... but you can still SDI THROUGH Kirby and punish.
Against walls Dtilt is better IMO.